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	<title>Comments on: But &#8230; but I thought greed was good!</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/28/but-but-i-thought-greed-was-good/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Geoff Robinson &#187; Blog Archive &#187; 'Welfare' and politics</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/28/but-but-i-thought-greed-was-good/comment-page-1/#comment-221283</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoff Robinson &#187; Blog Archive &#187; 'Welfare' and politics</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2007 04:09:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/28/but-but-i-thought-greed-was-good/#comment-221283</guid>
		<description>[...] liberal assumptions they would not necessarily reject an active role for government. Hence the conservative doubts about [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] liberal assumptions they would not necessarily reject an active role for government. Hence the conservative doubts about [...]</p>
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		<title>By: mds</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/28/but-but-i-thought-greed-was-good/comment-page-1/#comment-219657</link>
		<dc:creator>mds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:36:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/28/but-but-i-thought-greed-was-good/#comment-219657</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Huckabee is running on a consumption tax, btw, not a flat tax.&lt;/em&gt;

His &quot;Fair [sic] Tax&quot; national sales tax has multiple marginal rates in it?  I must have missed that.  Admittedly, I was distracted by the ticker-tape parade &lt;em&gt;actual&lt;/em&gt; antiwar activists gave Robert Novak for helping to out a covert CIA operative whose husband was critical of the administration&#039;s justifications for war.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><em>Huckabee is running on a consumption tax, btw, not a flat tax.</em></p>

	<p>His &#8220;Fair [sic] Tax&#8221; national sales tax has multiple marginal rates in it?  I must have missed that.  Admittedly, I was distracted by the ticker-tape parade <em>actual</em> antiwar activists gave Robert Novak for helping to out a covert <span class="caps">CIA</span> operative whose husband was critical of the administration&#8217;s justifications for war.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Webb</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/28/but-but-i-thought-greed-was-good/comment-page-1/#comment-219572</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Webb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 01:48:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/28/but-but-i-thought-greed-was-good/#comment-219572</guid>
		<description>Kid Bitzer thanks. But Bruce Wilder who I generally call the &#039;smarter Bruce W&#039; might well be knocking on your door here. He ain&#039;t chopped liver and tends to get blamed for my screw ups.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Kid Bitzer thanks. But Bruce Wilder who I generally call the &#8216;smarter Bruce W&#8217; might well be knocking on your door here. He ain&#8217;t chopped liver and tends to get blamed for my screw ups.</p>
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		<title>By: rea</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/28/but-but-i-thought-greed-was-good/comment-page-1/#comment-219563</link>
		<dc:creator>rea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 01:09:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/28/but-but-i-thought-greed-was-good/#comment-219563</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Surely opposing the war then, when it was popular to support, counts.&lt;/i&gt;

I suppose if Hell opposed the war, you&#039;d at least make a favorable reference to the Devil in a blog comment . . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Surely opposing the war then, when it was popular to support, counts.</i></p>

	<p>I suppose if Hell opposed the war, you&#8217;d at least make a favorable reference to the Devil in a blog comment . . .</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/28/but-but-i-thought-greed-was-good/comment-page-1/#comment-219557</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 23:23:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/28/but-but-i-thought-greed-was-good/#comment-219557</guid>
		<description>mds, I do think it&#039;s pretty obvious that Novak opposed the war.  It&#039;s been a consistent line, right from the beginning in 2002.  The chips were down in 2002, weren&#039;t they? I mean, that&#039;s when Democrats and Republicans joined together to approve the war. Surely opposing the war then, when it was popular to support, counts.  Calling political opportunists by the correct name doesn&#039;t change his long-time opposition to the war and to similar military actions.  

Huckabee is running on a consumption tax, btw, not a flat tax.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>mds, I do think it&#8217;s pretty obvious that Novak opposed the war.  It&#8217;s been a consistent line, right from the beginning in 2002.  The chips were down in 2002, weren&#8217;t they? I mean, that&#8217;s when Democrats and Republicans joined together to approve the war. Surely opposing the war then, when it was popular to support, counts.  Calling political opportunists by the correct name doesn&#8217;t change his long-time opposition to the war and to similar military actions.</p>

	<p>Huckabee is running on a consumption tax, btw, not a flat tax.</p>
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		<title>By: mds</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/28/but-but-i-thought-greed-was-good/comment-page-1/#comment-219542</link>
		<dc:creator>mds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 21:12:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/28/but-but-i-thought-greed-was-good/#comment-219542</guid>
		<description>Ooh, I see preview blockquote and Post blockquote are excitingly different.  Well, anything that increases confusion can&#039;t be &lt;em&gt;all&lt;/em&gt; bad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Ooh, I see preview blockquote and Post blockquote are excitingly different.  Well, anything that increases confusion can&#8217;t be <em>all</em> bad.</p>
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		<title>By: mds</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/28/but-but-i-thought-greed-was-good/comment-page-1/#comment-219541</link>
		<dc:creator>mds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 21:08:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/28/but-but-i-thought-greed-was-good/#comment-219541</guid>
		<description>I think it&#039;s pretty obvious that Robert Novak was strongly against the Iraq War.  After all, he aided the White House in outing a covert CIA operative because her husband had &lt;em&gt;dared&lt;/em&gt; to contradict part of the administration&#039;s bullshit justification for invasion.  And to his credit, he said the following on &quot;Crossfire&quot; on December 7, 2004:&lt;blockquote&gt;More doom and gloom from the Democrats on Iraq. Devoid of any ideas, the party continues to seize on any piece of bad news and try to spin it against the Bush administration. But the president has his eye on the big picture.

Most Iraqis know the country is headed in the right direction, and so do most Americans, according to the polls. Only those Democrats determined to undermine the American mission there refuse to see this.&lt;/blockquote&gt;Yeah, if his criticisms of Iraq got any more scathing, he&#039;d start choking on George W. Bush&#039;s scrotum.

Yeah, he wrote a couple of columns against &quot;nation building.&quot;  Good for him.  But whenever the chips were down in policy arguments over Iraq, it was magically time to beat up on the naysayers.  See also his hero, Chuck Hagel, who has spent years expressing &quot;grave reservations&quot; about the Iraq morass, while voting repeatedly to give the President everything he asked for.

On the other hand, at least he&#039;s sticking the knife into a socially-conservative Southern Baptist Republican who&#039;s running on a revenue-destroying flat tax as being insufficiently conservative, which is apparently a sign of his &lt;em&gt;principles&lt;/em&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think it&#8217;s pretty obvious that Robert Novak was strongly against the Iraq War.  After all, he aided the White House in outing a covert <span class="caps">CIA</span> operative because her husband had <em>dared</em> to contradict part of the administration&#8217;s bullshit justification for invasion.  And to his credit, he said the following on &#8220;Crossfire&#8221; on December 7, 2004:<blockquote>More doom and gloom from the Democrats on Iraq. Devoid of any ideas, the party continues to seize on any piece of bad news and try to spin it against the Bush administration. But the president has his eye on the big picture.</blockquote></p>

	<p>Most Iraqis know the country is headed in the right direction, and so do most Americans, according to the polls. Only those Democrats determined to undermine the American mission there refuse to see this.Yeah, if his criticisms of Iraq got any more scathing, he&#8217;d start choking on George W. Bush&#8217;s scrotum.</p>

	<p>Yeah, he wrote a couple of columns against &#8220;nation building.&#8221;  Good for him.  But whenever the chips were down in policy arguments over Iraq, it was magically time to beat up on the naysayers.  See also his hero, Chuck Hagel, who has spent years expressing &#8220;grave reservations&#8221; about the Iraq morass, while voting repeatedly to give the President everything he asked for.</p>

	<p>On the other hand, at least he&#8217;s sticking the knife into a socially-conservative Southern Baptist Republican who&#8217;s running on a revenue-destroying flat tax as being insufficiently conservative, which is apparently a sign of his <em>principles</em>.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/28/but-but-i-thought-greed-was-good/comment-page-1/#comment-219536</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:57:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/28/but-but-i-thought-greed-was-good/#comment-219536</guid>
		<description>mcd, nope, I&#039;ve got the right one.  I think that if anyone is confused about Novak, it&#039;s the intelligent and reasonable Bruce, who doesn&#039;t seem to know much about Novak at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>mcd, nope, I&#8217;ve got the right one.  I think that if anyone is confused about Novak, it&#8217;s the intelligent and reasonable Bruce, who doesn&#8217;t seem to know much about Novak at all.</p>
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		<title>By: kid bitzer</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/28/but-but-i-thought-greed-was-good/comment-page-1/#comment-219534</link>
		<dc:creator>kid bitzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:39:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/28/but-but-i-thought-greed-was-good/#comment-219534</guid>
		<description>could i draw everyone&#039;s attention to a slightly off-topic, but nevertheless pressing problem?

the proliferation of intelligent, reasonable bruces across the liberal blogosphere.

sure, this one says he is bruce webb. but he sounds just as intelligent and reasonable as bruce moomaw. or bruce baugh.  and i can&#039;t tell the damn bruces apart.

if any of them were offering to crack a tube, then i&#039;d say it was a monty python send up of australian philosophers. ditto if they were making rude jokes about poms or poofs.

but instead, they&#039;re all sophisticated, articulate, non-hysterical blog-commenters who always have good, worthwhile things to say.

it&#039;s a fucking plague. a plague of bruces.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>could i draw everyone&#8217;s attention to a slightly off-topic, but nevertheless pressing problem?</p>

	<p>the proliferation of intelligent, reasonable bruces across the liberal blogosphere.</p>

	<p>sure, this one says he is bruce webb. but he sounds just as intelligent and reasonable as bruce moomaw. or bruce baugh.  and i can&#8217;t tell the damn bruces apart.</p>

	<p>if any of them were offering to crack a tube, then i&#8217;d say it was a monty python send up of australian philosophers. ditto if they were making rude jokes about poms or poofs.</p>

	<p>but instead, they&#8217;re all sophisticated, articulate, non-hysterical blog-commenters who always have good, worthwhile things to say.</p>

	<p>it&#8217;s a fucking plague. a plague of bruces.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Webb</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/28/but-but-i-thought-greed-was-good/comment-page-1/#comment-219533</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Webb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:24:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/28/but-but-i-thought-greed-was-good/#comment-219533</guid>
		<description>Well that is why they call Novak the &#039;Prince of Darkness&#039; and not &#039;Mr. Subtle&#039;. It is kind of like Cheney saying &#039;Deficits don&#039;t matter&#039; or on another level Bush referring to the US Constitution as &#039;just a goddamn piece of paper&#039;. Novak just let something out of the bag that was supposed to remain hidden from the Social and Fiscal Conservatives that supposedly define the Republican base.

In the final analysis these people (Bush/Cheney/Novak) simply don&#039;t care about anything but their own self-interest. And this is not the product of someone with an advanced case of BDS (I plead guilty), instead a man very close to the center of power in this country simply opened the door and revealed a truth most of us believed all along.

These guys will skip church, screw around with other women, spend other people&#039;s money like a sailor on shore leave, while not forgetting to keep a few dollars for themselves. And then try to preach social and fiscal conservatism on Sunday&#039;s.

Novak essentially gave a huge &#039;FU&#039; to the whole Religious Right coalition, right at the point that planet stewardship has begun to put pressure on Evangelical&#039;s ability to restrict the message to abortion, guns and gays. Because most of the followers of the politicized Religious Right are not bad people. On the other hand I have exactly zero trouble with them sitting home on Election Day.

Bob may be so deep in the Beltway as to not know what harm he is causing his Party. To which I say &#039;Good, keep &#039;em coming&#039;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well that is why they call Novak the &#8216;Prince of Darkness&#8217; and not &#8216;Mr. Subtle&#8217;. It is kind of like Cheney saying &#8216;Deficits don&#8217;t matter&#8217; or on another level Bush referring to the <span class="caps">US </span>Constitution as &#8216;just a goddamn piece of paper&#8217;. Novak just let something out of the bag that was supposed to remain hidden from the Social and Fiscal Conservatives that supposedly define the Republican base.</p>

	<p>In the final analysis these people (Bush/Cheney/Novak) simply don&#8217;t care about anything but their own self-interest. And this is not the product of someone with an advanced case of <span class="caps">BDS </span>(I plead guilty), instead a man very close to the center of power in this country simply opened the door and revealed a truth most of us believed all along.</p>

	<p>These guys will skip church, screw around with other women, spend other people&#8217;s money like a sailor on shore leave, while not forgetting to keep a few dollars for themselves. And then try to preach social and fiscal conservatism on Sunday&#8217;s.</p>

	<p>Novak essentially gave a huge &#8216;FU&#8217; to the whole Religious Right coalition, right at the point that planet stewardship has begun to put pressure on Evangelical&#8217;s ability to restrict the message to abortion, guns and gays. Because most of the followers of the politicized Religious Right are not bad people. On the other hand I have exactly zero trouble with them sitting home on Election Day.</p>

	<p>Bob may be so deep in the Beltway as to not know what harm he is causing his Party. To which I say &#8216;Good, keep &#8216;em coming&#8217;</p>
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		<title>By: robertdfeinman</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/28/but-but-i-thought-greed-was-good/comment-page-1/#comment-219530</link>
		<dc:creator>robertdfeinman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 18:45:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/28/but-but-i-thought-greed-was-good/#comment-219530</guid>
		<description>abb1:
I think I&#039;ll accept your modification of my remarks, but with a slight change.

The word is &quot;running&quot;. You are correct that it has been the wealthy business interests who have been &quot;running&quot; things, as is always the case, but they are not the ones complaining about their ideals being betrayed.

It is the pundit class who are the ideologues and that&#039;s whose outpourings we are discussing. So, I guess &quot;running&quot; was the wrong word, I should have said &quot;enabling&quot; or something similar.

I don&#039;t know what Scaife, Coors or the Koch&#039;s feel about the GOP currently, but they continue to fund their think tanks and these institutions are increasingly critical of the Bushies. Are Cato, Heritage, Hoover, etc. suddenly becoming intellectually independent of their sponsors or do they reflect a new viewpoint from those who are &quot;running&quot; things?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>abb1:<br />
I think I&#8217;ll accept your modification of my remarks, but with a slight change.</p>

	<p>The word is &#8220;running&#8221;. You are correct that it has been the wealthy business interests who have been &#8220;running&#8221; things, as is always the case, but they are not the ones complaining about their ideals being betrayed.</p>

	<p>It is the pundit class who are the ideologues and that&#8217;s whose outpourings we are discussing. So, I guess &#8220;running&#8221; was the wrong word, I should have said &#8220;enabling&#8221; or something similar.</p>

	<p>I don&#8217;t know what Scaife, Coors or the Koch&#8217;s feel about the <span class="caps">GOP</span> currently, but they continue to fund their think tanks and these institutions are increasingly critical of the Bushies. Are Cato, Heritage, Hoover, etc. suddenly becoming intellectually independent of their sponsors or do they reflect a new viewpoint from those who are &#8220;running&#8221; things?</p>
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		<title>By: kharris</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/28/but-but-i-thought-greed-was-good/comment-page-1/#comment-219529</link>
		<dc:creator>kharris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 18:44:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/28/but-but-i-thought-greed-was-good/#comment-219529</guid>
		<description>The notion that cap-and-trade is anathema to free market thinking either makes use of a very old (original greek) definition of &quot;anathema&quot; or misunderstands where cap-and-trade stands in the range of pollution control schemes.  Cap-and-trade, broadly understood, is the preferred approach of free market types among all pollution control schemes.  It is only among those who oppose any effort to limit pollution that cap-and-trade is &quot;anathema&quot;.  That trade part of cap-and-trade?  That&#039;s a market.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The notion that cap-and-trade is anathema to free market thinking either makes use of a very old (original greek) definition of &#8220;anathema&#8221; or misunderstands where cap-and-trade stands in the range of pollution control schemes.  Cap-and-trade, broadly understood, is the preferred approach of free market types among all pollution control schemes.  It is only among those who oppose any effort to limit pollution that cap-and-trade is &#8220;anathema&#8221;.  That trade part of cap-and-trade?  That&#8217;s a market.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/28/but-but-i-thought-greed-was-good/comment-page-1/#comment-219528</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 18:28:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/28/but-but-i-thought-greed-was-good/#comment-219528</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;The group who has been running the economy for the past 40 years are ideologues.&lt;/i&gt;

See, I feel that exactly the opposite is true. Certainly in this case (the US in the past 40 years), but also in general. People who&#039;re running things only care about money and power, and when necessary they&#039;ll pay others to produce rationalizations, something that sounds like an ideology.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>The group who has been running the economy for the past 40 years are ideologues.</i></p>

	<p>See, I feel that exactly the opposite is true. Certainly in this case (the US in the past 40 years), but also in general. People who&#8217;re running things only care about money and power, and when necessary they&#8217;ll pay others to produce rationalizations, something that sounds like an ideology.</p>
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		<title>By: mcd</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/28/but-but-i-thought-greed-was-good/comment-page-1/#comment-219527</link>
		<dc:creator>mcd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 18:23:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/28/but-but-i-thought-greed-was-good/#comment-219527</guid>
		<description>8):
I think you&#039;re confusing Robert Novak with Michael Novak.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>8):<br />
I think you&#8217;re confusing Robert Novak with Michael Novak.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/28/but-but-i-thought-greed-was-good/comment-page-1/#comment-219523</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:04:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/11/28/but-but-i-thought-greed-was-good/#comment-219523</guid>
		<description>It shouldn&#039;t be surprising that Novak believes that the &quot;normal boundaries of economic conservatism&quot; mark the normal boundaries of conservatism more generally.  Novak opposed both wars in Iraq and most military interventions in between.  Though he&#039;s now a traditionalist Catholic, his political conservativism predates his conversion by decades and he&#039;s never been thought of as any sort of culture warrior.  Novak&#039;s dissents from the &quot;normal boundaries&quot; of conservative views haven&#039;t been sufficient for most (but see David Frum) to read Novak out of conservativism.   

I think Novak&#039;s mistake then is confusing necessary and sufficient conditions.  Novak&#039;s economic conservativism is sufficient for Novak to be deemed a conservative, but economic conservativism isn&#039;t necessary for one to be so deemed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It shouldn&#8217;t be surprising that Novak believes that the &#8220;normal boundaries of economic conservatism&#8221; mark the normal boundaries of conservatism more generally.  Novak opposed both wars in Iraq and most military interventions in between.  Though he&#8217;s now a traditionalist Catholic, his political conservativism predates his conversion by decades and he&#8217;s never been thought of as any sort of culture warrior.  Novak&#8217;s dissents from the &#8220;normal boundaries&#8221; of conservative views haven&#8217;t been sufficient for most (but see David Frum) to read Novak out of conservativism.</p>

	<p>I think Novak&#8217;s mistake then is confusing necessary and sufficient conditions.  Novak&#8217;s economic conservativism is sufficient for Novak to be deemed a conservative, but economic conservativism isn&#8217;t necessary for one to be so deemed.</p>
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