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	<title>Comments on: Retrieved from the memory hole</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/02/retrieved-from-the-memory-hole/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: guano</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/02/retrieved-from-the-memory-hole/comment-page-1/#comment-220620</link>
		<dc:creator>guano</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 14:57:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/02/retrieved-from-the-memory-hole/#comment-220620</guid>
		<description>Was the looting ploart of the plan? Well let&#039;s just say that many of the people involved in the Iraq caper are unaware of the role and importance of State institutions, so I haven&#039;t been too surprised that they have created a failed state in Iraq.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Was the looting ploart of the plan? Well let&#8217;s just say that many of the people involved in the Iraq caper are unaware of the role and importance of State institutions, so I haven&#8217;t been too surprised that they have created a failed state in Iraq.</p>
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		<title>By: goatchowder</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/02/retrieved-from-the-memory-hole/comment-page-1/#comment-220301</link>
		<dc:creator>goatchowder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Dec 2007 06:22:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I have been told that the US equivalent to &quot;decent Left&quot; would be the &quot;triangulation&quot; DLC&#039;ers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I have been told that the US equivalent to &#8220;decent Left&#8221; would be the &#8220;triangulation&#8221; <span class="caps">DLC</span>&#8217;ers.</p>
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		<title>By: chaizzilla</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/02/retrieved-from-the-memory-hole/comment-page-1/#comment-220262</link>
		<dc:creator>chaizzilla</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Dec 2007 01:37:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/02/retrieved-from-the-memory-hole/#comment-220262</guid>
		<description>Please translate &quot;decent Left&quot; for American Lefties who might be wondering if you meant their subset of the Left in particular with regards to the appearance of supporting Chalabi (seeing that old piece back in play didn&#039;t really work out as overtly funny an emergency public awareness test as Kissinger&#039;s job offer was), or particularly Hitchens.

Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Please translate &#8220;decent Left&#8221; for American Lefties who might be wondering if you meant their subset of the Left in particular with regards to the appearance of supporting Chalabi (seeing that old piece back in play didn&#8217;t really work out as overtly funny an emergency public awareness test as Kissinger&#8217;s job offer was), or particularly Hitchens.</p>

	<p>Thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: c.l. ball</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/02/retrieved-from-the-memory-hole/comment-page-1/#comment-220258</link>
		<dc:creator>c.l. ball</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Dec 2007 00:45:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/02/retrieved-from-the-memory-hole/#comment-220258</guid>
		<description>I read the link and it pretty much says what ragout points out in #12. Klein&#039;s reportage is the same.

No one has quote from a senior official in London, Canberra, or DC saying that looting was part of the planned program. Tim Judah&#039;s piece (sadly behind a pay-wall; it was free initially) has him asking a US officer why they are doing little about the looting, and the officer takes him to a warehouse full of Iraqi weaponry that he has under US guard. He can&#039;t spare the guys to guard everything.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I read the link and it pretty much says what ragout points out in #12. Klein&#8217;s reportage is the same.</p>

	<p>No one has quote from a senior official in London, Canberra, or DC saying that looting was part of the planned program. Tim Judah&#8217;s piece (sadly behind a pay-wall; it was free initially) has him asking a US officer why they are doing little about the looting, and the officer takes him to a warehouse full of Iraqi weaponry that he has under US guard. He can&#8217;t spare the guys to guard everything.</p>
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		<title>By: Ragout</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/02/retrieved-from-the-memory-hole/comment-page-1/#comment-220186</link>
		<dc:creator>Ragout</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 14:02:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/02/retrieved-from-the-memory-hole/#comment-220186</guid>
		<description>Well I read the London Times article that Quiggin links to, and all I found was a British officer putting the best face on a bad situation, and a UN official criticizing that statement.

We now know that in the post-war looting, 100s of thousands of tons of munitions went missing, and Iraq&#039;s storage facility for yellowcake uranium was ransacked.  Was this also a US/UK plot, or just the result of too few resources, too little planning, and general incompetence?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well I read the London Times article that Quiggin links to, and all I found was a British officer putting the best face on a bad situation, and a UN official criticizing that statement.</p>

	<p>We now know that in the post-war looting, 100s of thousands of tons of munitions went missing, and Iraq&#8217;s storage facility for yellowcake uranium was ransacked.  Was this also a US/UK plot, or just the result of too few resources, too little planning, and general incompetence?</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/02/retrieved-from-the-memory-hole/comment-page-1/#comment-220178</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 11:45:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/02/retrieved-from-the-memory-hole/#comment-220178</guid>
		<description>clb, have you read the report linked in the post? It doesn&#039;t leave any room for doubt, at least as regards UK policy, and Australia gets a brief but sufficiently damning mention.

I certainly recall reading eyewitness reports of US troops standing aside to let looting proceed, and plausible claims that looters were encouraged, if not directed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>clb, have you read the report linked in the post? It doesn&#8217;t leave any room for doubt, at least as regards UK policy, and Australia gets a brief but sufficiently damning mention.</p>

	<p>I certainly recall reading eyewitness reports of US troops standing aside to let looting proceed, and plausible claims that looters were encouraged, if not directed.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/02/retrieved-from-the-memory-hole/comment-page-1/#comment-220177</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 11:05:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/02/retrieved-from-the-memory-hole/#comment-220177</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;But to describe the looting as the intended results of US or coalition policy would be to falsify the record.&lt;/i&gt;

According to Naomi Klein (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.harpers.org/archive/2004/09/0080197&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Baghdad year zero: Pillaging Iraq in pursuit of a neocon utopia&lt;/a&gt;) it was indeed a part of the plan. In a &lt;i&gt;Le monde va changer de base&lt;/i&gt; sort of way.

&lt;blockquote&gt;
From the start, the neocons running Iraq had shown nothing but disdain for Iraq&#039;s state-owned companies. In keeping with their Year Zero‒apocalyptic glee, when looters descended on the factories during the war, U.S. forces did nothing. Sabah Asaad, managing director of a refrigerator factory outside Baghdad, told me that while the looting was going on, he went to a nearby U.S. Army base and begged for help. “I asked one of the officers to send two soldiers and a vehicle to help me kick out the looters. I was crying. The officer said, ‘Sorry, we can&#039;t do anything, we need an order from President Bush.’” Back in Washington, Donald Rumsfeld shrugged. “Free people are free to make mistakes and commit crimes and do bad things.” 
&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>But to describe the looting as the intended results of US or coalition policy would be to falsify the record.</i></p>

	<p>According to Naomi Klein (<a href="http://www.harpers.org/archive/2004/09/0080197" rel="nofollow">Baghdad year zero: Pillaging Iraq in pursuit of a neocon utopia</a>) it was indeed a part of the plan. In a <i>Le monde va changer de base</i> sort of way.</p>

	<p><blockquote><br />
From the start, the neocons running Iraq had shown nothing but disdain for Iraq&#8217;s state-owned companies. In keeping with their Year Zero‒apocalyptic glee, when looters descended on the factories during the war, U.S. forces did nothing. Sabah Asaad, managing director of a refrigerator factory outside Baghdad, told me that while the looting was going on, he went to a nearby U.S. Army base and begged for help. &#8220;I asked one of the officers to send two soldiers and a vehicle to help me kick out the looters. I was crying. The officer said, &#8216;Sorry, we can&#8217;t do anything, we need an order from President Bush.&#8217;&#8221; Back in Washington, Donald Rumsfeld shrugged. &#8220;Free people are free to make mistakes and commit crimes and do bad things.&#8221;<br />
</blockquote></p>
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		<title>By: c.l. ball</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/02/retrieved-from-the-memory-hole/comment-page-1/#comment-220149</link>
		<dc:creator>c.l. ball</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 05:12:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/02/retrieved-from-the-memory-hole/#comment-220149</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;the looting that started the downward spiral was a matter of deliberate Coalition policy&lt;/i&gt;

If, by &quot;deliberate&quot;, you mean that the US-UK-Aus failed to plan adequately and ignored warnings that looting would be a problem given the low troop levels, ok. 

But if you mean the US-UK-Aus. expected and hoped for looting, and therefore were not short-handed but willingly stood aside, then you drank some Kool-Aid.

Tim Judah and Mark Danner -- no war-mongers -- reported in 2003 from Baghdad that the coalition was taken off-guard by the looting due to &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nybooks.com/articles/article-preview?article_id=16283&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;insufficient forces&lt;/a&gt; and that some of the looting was likely part of &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.markdanner.com/articles/show/delusions_in_baghdad&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;insurgency planning&lt;/a&gt;, respectively.

The &quot;senior&quot; officer cited in the post was putting positive spin onto a miserable situation. 

None of this takes the US off the hook for the looting. If it had more forces, as many said it should have had, it would have been able to stop more of the looting. But to describe the looting as the intended results of US or coalition policy would be to falsify the record.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>the looting that started the downward spiral was a matter of deliberate Coalition policy</i></p>

	<p>If, by &#8220;deliberate&#8221;, you mean that the US-UK-Aus failed to plan adequately and ignored warnings that looting would be a problem given the low troop levels, ok.</p>

	<p>But if you mean the US-UK-Aus. expected and hoped for looting, and therefore were not short-handed but willingly stood aside, then you drank some Kool-Aid.</p>

	<p>Tim Judah and Mark Danner&#8212;no war-mongers&#8212;reported in 2003 from Baghdad that the coalition was taken off-guard by the looting due to <a href="http://www.nybooks.com/articles/article-preview?article_id=16283" rel="nofollow">insufficient forces</a> and that some of the looting was likely part of <a href="http://www.markdanner.com/articles/show/delusions_in_baghdad" rel="nofollow">insurgency planning</a>, respectively.</p>

	<p>The &#8220;senior&#8221; officer cited in the post was putting positive spin onto a miserable situation.</p>

	<p>None of this takes the US off the hook for the looting. If it had more forces, as many said it should have had, it would have been able to stop more of the looting. But to describe the looting as the intended results of US or coalition policy would be to falsify the record.</p>
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		<title>By: vivian</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/02/retrieved-from-the-memory-hole/comment-page-1/#comment-220137</link>
		<dc:creator>vivian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 01:22:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/02/retrieved-from-the-memory-hole/#comment-220137</guid>
		<description>7: Do you suppose anyone in the Times can count higher than 10 without taking of their shoes and socks? (Krugman and perhaps the folks in sales excepted, of course.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>7: Do you suppose anyone in the Times can count higher than 10 without taking of their shoes and socks? (Krugman and perhaps the folks in sales excepted, of course.)</p>
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		<title>By: The Next to Last Pope</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/02/retrieved-from-the-memory-hole/comment-page-1/#comment-220088</link>
		<dc:creator>The Next to Last Pope</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Dec 2007 19:42:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/02/retrieved-from-the-memory-hole/#comment-220088</guid>
		<description>Do you suppose the Times counts the doings of Blackwater in determining the level of corruption in Iraq? Or do its activities count in determining how corrupt this US administration is?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Do you suppose the Times counts the doings of Blackwater in determining the level of corruption in Iraq? Or do its activities count in determining how corrupt this US administration is?</p>
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		<title>By: Donald Johnson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/02/retrieved-from-the-memory-hole/comment-page-1/#comment-220068</link>
		<dc:creator>Donald Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Dec 2007 18:09:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/02/retrieved-from-the-memory-hole/#comment-220068</guid>
		<description>The Americanneocon is probably representative of how many Americans think (including many on the left)--what matters is the headline of the moment, not anything that requires a historical perspective stretchingfurther back than last Tuesday. 

Taking the lowest casualty estimate available and putting the best possible face on motivation, the US invaded Iraq with no workable plan about what to do next and as a result, close to 100,000 civilians die.   (In reality, probably many more than that, even if you don&#039;t believe the Lancet II or latest ORB poll).  But  hey, violence levels are back to late 2005 levels.

USA, USA, USA....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The Americanneocon is probably representative of how many Americans think (including many on the left)&#8212;what matters is the headline of the moment, not anything that requires a historical perspective stretchingfurther back than last Tuesday.</p>

	<p>Taking the lowest casualty estimate available and putting the best possible face on motivation, the US invaded Iraq with no workable plan about what to do next and as a result, close to 100,000 civilians die.   (In reality, probably many more than that, even if you don&#8217;t believe the Lancet II or latest <span class="caps">ORB</span> poll).  But  hey, violence levels are back to late 2005 levels.</p>

	<p><span class="caps">USA</span>, USA, <span class="caps">USA</span>&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: P O'Neill</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/02/retrieved-from-the-memory-hole/comment-page-1/#comment-220060</link>
		<dc:creator>P O'Neill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Dec 2007 17:40:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/02/retrieved-from-the-memory-hole/#comment-220060</guid>
		<description>Since we&#039;re mentioning Hitch&#039;s defences of Chalabi, I think the classic is his claim that the reason Chalabi happened to have Iranian codes in his possession is because, being a mathematical genius, he had &lt;a href=&quot;http://kris.typepad.com/blog/2005/11/chalabi_in_dc.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;cracked the codes&lt;/a&gt; himself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Since we&#8217;re mentioning Hitch&#8217;s defences of Chalabi, I think the classic is his claim that the reason Chalabi happened to have Iranian codes in his possession is because, being a mathematical genius, he had <a href="http://kris.typepad.com/blog/2005/11/chalabi_in_dc.html" rel="nofollow">cracked the codes</a> himself.</p>
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		<title>By: roger</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/02/retrieved-from-the-memory-hole/comment-page-1/#comment-220056</link>
		<dc:creator>roger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Dec 2007 17:08:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/02/retrieved-from-the-memory-hole/#comment-220056</guid>
		<description>I second the Nir Rosen nomination for da man status - he&#039;s done the best reporting on Iraq of any reporter I&#039;ve read, but has gotten an astonishing low level of recognition - I&#039;m not quite sure why everyone knows Tom Ricks and nobody knows Nir Rosen. 

It was one of the jokes of 2003 that the &quot;decent Left&quot; seemed so smitten with Ahmad Chalabi as the new Garibaldi/De Gaulle. I remember a hilarious screed by Hitchens in Slate where he solemnly intoned that nobody knows whether or not Chalabi was guilty of fraud in Jordan, which scrupulously avoided the fact that one could find out quite easily that Chalabi was guilty of fraud in Jordan, just as one could find out that his company had also been found guilty of fraud in Switzerland - and that &quot;one&quot;, here, included the vast majority of Iraqis, who just happen to live in a country that is next to Jordan. The crusade for democracy, led by a figure out of the Godfather - who could fail to laugh? Especially as the crusaders tended to call each other comrade. 

Given the recent shenanigans in the U.S.&#039;s own economy, however - for instance, the Federal Home Loan Bank&#039;s loaning 163 billion dollars to three seedy mortgage companies, Countrywide, Washington Mutual, and Hudson City Bancorp - I&#039;d still pit our good old American corruption against Iraqi corruption anytime. We are the champions, my friends! to quote Freddie Mercury.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I second the Nir Rosen nomination for da man status &#8211; he&#8217;s done the best reporting on Iraq of any reporter I&#8217;ve read, but has gotten an astonishing low level of recognition &#8211; I&#8217;m not quite sure why everyone knows Tom Ricks and nobody knows Nir Rosen.</p>

	<p>It was one of the jokes of 2003 that the &#8220;decent Left&#8221; seemed so smitten with Ahmad Chalabi as the new Garibaldi/De Gaulle. I remember a hilarious screed by Hitchens in Slate where he solemnly intoned that nobody knows whether or not Chalabi was guilty of fraud in Jordan, which scrupulously avoided the fact that one could find out quite easily that Chalabi was guilty of fraud in Jordan, just as one could find out that his company had also been found guilty of fraud in Switzerland &#8211; and that &#8220;one&#8221;, here, included the vast majority of Iraqis, who just happen to live in a country that is next to Jordan. The crusade for democracy, led by a figure out of the Godfather &#8211; who could fail to laugh? Especially as the crusaders tended to call each other comrade.</p>

	<p>Given the recent shenanigans in the U.S.&#8217;s own economy, however &#8211; for instance, the Federal Home Loan Bank&#8217;s loaning 163 billion dollars to three seedy mortgage companies, Countrywide, Washington Mutual, and Hudson City Bancorp &#8211; I&#8217;d still pit our good old American corruption against Iraqi corruption anytime. We are the champions, my friends! to quote Freddie Mercury.</p>
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		<title>By: P O'Neill</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/02/retrieved-from-the-memory-hole/comment-page-1/#comment-220046</link>
		<dc:creator>P O'Neill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Dec 2007 15:55:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/02/retrieved-from-the-memory-hole/#comment-220046</guid>
		<description>I think Cheney had decided even going in that they could live with Iraq as another Nigeria.  Sounds like the dream is on target.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think Cheney had decided even going in that they could live with Iraq as another Nigeria.  Sounds like the dream is on target.</p>
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		<title>By: Americaneocon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/02/retrieved-from-the-memory-hole/comment-page-1/#comment-220037</link>
		<dc:creator>Americaneocon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Dec 2007 14:58:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/02/retrieved-from-the-memory-hole/#comment-220037</guid>
		<description>Hey, if the paper&#039;s losing the editorial battle against the surge, why not shift to corruption? Maybe they can keep their antiwar campaign alive. 

Even public opinion&#039;s picking back up on Iraq:

http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=373</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Hey, if the paper&#8217;s losing the editorial battle against the surge, why not shift to corruption? Maybe they can keep their antiwar campaign alive.</p>

	<p>Even public opinion&#8217;s picking back up on Iraq:</p>

	<p><a href="http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=373" rel="nofollow">http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=373</a></p>
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