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	<title>Comments on: Australia ratifies Kyoto</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/03/australia-ratifies-kyoto/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/03/australia-ratifies-kyoto/comment-page-1/#comment-220432</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 07:29:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/03/australia-ratifies-kyoto/#comment-220432</guid>
		<description>Slocum, you&#039;re completely wrong about targets, and  your remarks on emissions trading suggest that you know almost nothing about climate change in general. Since you appear to have made your comments about Australian climate policy on the basis of a single article in a foreign paper, this is scarcely surprising. If you like I could point you to some of my journal and newspaper articles on the topic.

Shelby, Garrett has had some problems adapting to party politics (off-the-cuff policy announcements and jocular remarks to rightwing journalists) and the response has been to confine him to domestic environmental issues. Government is different from Opposition and he may do better there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Slocum, you&#8217;re completely wrong about targets, and  your remarks on emissions trading suggest that you know almost nothing about climate change in general. Since you appear to have made your comments about Australian climate policy on the basis of a single article in a foreign paper, this is scarcely surprising. If you like I could point you to some of my journal and newspaper articles on the topic.</p>

	<p>Shelby, Garrett has had some problems adapting to party politics (off-the-cuff policy announcements and jocular remarks to rightwing journalists) and the response has been to confine him to domestic environmental issues. Government is different from Opposition and he may do better there.</p>
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		<title>By: Shelby</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/03/australia-ratifies-kyoto/comment-page-1/#comment-220427</link>
		<dc:creator>Shelby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 05:02:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/03/australia-ratifies-kyoto/#comment-220427</guid>
		<description>John,

Any thoughts on Peter Garrett&#039;s being gagged on climate-change matters?  And what was the point of making him Environment Minister, then?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>John,</p>

	<p>Any thoughts on Peter Garrett&#8217;s being gagged on climate-change matters?  And what was the point of making him Environment Minister, then?</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Slocum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/03/australia-ratifies-kyoto/comment-page-1/#comment-220401</link>
		<dc:creator>Slocum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:01:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/03/australia-ratifies-kyoto/#comment-220401</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Slocum, this is way off the mark, as the rest of the article you quoted suggests.&lt;/i&gt;

How, exactly, does it suggest that?

&lt;i&gt;Labor will introduce emissions trading and both short-term and long-term binding targets. &lt;/i&gt;

Short term binding targets during the Kyoto time frame that achieve minimal reductions below existing levels is kind of a yawner.  Yes Rudd will introduce emissions trading whereas Howard did not.  And the difference this will make in actual emissions will be negligible.

And long term this remains the fundamental issue:

&quot;Rudd has stuck to the insistence of former Prime Minister John Howard that Australia will not sign on to the post-2012 continuation of the agreement if the emerging global powers, and global-sized emitters, China and India, are not party to it.&quot;

That is the critical sense in which Rudd&#039;s position matches both Bush&#039;s and -- wait and see -- that of an incoming U.S. Democratic president.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Slocum, this is way off the mark, as the rest of the article you quoted suggests.</i></p>

	<p>How, exactly, does it suggest that?</p>

	<p><i>Labor will introduce emissions trading and both short-term and long-term binding targets. </i></p>

	<p>Short term binding targets during the Kyoto time frame that achieve minimal reductions below existing levels is kind of a yawner.  Yes Rudd will introduce emissions trading whereas Howard did not.  And the difference this will make in actual emissions will be negligible.</p>

	<p>And long term this remains the fundamental issue:</p>

	<p>&#8220;Rudd has stuck to the insistence of former Prime Minister John Howard that Australia will not sign on to the post-2012 continuation of the agreement if the emerging global powers, and global-sized emitters, China and India, are not party to it.&#8221;</p>

	<p>That is the critical sense in which Rudd&#8217;s position matches both Bush&#8217;s and&#8212;wait and see&#8212;that of an incoming U.S. Democratic president.</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/03/australia-ratifies-kyoto/comment-page-1/#comment-220384</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Dec 2007 20:11:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/03/australia-ratifies-kyoto/#comment-220384</guid>
		<description>Slocum, this is way off the mark, as the rest of the article you quoted suggests. 

 Labor will introduce emissions trading and both short-term and long-term binding targets. Until a year or two ago, Howard rejected all these things. Bush still does. Admittedly, Howard&#039;s backdown in the last couple of years moved him much closer to the Labor position, and further away from Bush, but this would surely not have survived an against-the-odds election win.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Slocum, this is way off the mark, as the rest of the article you quoted suggests.</p>

	<p>Labor will introduce emissions trading and both short-term and long-term binding targets. Until a year or two ago, Howard rejected all these things. Bush still does. Admittedly, Howard&#8217;s backdown in the last couple of years moved him much closer to the Labor position, and further away from Bush, but this would surely not have survived an against-the-odds election win.</p>
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		<title>By: Slocum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/03/australia-ratifies-kyoto/comment-page-1/#comment-220382</link>
		<dc:creator>Slocum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Dec 2007 20:03:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/03/australia-ratifies-kyoto/#comment-220382</guid>
		<description>However...

&quot;...Rudd has stuck to the insistence of former Prime Minister John Howard that Australia will not sign on to the post-2012 continuation of the agreement if the emerging global powers, and global-sized emitters, China and India, are not party to it.&quot;

And 

&quot;But for all Howard&#039;s bluster, and despite Rudd&#039;s decision to sign up to Kyoto just a month before its first five-year term ends, Australia is almost on target to meet Kyoto emission standards anyway.&quot;

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/12/04/asia/australia.php

In other words, signing up for Kyoto is going to cost Australia little or nothing in the short term, and in the long term, Rudd&#039;s post-Kyoto position seems little different than Howard&#039;s (or Bush&#039;s for that matter).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>However&#8230;</p>

	<p>&#8220;&#8230;Rudd has stuck to the insistence of former Prime Minister John Howard that Australia will not sign on to the post-2012 continuation of the agreement if the emerging global powers, and global-sized emitters, China and India, are not party to it.&#8221;</p>

	<p>And</p>

	<p>&#8220;But for all Howard&#8217;s bluster, and despite Rudd&#8217;s decision to sign up to Kyoto just a month before its first five-year term ends, Australia is almost on target to meet Kyoto emission standards anyway.&#8221;</p>

	<p><a href="http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/12/04/asia/australia.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/12/04/asia/australia.php</a></p>

	<p>In other words, signing up for Kyoto is going to cost Australia little or nothing in the short term, and in the long term, Rudd&#8217;s post-Kyoto position seems little different than Howard&#8217;s (or Bush&#8217;s for that matter).</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Worstall</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/03/australia-ratifies-kyoto/comment-page-1/#comment-220344</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Worstall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Dec 2007 14:31:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/03/australia-ratifies-kyoto/#comment-220344</guid>
		<description>Just for fun (no, this isn&#039;t a serious argument*), didn&#039;t I see recently that US emissions dropped in the last measured year? Meaning that the only people not to have signed Kyoto are the only people who did cut emissions in that year? 

* Because one year doesn&#039;t matter very much, that&#039;s why it&#039;s not a serious argumnt.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Just for fun (no, this isn&#8217;t a serious argument*), didn&#8217;t I see recently that US emissions dropped in the last measured year? Meaning that the only people not to have signed Kyoto are the only people who did cut emissions in that year?</p>

	<ul>
		<li>Because one year doesn&#8217;t matter very much, that&#8217;s why it&#8217;s not a serious argumnt.</li>
	</ul>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/03/australia-ratifies-kyoto/comment-page-1/#comment-220304</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Dec 2007 07:15:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/03/australia-ratifies-kyoto/#comment-220304</guid>
		<description>Among the routine anti-Kyoto talking points, reference to the 1997 vote has to be just about the silliest. This non-binding vote was taken over a decade ago, before Kyoto was even signed.

The Climate Stewardship Act got 43 votes much more recently against the strong opposition of the Administration. If Bush had wanted Kyoto ratification, he could have had it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Among the routine anti-Kyoto talking points, reference to the 1997 vote has to be just about the silliest. This non-binding vote was taken over a decade ago, before Kyoto was even signed.</p>

	<p>The Climate Stewardship Act got 43 votes much more recently against the strong opposition of the Administration. If Bush had wanted Kyoto ratification, he could have had it.</p>
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		<title>By: goatchowder</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/03/australia-ratifies-kyoto/comment-page-1/#comment-220300</link>
		<dc:creator>goatchowder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Dec 2007 06:15:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/03/australia-ratifies-kyoto/#comment-220300</guid>
		<description>One of the things I envy about the Australian Parliamentary system is how quickly after an election the new government takes office and starts doing stuff.

Whereas, we have to wait from the election on November 4th until the end of January until finally being rid of Bush/Cheney and their cronies in the Senate and House.

I&#039;d love to add the abandonment of this idiotic 18th-century anachronism to the list of minor tweaks that a second Constitutional Convention might make. 

And yes, I think we&#039;ll be close to a 2/3rds Senate majority in 2009 that&#039;d feel enough pressure to ratify Kyoto.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>One of the things I envy about the Australian Parliamentary system is how quickly after an election the new government takes office and starts doing stuff.</p>

	<p>Whereas, we have to wait from the election on November 4th until the end of January until finally being rid of Bush/Cheney and their cronies in the Senate and House.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;d love to add the abandonment of this idiotic 18th-century anachronism to the list of minor tweaks that a second Constitutional Convention might make.</p>

	<p>And yes, I think we&#8217;ll be close to a 2/3rds Senate majority in 2009 that&#8217;d feel enough pressure to ratify Kyoto.</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua Holmes</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/03/australia-ratifies-kyoto/comment-page-1/#comment-220268</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua Holmes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Dec 2007 02:16:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/03/australia-ratifies-kyoto/#comment-220268</guid>
		<description>Under the US Constitution, a treaty is not law unless it is signed by the President and confirmed by two-thirds of the Senate.  U.S. Const. Art. II, Sec. 2.  Before President Clinton signed the Kyoto Treaty, the Senate passed a resolution refusing to endorse Kyoto.  The vote was 95-0, 4 Democrats and 1 Republican abstained.  Knowing it would be essentially meaningless, Clinton signed Kyoto anyway.  Clinton didn&#039;t even bother to submit it to the Senate for approval.

Kyoto is not American law, and therefore the President has no authority to act on it, either Clinton, Bush, or whoever comes along in 2008.  Until the 2/3rds of the Senate ratifies Kyoto, the President has no power.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Under the <span class="caps">US </span>Constitution, a treaty is not law unless it is signed by the President and confirmed by two-thirds of the Senate.  U.S. Const. Art. II, Sec. 2.  Before President Clinton signed the Kyoto Treaty, the Senate passed a resolution refusing to endorse Kyoto.  The vote was 95-0, 4 Democrats and 1 Republican abstained.  Knowing it would be essentially meaningless, Clinton signed Kyoto anyway.  Clinton didn&#8217;t even bother to submit it to the Senate for approval.</p>

	<p>Kyoto is not American law, and therefore the President has no authority to act on it, either Clinton, Bush, or whoever comes along in 2008.  Until the 2/3rds of the Senate ratifies Kyoto, the President has no power.</p>
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