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	<title>Comments on: Another philosopher</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/14/another-philosopher/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: novakant</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/14/another-philosopher/comment-page-2/#comment-222013</link>
		<dc:creator>novakant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 19:43:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/14/another-philosopher/#comment-222013</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s about funding, not fees.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It&#8217;s about funding, not fees.</p>
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		<title>By: leederick</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/14/another-philosopher/comment-page-1/#comment-222006</link>
		<dc:creator>leederick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 18:33:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/14/another-philosopher/#comment-222006</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;This is only true if the EU student had been already resident in the UK for 3 years before starting the course AND such residence was not for the purposes of education.&lt;/i&gt;

Can I ask what make you say this? My information is that:

&lt;i&gt;UK fees apply if:&lt;/i&gt;

&lt;i&gt;you are resident within the UK prior to the start date of your course and will remain in the UK for the duration of the course, or you have a BFPO address;&lt;/i&gt; 

&lt;i&gt;and&lt;/i&gt;

&lt;i&gt;* either you&#039;ve been living in the UK, the European Economic Area (EEA) or Switzerland, or an Overseas Agreed Territory for at least three years before starting your course&lt;/i&gt; 

&lt;i&gt;* or you are not from the areas above but have &quot;permanent&quot; or &quot;indefinite&quot; leave to remain in the UK and been resident in the UK for at least three years and will remain resident in the UK for the length of your course (i.e. not on a temporary or renewable visa);&lt;/i&gt;

&lt;i&gt;* or you are a UK income tax payer who is temporarily and unavoidably outside the UK (for no more than three years) and you remain liable for UK income tax whilst resident outside the UK; or you are a dependant of such a person.&lt;/i&gt;

http://www3.open.ac.uk/contact/faq.aspx?t=S&amp;cat=1-1GSR1Z

By my reading a Polish plumber who emigrated to the UK and 2 years later applied to enrol in a UK university or higher-education course would be resident within the UK prior to the start date of the course and have been living in the European Economic Area (EEA) for at least three years before starting the course, so would pay UK fees.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>This is only true if the EU student had been already resident in the UK for 3 years before starting the course <span class="caps">AND</span> such residence was not for the purposes of education.</i></p>

	<p>Can I ask what make you say this? My information is that:</p>

	<p><i>UK fees apply if:</i></p>

	<p><i>you are resident within the UK prior to the start date of your course and will remain in the UK for the duration of the course, or you have a <span class="caps">BFPO</span> address;</i></p>

	<p><i>and</i></p>

	<p><i>* either you&#8217;ve been living in the UK, the European Economic Area (EEA) or Switzerland, or an Overseas Agreed Territory for at least three years before starting your course</i></p>

	<p><i>* or you are not from the areas above but have &#8220;permanent&#8221; or &#8220;indefinite&#8221; leave to remain in the UK and been resident in the UK for at least three years and will remain resident in the UK for the length of your course (i.e. not on a temporary or renewable visa);</i></p>

	<p><i>* or you are a UK income tax payer who is temporarily and unavoidably outside the <span class="caps">UK </span>(for no more than three years) and you remain liable for UK income tax whilst resident outside the UK; or you are a dependant of such a person.</i></p>

	<p><a href="http://www3.open.ac.uk/contact/faq.aspx?t=S&#038;cat=1-1GSR1Z" rel="nofollow">http://www3.open.ac.uk/contact/faq.aspx?t=S&#038;cat=1-1GSR1Z</a></p>

	<p>By my reading a Polish plumber who emigrated to the UK and 2 years later applied to enrol in a UK university or higher-education course would be resident within the UK prior to the start date of the course and have been living in the European Economic Area (EEA) for at least three years before starting the course, so would pay UK fees.</p>
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		<title>By: Magnus Ramage</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/14/another-philosopher/comment-page-1/#comment-221998</link>
		<dc:creator>Magnus Ramage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 17:07:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/14/another-philosopher/#comment-221998</guid>
		<description>Regarding leederrick&#039;s comment (#35):

&lt;i&gt;&quot;The OU is subsidised per se, so all EU students are subsidised. However, one component of HE funding attachs specifically to students and only goes to those resident in the UK.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Unfortunately the OU&#039;s subsidy is under threat. Under current government proposals, those students who already have a qualification at the same or lower level to one they already hold, won&#039;t be subsidised by the UK government. So someone (a UK resident) in Ingrid&#039;s position of having a PhD and then doing an MA have to pay the unsubsidised fee. If the policy goes through unchanged - there is still scope for modification - this will hit the OU very hard. 

The OU (along with other affected institutions) has started a campaign against this policy. Details at &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.backtheou.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;www.backtheou.com&lt;/a&gt;. (I work at the OU so I&#039;m not entirely disinterested in this matter!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Regarding leederrick&#8217;s comment (#35):</p>

	<p><i>&#8220;The OU is subsidised per se, so all EU students are subsidised. However, one component of HE funding attachs specifically to students and only goes to those resident in the UK.&#8221;</i></p>

	<p>Unfortunately the OU&#8217;s subsidy is under threat. Under current government proposals, those students who already have a qualification at the same or lower level to one they already hold, won&#8217;t be subsidised by the UK government. So someone (a UK resident) in Ingrid&#8217;s position of having a PhD and then doing an MA have to pay the unsubsidised fee. If the policy goes through unchanged &#8211; there is still scope for modification &#8211; this will hit the OU very hard.</p>

	<p>The <span class="caps">OU </span>(along with other affected institutions) has started a campaign against this policy. Details at <a href="http://www.backtheou.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.backtheou.com</a>. (I work at the OU so I&#8217;m not entirely disinterested in this matter!)</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/14/another-philosopher/comment-page-1/#comment-221960</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 11:20:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/14/another-philosopher/#comment-221960</guid>
		<description>To clarify Phil&#039;s comment (#45): 

&lt;i&gt;&quot;So a student from another EU country resident in the UK would pay the same fees as a UK student.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

This is only true if the EU student had been already resident in the UK for 3 years before starting the course AND such residence was not for the purposes of education. 

In other words, a Polish plumber who emigrated to the UK and 2 years later applied to enrol in a UK university or higher-education course would pay the (much-higher) foreign fee, not the (lower) UK fee.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>To clarify Phil&#8217;s comment (#45):</p>

	<p><i>&#8220;So a student from another EU country resident in the UK would pay the same fees as a UK student.&#8221;</i></p>

	<p>This is only true if the EU student had been already resident in the UK for 3 years before starting the course <span class="caps">AND</span> such residence was not for the purposes of education.</p>

	<p>In other words, a Polish plumber who emigrated to the UK and 2 years later applied to enrol in a UK university or higher-education course would pay the (much-higher) foreign fee, not the (lower) UK fee.</p>
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		<title>By: Tracy W</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/14/another-philosopher/comment-page-1/#comment-221949</link>
		<dc:creator>Tracy W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 09:18:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/14/another-philosopher/#comment-221949</guid>
		<description>Greg - &lt;i&gt;As admirable as it is for working academics to wish to expand the breadth of their studies, isn’t it at least a little troubling that such people are taking the places which would have gone to students?&lt;/i&gt;

On the other hand, a working academic may well add far more in terms of skills to their fellow students&#039; experience of the course. 

When I did my engineering degree there were several people there who had done their New Zealand Certificate in Engineering (the technicians&#039; course) and we learnt to grab them for labs and study groups due to their practical knowledge.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Greg &#8211; <i>As admirable as it is for working academics to wish to expand the breadth of their studies, isn&#8217;t it at least a little troubling that such people are taking the places which would have gone to students?</i></p>

	<p>On the other hand, a working academic may well add far more in terms of skills to their fellow students&#8217; experience of the course.</p>

	<p>When I did my engineering degree there were several people there who had done their New Zealand Certificate in Engineering (the technicians&#8217; course) and we learnt to grab them for labs and study groups due to their practical knowledge.</p>
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		<title>By: harry b</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/14/another-philosopher/comment-page-1/#comment-221878</link>
		<dc:creator>harry b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2007 20:12:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/14/another-philosopher/#comment-221878</guid>
		<description>engels and a -- I want to defend ingrid on this point (in case you are annoyed by what she said). I have thought of Ingrid as a philosopher since I&#039;ve known  her, precisely because she thinks about philosophical issues, and does so in a way that is sensitive to the interesting issues in the conceptual space. Engels (whatever your degree, assuming you have one) displays the same traits in these threads so I think the same thing of him. But ingrid is responding to two phenomena. One is the very strong norm within philosophy of regarding people without formal philosophical training as not true philosophers. This norm might serve some valuable purposes (I can&#039;t think of any, but it might), but is mainly arrogance and narrowness. Second, while Economics and Philosophy share many intellectual ticks, philosophers are especially suspicious of trained economists, who frequently express interest in philosophical questions, are often very smart, and often miss lots of the interesting issues, but are unaware of why they are doing so because they are so confident in their own approach. (The humility which led ingrid to do the MA and pursue something outside her comfort zone is precisely the trait which protects her from this tendency btw). So, I&#039;ve managed in this para to say something nice about both Ingrid and engels, but something rude about most philosophers and most economists. Success!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>engels and a&#8212;I want to defend ingrid on this point (in case you are annoyed by what she said). I have thought of Ingrid as a philosopher since I&#8217;ve known  her, precisely because she thinks about philosophical issues, and does so in a way that is sensitive to the interesting issues in the conceptual space. Engels (whatever your degree, assuming you have one) displays the same traits in these threads so I think the same thing of him. But ingrid is responding to two phenomena. One is the very strong norm within philosophy of regarding people without formal philosophical training as not true philosophers. This norm might serve some valuable purposes (I can&#8217;t think of any, but it might), but is mainly arrogance and narrowness. Second, while Economics and Philosophy share many intellectual ticks, philosophers are especially suspicious of trained economists, who frequently express interest in philosophical questions, are often very smart, and often miss lots of the interesting issues, but are unaware of why they are doing so because they are so confident in their own approach. (The humility which led ingrid to do the MA and pursue something outside her comfort zone is precisely the trait which protects her from this tendency btw). So, I&#8217;ve managed in this para to say something nice about both Ingrid and engels, but something rude about most philosophers and most economists. Success!</p>
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		<title>By: phil</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/14/another-philosopher/comment-page-1/#comment-221876</link>
		<dc:creator>phil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2007 20:01:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/14/another-philosopher/#comment-221876</guid>
		<description>As Leederick pointed out the difference in fees is based on where the student is resident not their nationality. So a student from another EU country resident in the UK would pay the same fees as a UK student. And it would seem that a UK student resident in another EU country would have to pay the extra costs also.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>As Leederick pointed out the difference in fees is based on where the student is resident not their nationality. So a student from another EU country resident in the UK would pay the same fees as a UK student. And it would seem that a UK student resident in another EU country would have to pay the extra costs also.</p>
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		<title>By: Ingrid Robeyns</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/14/another-philosopher/comment-page-1/#comment-221873</link>
		<dc:creator>Ingrid Robeyns</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2007 19:10:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/14/another-philosopher/#comment-221873</guid>
		<description>Blah (@40) - I don&#039;t know what you understand under &#039;normal university courses&#039; but in any case for the British Open University MA in philosophy courses this is definitely not true, as &quot;the information on their website&quot;:http://www3.open.ac.uk/courses/bin/p12.dll?C01uA857 can easily show (just click on residents in continental europe and you&#039;ll see the higher fee)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Blah (@40) &#8211; I don&#8217;t know what you understand under &#8216;normal university courses&#8217; but in any case for the British Open University MA in philosophy courses this is definitely not true, as <a href="<a" title="">the information on their website</a> href=&#8221;http://www3.open.ac.uk/courses/bin/p12.dll?C01uA857&#8221; rel=&#8221;nofollow&#8221;>http://www3.open.ac.uk/courses/bin/p12.dll?C01uA857 can easily show (just click on residents in continental europe and you&#8217;ll see the higher fee)</p>
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		<title>By: novakant</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/14/another-philosopher/comment-page-1/#comment-221864</link>
		<dc:creator>novakant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2007 17:50:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/14/another-philosopher/#comment-221864</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;So what?&lt;/i&gt;

Well, firstly you would have to provide us with some hard data on exactly how many foreign students never pay back their subsidies and what that amounts to financially. While I&#039;m sure that there are such cases I highly doubt that this is the norm and without such data your generalization amounts to a slur. 

Then some countries provide students who study abroad and couldn&#039;t otherwise afford it with financial assistance for both living expenses and tuition fees. Whether it&#039;s paid by the government or the parents this money that goes directly into the UK economy and via taxation the budget. Also a  lot of EU countries don&#039;t have such high tuition fees and for UK students can study, for instance, in Germany basically for free.

The UK not actually manufacturing and exporting all that much is highly dependent on the influx of foreign money and foreign students are just part of that equation, which highly benefits the UK. Many of those decide to stay, start or are employed by UK companies and thus further benefit the UK economy.

Finally, the common market is indeed designed to level the differences between the EU member states and to give every EU citizen a fair shot at succeeding. The rich countries have been subsidizing countries like Ireland or Spain for decades without a lot of complaining and these now have taken off economically. Taking the long view this was to the benefit of everybody involved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>So what?</i></p>

	<p>Well, firstly you would have to provide us with some hard data on exactly how many foreign students never pay back their subsidies and what that amounts to financially. While I&#8217;m sure that there are such cases I highly doubt that this is the norm and without such data your generalization amounts to a slur.</p>

	<p>Then some countries provide students who study abroad and couldn&#8217;t otherwise afford it with financial assistance for both living expenses and tuition fees. Whether it&#8217;s paid by the government or the parents this money that goes directly into the UK economy and via taxation the budget. Also a  lot of EU countries don&#8217;t have such high tuition fees and for UK students can study, for instance, in Germany basically for free.</p>

	<p>The UK not actually manufacturing and exporting all that much is highly dependent on the influx of foreign money and foreign students are just part of that equation, which highly benefits the UK. Many of those decide to stay, start or are employed by UK companies and thus further benefit the UK economy.</p>

	<p>Finally, the common market is indeed designed to level the differences between the EU member states and to give every EU citizen a fair shot at succeeding. The rich countries have been subsidizing countries like Ireland or Spain for decades without a lot of complaining and these now have taken off economically. Taking the long view this was to the benefit of everybody involved.</p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/14/another-philosopher/comment-page-1/#comment-221862</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2007 17:33:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/14/another-philosopher/#comment-221862</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think there is any law against calling yourself a philosopher if you don&#039;t have a degree in philosophy. (I&#039;m pretty sure there is no such law against calling yourself an economist either.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I don&#8217;t think there is any law against calling yourself a philosopher if you don&#8217;t have a degree in philosophy. (I&#8217;m pretty sure there is no such law against calling yourself an economist either.)</p>
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		<title>By: leederick</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/14/another-philosopher/comment-page-1/#comment-221852</link>
		<dc:creator>leederick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2007 14:02:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/14/another-philosopher/#comment-221852</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&#039;As for the course fees – non-UK European Students pay much more than UK students (the difference is something like 1200 vs 2000 UK Pounds), so I take it the non-UK European students are not subsidized.&#039;&lt;/i&gt;

This is the reason. I am right that thanks to the common market EU citizens are all treated the same. So why the difference in fees? The difference is based upon residence (which is a bit odd for a distance learning course). The OU is subsidised per se, so all EU students are subsidised. However, one component of HE funding attachs specifically to students and only goes to those resident in the UK. The difference in fees is to make up this difference, and also to pay for things like extra postage and administration costs. This is in distinction to extra-EU students who are run at a profit and used to subsidise those inside the EU.

&lt;i&gt;&#039;leederick, both EU and overseas students provide a substantial financial net benefit to the UK&#039;&lt;/i&gt;

So what? What&#039;s important is not whether they provide a financial net benefit, but whether a greater financial net benefit could provided by using the funding for other purposes (such as supporting students who are liable to pay their debts).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>&#8216;As for the course fees &#8211; non-UK European Students pay much more than UK students (the difference is something like 1200 vs 2000 <span class="caps">UK </span>Pounds), so I take it the non-UK European students are not subsidized.&#8217;</i></p>

	<p>This is the reason. I am right that thanks to the common market EU citizens are all treated the same. So why the difference in fees? The difference is based upon residence (which is a bit odd for a distance learning course). The OU is subsidised per se, so all EU students are subsidised. However, one component of HE funding attachs specifically to students and only goes to those resident in the UK. The difference in fees is to make up this difference, and also to pay for things like extra postage and administration costs. This is in distinction to extra-EU students who are run at a profit and used to subsidise those inside the EU.</p>

	<p><i>&#8216;leederick, both EU and overseas students provide a substantial financial net benefit to the UK&#8217;</i></p>

	<p>So what? What&#8217;s important is not whether they provide a financial net benefit, but whether a greater financial net benefit could provided by using the funding for other purposes (such as supporting students who are liable to pay their debts).</p>
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		<title>By: blah</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/14/another-philosopher/comment-page-1/#comment-221849</link>
		<dc:creator>blah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2007 13:17:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/14/another-philosopher/#comment-221849</guid>
		<description>well, actually the fees are now the same for EU and home students for normal university courses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>well, actually the fees are now the same for EU and home students for normal university courses.</p>
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		<title>By: novakant</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/14/another-philosopher/comment-page-1/#comment-221843</link>
		<dc:creator>novakant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2007 11:17:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/14/another-philosopher/#comment-221843</guid>
		<description>leederick, both EU and overseas students provide a substantial financial net benefit to the UK</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>leederick, both EU and overseas students provide a substantial financial net benefit to the UK</p>
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		<title>By: Ingrid Robeyns</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/14/another-philosopher/comment-page-1/#comment-221842</link>
		<dc:creator>Ingrid Robeyns</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2007 11:09:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/14/another-philosopher/#comment-221842</guid>
		<description>a (@34) - point taken. What about replacing &#039;legitimately&#039; with &#039;legally&#039; ? I can &#039;legally&#039; call myself an economist, but am often hesitant to do so since in most areas in economics I forgot what I learnt, and make no effort at all to keep up with the latest knowledge. I would be in favour of blowing up all disciplinary boundaries, and allowing people to describe themeselves based on what they are actually knowing and doing rather than the degrees they hold, but I fear that&#039;s very much utopian thinking...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>a (@34) &#8211; point taken. What about replacing &#8216;legitimately&#8217; with &#8216;legally&#8217; ? I can &#8216;legally&#8217; call myself an economist, but am often hesitant to do so since in most areas in economics I forgot what I learnt, and make no effort at all to keep up with the latest knowledge. I would be in favour of blowing up all disciplinary boundaries, and allowing people to describe themeselves based on what they are actually knowing and doing rather than the degrees they hold, but I fear that&#8217;s very much utopian thinking&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Ingrid Robeyns</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/14/another-philosopher/comment-page-1/#comment-221841</link>
		<dc:creator>Ingrid Robeyns</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2007 11:03:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/14/another-philosopher/#comment-221841</guid>
		<description>leederick, this was one of my worries that I had before enrolling (that I would be &#039;wasting my time&#039;) -- but apart from part of the course on social and political philosophy most other stuff was new to me, and some of it really challanging (the debate on folk psychology, for example). I think the only advantage I had over &#039;regular&#039; students was that I probably am able to process new material much quicker than those who are not professional academics, and that I knew that as long as I spent sufficient time on the material, I&#039;d be able to learn what I had to learn. 

As for the course fees - non-UK European Students pay much more than UK students (the difference is something like 1200 vs 2000 UK Pounds), so I take it the non-UK European students are not subsidized. But perhaps someone who is genuinly informed rather than just making guesses can illuminate us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>leederick, this was one of my worries that I had before enrolling (that I would be &#8216;wasting my time&#8217;)&#8212;but apart from part of the course on social and political philosophy most other stuff was new to me, and some of it really challanging (the debate on folk psychology, for example). I think the only advantage I had over &#8216;regular&#8217; students was that I probably am able to process new material much quicker than those who are not professional academics, and that I knew that as long as I spent sufficient time on the material, I&#8217;d be able to learn what I had to learn.</p>

	<p>As for the course fees &#8211; non-UK European Students pay much more than UK students (the difference is something like 1200 vs 2000 <span class="caps">UK </span>Pounds), so I take it the non-UK European students are not subsidized. But perhaps someone who is genuinly informed rather than just making guesses can illuminate us.</p>
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