Comments on: Can we stop with the pink and the bows already? http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/25/can-we-stop-with-the-pink-and-the-bows-already/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Mon, 13 Feb 2012 10:24:44 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Shaping Youth http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/25/can-we-stop-with-the-pink-and-the-bows-already/comment-page-1/#comment-223054 Shaping Youth Sun, 30 Dec 2007 19:11:26 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/25/can-we-stop-with-the-pink-and-the-bows-already/#comment-223054 Great media stereotype slams & worthy deconstruction here; I teach a session called 'Squashing Stereotypes in Media' and it's amazing what's continually perpetuated...we (Shaping Youth.org) focus on media/mktg's impact on kids, so you’ll find tons of articles along these lines about ‘packaging girlhood’ and dollar-driven ways this gets played out as marketers try to gender tag and mine for profitability. (see category/stereotypes) From Pink Dreams & Pink Fairytale Princess Flakes to the bigger picture of media messages being delivered through film and TV on role expectations. (amazing stats in the Annenberg gender equity study at DadsandDaughters’ org and their "See Jane" division) It clearly needs a look-see in a big way on the content front, far beyond glittery eyelashes and color palettes… Gender-tagging basketballs for WNBA represents yet another form of ‘other’ (and I tend to agree w/Katherine throughout this post; plus the differentiation of setting the boy bball as the ‘norm’ and the girls as the ‘other’ is what disturbs here)--- For parents and kids, the key is not to buy it, or buy into it, and it will ever so slowly grind to a halt, with people shrugging, 'huh? That's dumb, why would they do that?' as my daughter (a bball player) just did when I told her this story. Mind you, she also received a basketball-shaped clear lipgloss in her holiday stocking, unadorned, no bows no frills, which sent the message, "I can be an athlete and like lipgloss too" which captures her personality much more accurately than some contrived anthropomorphic fluff-n-stuff. Strongly feel media/mktg are defining kids before they can even define themselves...so parental economic backlash and a hearty slap on the wallet is the only change agent that moves as fast as a Rutgers bball game, as you can see by my post here on how to end racial stereotyping by ‘going for the gold’ in the ad arena: http://www.shapingyouth.org/blog/?p=385 Raising awareness through media literacy can BEGIN to 'counter-market' the blatant stereotyping that's impacting kids at a raw/profound level, (see APA early sexualization study and our Shaping Youth advisory board members at Packaging Girlhood.com who have tackled the 'pink think' machinations on the marketing front in a big way: http://www.shapingyouth.org/blog/?p=309) Sorry for the long blog-hog, but this hits a huge hot button for me, (esp. since our nonprofit, Shaping Youth, is partnered with GirlsAreChampions.org) ---I strongly believe persistence is key if parents/purveyors want to pushback on what's being served to us on a pink platter time and time again... After all, even Imus felt the sting even with his 'comeback' as advertisers are not eager to align w/'tainted products'...whether that product is people, or a bunch of bow bedecked bballs in the ‘on sale’ bin due to rejection… Economics via cultural mindshifts are what ultimately bury products and create change in the media maelstrom. Thanks for the great conversation, Katherine, Seth, et al...as THAT is what blogging is about! :-) Great media stereotype slams & worthy deconstruction here; I teach a session called ‘Squashing Stereotypes in Media’ and it’s amazing what’s continually perpetuated…we (Shaping Youth.org) focus on media/mktg’s impact on kids, so you’ll find tons of articles along these lines about ‘packaging girlhood’ and dollar-driven ways this gets played out as marketers try to gender tag and mine for profitability. (see category/stereotypes)

From Pink Dreams & Pink Fairytale Princess Flakes to the bigger picture of media messages being delivered through film and TV on role expectations. (amazing stats in the Annenberg gender equity study at DadsandDaughters’ org and their “See Jane” division) It clearly needs a look-see in a big way on the content front, far beyond glittery eyelashes and color palettes…

Gender-tagging basketballs for WNBA represents yet another form of ‘other’ (and I tend to agree w/Katherine throughout this post; plus the differentiation of setting the boy bball as the ‘norm’ and the girls as the ‘other’ is what disturbs here)—-

For parents and kids, the key is not to buy it, or buy into it, and it will ever so slowly grind to a halt, with people shrugging, ‘huh? That’s dumb, why would they do that?’ as my daughter (a bball player) just did when I told her this story.

Mind you, she also received a basketball-shaped clear lipgloss in her holiday stocking, unadorned, no bows no frills, which sent the message, “I can be an athlete and like lipgloss too” which captures her personality much more accurately than some contrived anthropomorphic fluff-n-stuff.

Strongly feel media/mktg are defining kids before they can even define themselves…so parental economic backlash and a hearty slap on the wallet is the only change agent that moves as fast as a Rutgers bball game, as you can see by my post here on how to end racial stereotyping by ‘going for the gold’ in the ad arena: http://www.shapingyouth.org/blog/?p=385

Raising awareness through media literacy can BEGIN to ‘counter-market’ the blatant stereotyping that’s impacting kids at a raw/profound level, (see APA early sexualization study and our Shaping Youth advisory board members at Packaging Girlhood.com who have tackled the ‘pink think’ machinations on the marketing front in a big way: http://www.shapingyouth.org/blog/?p=309)

Sorry for the long blog-hog, but this hits a huge hot button for me, (esp. since our nonprofit, Shaping Youth, is partnered with GirlsAreChampions.org)—-I strongly believe persistence is key if parents/purveyors want to pushback on what’s being served to us on a pink platter time and time again…

After all, even Imus felt the sting even with his ‘comeback’ as advertisers are not eager to align w/’tainted products’…whether that product is people, or a bunch of bow bedecked bballs in the ‘on sale’ bin due to rejection…

Economics via cultural mindshifts are what ultimately bury products and create change in the media maelstrom.

Thanks for the great conversation, Katherine, Seth, et al…as THAT is what blogging is about! :-)

]]> By: Katherine http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/25/can-we-stop-with-the-pink-and-the-bows-already/comment-page-1/#comment-222971 Katherine Sat, 29 Dec 2007 12:21:00 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/25/can-we-stop-with-the-pink-and-the-bows-already/#comment-222971 Seth, you may well think that that is a valid reason. Nevertheless, the point being made is that "what's workable for a popular commercial product" doesn't preclude analysis of what's workable for a popular commercial product. I think, in fact, that putting a bow on a basketball to represent "female" is a weak-arse excuse for "workable", and simply helps to perpetuate a stereotypical and inaccurate representation of "female". It's insulting, and stupid, in one lovely package. Seth, you may well think that that is a valid reason. Nevertheless, the point being made is that “what’s workable for a popular commercial product” doesn’t preclude analysis of what’s workable for a popular commercial product. I think, in fact, that putting a bow on a basketball to represent “female” is a weak-arse excuse for “workable”, and simply helps to perpetuate a stereotypical and inaccurate representation of “female”. It’s insulting, and stupid, in one lovely package.

]]> By: sara http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/25/can-we-stop-with-the-pink-and-the-bows-already/comment-page-1/#comment-222930 sara Fri, 28 Dec 2007 02:50:41 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/25/can-we-stop-with-the-pink-and-the-bows-already/#comment-222930 When I was a kid (some 30 years ago) it was still possible to buy clothes other than pinkandpurple for little girls. Now it's all pinkandpurple and I am glad that I have a 2-year-old nephew instead of a niece. Of course, in a few years I'll have to explain to him why I don't want to buy him war toys. It is more scary when women old enough to know better (you would think) go on dressing in pink. Maybe not with purple and glitter, but certainly pink. I live in, despite its cosmopolitan and megalopolitan pretenses, a Southern town. There are sorority girls and preppy wives. They wear Lilly Pulitzer dresses in summer. A couple of years ago, Kitchen Aid's entire line of appliances included pale pink. I tell myself, "I have got to move back to Greater New York City, where even the good girls wear black leather." When I was a kid (some 30 years ago) it was still possible to buy clothes other than pinkandpurple for little girls. Now it’s all pinkandpurple and I am glad that I have a 2-year-old nephew instead of a niece. Of course, in a few years I’ll have to explain to him why I don’t want to buy him war toys.

It is more scary when women old enough to know better (you would think) go on dressing in pink. Maybe not with purple and glitter, but certainly pink. I live in, despite its cosmopolitan and megalopolitan pretenses, a Southern town. There are sorority girls and preppy wives. They wear Lilly Pulitzer dresses in summer. A couple of years ago, Kitchen Aid’s entire line of appliances included pale pink.

I tell myself, “I have got to move back to Greater New York City, where even the good girls wear black leather.”

]]> By: Seth Finkelstein http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/25/can-we-stop-with-the-pink-and-the-bows-already/comment-page-1/#comment-222926 Seth Finkelstein Fri, 28 Dec 2007 01:20:27 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/25/can-we-stop-with-the-pink-and-the-bows-already/#comment-222926 Eszter / #31 - I'm saying the valid reason is basically to emphasize the "women" in WNBA. I see replies saying, I'll paraphrase, it doesn't need to be stressed because it's implicit, or it should be done in a more clever way. But I think those underestimate the constraints on what's workable for a popular commercial product in this particular case. Eszter / #31 – I’m saying the valid reason is basically to emphasize the “women” in WNBA. I see replies saying, I’ll paraphrase, it doesn’t need to be stressed because it’s implicit, or it should be done in a more clever way. But I think those underestimate the constraints on what’s workable for a popular commercial product in this particular case.

]]> By: joseph duemer http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/25/can-we-stop-with-the-pink-and-the-bows-already/comment-page-1/#comment-222910 joseph duemer Thu, 27 Dec 2007 22:11:25 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/25/can-we-stop-with-the-pink-and-the-bows-already/#comment-222910 Katherine: I don't know about the bows, but as someone interested in women's sport, especially the LPGA but also the WNBA, I can tell you that there is a "sports chic" that involves the big eyelashes, etc. Not that all players subscribe & not that it is necessarily a Good Thing, but it is an empirically verifiable fact. Maybe it's a form of false consciousness, but then so, perhaps, was the way Ma Rainey, Bessie Smith, & Janis Joplin toyed with symbols of femininity & in the process both reinscribing them on the culture & blowing them to pieces. Seth: Right, I thought of that when writing my comment above, but wanted to suggest that we desire or ought to desire a bit more with in our cultural shorthand. I believe piopular culture is capable of high wit. Katherine: I don’t know about the bows, but as someone interested in women’s sport, especially the LPGA but also the WNBA, I can tell you that there is a “sports chic” that involves the big eyelashes, etc. Not that all players subscribe & not that it is necessarily a Good Thing, but it is an empirically verifiable fact. Maybe it’s a form of false consciousness, but then so, perhaps, was the way Ma Rainey, Bessie Smith, & Janis Joplin toyed with symbols of femininity & in the process both reinscribing them on the culture & blowing them to pieces.

Seth: Right, I thought of that when writing my comment above, but wanted to suggest that we desire or ought to desire a bit more with in our cultural shorthand. I believe piopular culture is capable of high wit.

]]> By: Katherine http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/25/can-we-stop-with-the-pink-and-the-bows-already/comment-page-1/#comment-222903 Katherine Thu, 27 Dec 2007 21:16:30 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/25/can-we-stop-with-the-pink-and-the-bows-already/#comment-222903 Well, that's us told then. We're not going to break the loop here, so let's just shut up. Remind me again what blogging is for? Well, that’s us told then. We’re not going to break the loop here, so let’s just shut up. Remind me again what blogging is for?

]]> By: mpowell http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/25/can-we-stop-with-the-pink-and-the-bows-already/comment-page-1/#comment-222899 mpowell Thu, 27 Dec 2007 19:15:23 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/25/can-we-stop-with-the-pink-and-the-bows-already/#comment-222899 Consumer products like these are designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator in consumers. That leads to a lot of gendered products. Get mad at the company, I guess. It is a positive feedback loop. But I don't think this is where you're going to break the loop. Consumer products like these are designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator in consumers. That leads to a lot of gendered products. Get mad at the company, I guess. It is a positive feedback loop. But I don’t think this is where you’re going to break the loop.

]]> By: Katherine http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/25/can-we-stop-with-the-pink-and-the-bows-already/comment-page-1/#comment-222886 Katherine Thu, 27 Dec 2007 16:15:00 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/25/can-we-stop-with-the-pink-and-the-bows-already/#comment-222886 Yes Seth, we get it - gender signalling, simple and straightforward etc etc However, I find it (a) somewhat demeaning that I and my fellow 50% of the population are seen as a secondary version of humanity (male as neutral/normal, female as, well, something else) and (b) stupid and somewhat insulting that the signalling seen as so necessary (what, the letter "W" didn't give it away?) takes the form of bows and eyelashes, those well known accoutrements of basketball players. Yes Seth, we get it – gender signalling, simple and straightforward etc etc

However, I find it (a) somewhat demeaning that I and my fellow 50% of the population are seen as a secondary version of humanity (male as neutral/normal, female as, well, something else) and (b) stupid and somewhat insulting that the signalling seen as so necessary (what, the letter “W” didn’t give it away?) takes the form of bows and eyelashes, those well known accoutrements of basketball players.

]]> By: Eszter http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/25/can-we-stop-with-the-pink-and-the-bows-already/comment-page-1/#comment-222876 Eszter Thu, 27 Dec 2007 15:06:23 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/25/can-we-stop-with-the-pink-and-the-bows-already/#comment-222876 Seth, I don't see an argument here for a valid reason. Seth, I don’t see an argument here for a valid reason.

]]> By: Seth Finkelstein http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/25/can-we-stop-with-the-pink-and-the-bows-already/comment-page-1/#comment-222868 Seth Finkelstein Thu, 27 Dec 2007 05:34:48 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/25/can-we-stop-with-the-pink-and-the-bows-already/#comment-222868 Queenie - the symbols aren't transitive like that. I don't mean to imply that all WNBA toys would necessarily have to be gendered like the one under discussion. Just that this one has a valid reason for being the way it is. joseph duemer - But any widespread shorthand will almost by definition be one-dimensional and cliched. It has to be simple and not require a lot of thought to process. Queenie – the symbols aren’t transitive like that. I don’t mean to imply that all WNBA toys would necessarily have to be gendered like the one under discussion. Just that this one has a valid reason for being the way it is.

joseph duemer – But any widespread shorthand will almost by definition be one-dimensional and cliched. It has to be simple and not require a lot of thought to process.

]]> By: joseph duemer http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/25/can-we-stop-with-the-pink-and-the-bows-already/comment-page-1/#comment-222862 joseph duemer Wed, 26 Dec 2007 23:52:21 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/25/can-we-stop-with-the-pink-and-the-bows-already/#comment-222862 Maybe the problem is not that some objects -- toy basketballs -- are gendered, but that the shorthand used to gender them is so one-dimensional & clichéd. Maybe the problem is not that some objects—toy basketballs—are gendered, but that the shorthand used to gender them is so one-dimensional & clichéd.

]]> By: Queenie http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/25/can-we-stop-with-the-pink-and-the-bows-already/comment-page-1/#comment-222858 Queenie Wed, 26 Dec 2007 21:32:00 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/25/can-we-stop-with-the-pink-and-the-bows-already/#comment-222858 re: the ball- by nature of the difference between the NBA ball and the WNBA ball, the item is gendered by its nature. If you pick up a plush orange-and-oatmeal ball with a shield-shaped logo in its general vicinity, it's a WNBA toy. It doesn't need long eyelashes, or a bow, or lipstick, to be female. As a proud Liberty fan, I wander into the NBA Store every so often. I usually walk out seething. At least they've stabilized the section's location... For one thing, NBA for Her? DOES NOT EQUAL WNBA. I hate that they mix the sections together. I do not give a flying cow flop about the NBA, but I love my Liberty. Not to mention that I have major, major issues with pink team gear- WTF, wear your team colors, and unless you're an Italian soccer fan, I'm pretty sure your team colors don't include pink. Then there's the fact that they don't really take the section all that seriously. I remember all the times I've gone in there and said "but that doesn't go there! And she got traded two months ago! And damnit, that's a Phoenix jersey with Sacramento shorts!" Sure, they're both purple. But do you think they'd make the same mistake with the Raptors and the Kings? What ticks me off is how much of it is for kids, to be honest. And a couple of the guys I know are also steamed because they can't get gear (because, y'know, men don't watch women's sports; I must be hallucinating them, then). The worst part about all this? The WNBA's league office is in Olympic Tower. That's maybe two blocks away. This is going on under their noses. Go women's lib, huh? re: the ball- by nature of the difference between the NBA ball and the WNBA ball, the item is gendered by its nature. If you pick up a plush orange-and-oatmeal ball with a shield-shaped logo in its general vicinity, it’s a WNBA toy. It doesn’t need long eyelashes, or a bow, or lipstick, to be female.

As a proud Liberty fan, I wander into the NBA Store every so often. I usually walk out seething. At least they’ve stabilized the section’s location…

For one thing, NBA for Her? DOES NOT EQUAL WNBA. I hate that they mix the sections together. I do not give a flying cow flop about the NBA, but I love my Liberty. Not to mention that I have major, major issues with pink team gear- WTF, wear your team colors, and unless you’re an Italian soccer fan, I’m pretty sure your team colors don’t include pink.

Then there’s the fact that they don’t really take the section all that seriously. I remember all the times I’ve gone in there and said “but that doesn’t go there! And she got traded two months ago! And damnit, that’s a Phoenix jersey with Sacramento shorts!” Sure, they’re both purple. But do you think they’d make the same mistake with the Raptors and the Kings?

What ticks me off is how much of it is for kids, to be honest. And a couple of the guys I know are also steamed because they can’t get gear (because, y’know, men don’t watch women’s sports; I must be hallucinating them, then).

The worst part about all this? The WNBA’s league office is in Olympic Tower. That’s maybe two blocks away. This is going on under their noses. Go women’s lib, huh?

]]> By: magistra http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/25/can-we-stop-with-the-pink-and-the-bows-already/comment-page-1/#comment-222856 magistra Wed, 26 Dec 2007 21:06:25 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/25/can-we-stop-with-the-pink-and-the-bows-already/#comment-222856 I think gender stereotyping of clothes for girls has definitely increased in the UK. When I was a child in the 1970s, I wore pink sometimes and purple rarely. Now it's hard to find girls' clothes that aren't pink and/or purple. But I think this increased emphasis on external signs of gender may be a reaction to the fact that girls' and boys' actual attitudes and interests are arguably getting closer (based on survey evidence). And I'm not sure whether it's a good or bad sign that at one UK toy shop you can now buy a pink mini rugby ball. Is it simply stereotyping, or is it also a sign of acceptance that girls do want to play such sports? I think gender stereotyping of clothes for girls has definitely increased in the UK. When I was a child in the 1970s, I wore pink sometimes and purple rarely. Now it’s hard to find girls’ clothes that aren’t pink and/or purple.

But I think this increased emphasis on external signs of gender may be a reaction to the fact that girls’ and boys’ actual attitudes and interests are arguably getting closer (based on survey evidence). And I’m not sure whether it’s a good or bad sign that at one UK toy shop you can now buy a pink mini rugby ball. Is it simply stereotyping, or is it also a sign of acceptance that girls do want to play such sports?

]]> By: Seth Finkelstein http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/25/can-we-stop-with-the-pink-and-the-bows-already/comment-page-1/#comment-222855 Seth Finkelstein Wed, 26 Dec 2007 20:54:54 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/25/can-we-stop-with-the-pink-and-the-bows-already/#comment-222855 KCinDC: The male-by-default issue is an "<em>is</em>" vs "<em>ought</em>". I'm all for people making a new symbolic vocabularly, but it's a lot harder to get usage than simply declaring one (like constructed languages don't seem to get wide adoption, e.g. Esperanto). My point is that the toy-maker was likely intending to make a definitive assertion of gender, rather than having it ambiguous or undefined. And that actually makes sense <em>in this particular case</em>, given that women's basketball is much less publicized. KCinDC: The male-by-default issue is an “is” vs “ought“. I’m all for people making a new symbolic vocabularly, but it’s a lot harder to get usage than simply declaring one (like constructed languages don’t seem to get wide adoption, e.g. Esperanto). My point is that the toy-maker was likely intending to make a definitive assertion of gender, rather than having it ambiguous or undefined. And that actually makes sense in this particular case, given that women’s basketball is much less publicized.

]]> By: Eszter http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/25/can-we-stop-with-the-pink-and-the-bows-already/comment-page-1/#comment-222854 Eszter Wed, 26 Dec 2007 20:38:05 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2007/12/25/can-we-stop-with-the-pink-and-the-bows-already/#comment-222854 KCinDC, thanks for making that point about defaults. Witt, I agree with you, it seems to me to be going backwards. But part of me doesn't know if I just wasn't paying that much attention before. (Granted, didn't someone in an earlier related thread - here or on another blog:) - point to an article about the recent push of princess merchandising all around?) I can't really generalize from my own childhood, because I only spent a few years in the States and I figure in Hungary there just wasn't nearly as much consumerism period so that may explain why I don't recall such levels of differentiation between the genders. KCinDC, thanks for making that point about defaults.

Witt, I agree with you, it seems to me to be going backwards. But part of me doesn’t know if I just wasn’t paying that much attention before. (Granted, didn’t someone in an earlier related thread – here or on another blog:) – point to an article about the recent push of princess merchandising all around?) I can’t really generalize from my own childhood, because I only spent a few years in the States and I figure in Hungary there just wasn’t nearly as much consumerism period so that may explain why I don’t recall such levels of differentiation between the genders.

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