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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;Heil Myself!&#8221; (and other rude Goldberg devices)</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/02/heil-myself-and-other-rude-goldberg-devices/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/02/heil-myself-and-other-rude-goldberg-devices/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Sunday Bookchat &#171; The Opinion Mill</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/02/heil-myself-and-other-rude-goldberg-devices/comment-page-3/#comment-223639</link>
		<dc:creator>Sunday Bookchat &#171; The Opinion Mill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jan 2008 12:45:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/02/heil-myself-and-other-rude-goldberg-devices/#comment-223639</guid>
		<description>[...] Goldberg, the author of those words, wants his book Liberal Fascism to be taken seriously, and John Holbo gives it a shot at Crooked Timber. Holbo also speaks for many of us when he wonders why David Oshinsky was so gentle with Goldberg in [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] Goldberg, the author of those words, wants his book Liberal Fascism to be taken seriously, and John Holbo gives it a shot at Crooked Timber. Holbo also speaks for many of us when he wonders why David Oshinsky was so gentle with Goldberg in [...]</p>
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		<title>By: dadanarchist</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/02/heil-myself-and-other-rude-goldberg-devices/comment-page-3/#comment-223509</link>
		<dc:creator>dadanarchist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 21:37:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/02/heil-myself-and-other-rude-goldberg-devices/#comment-223509</guid>
		<description>Let&#039;s be realistic here, it was not a serious or in-depth review, more what back in the day would have been called a &quot;notice&quot; - goes through the content and argument of the book, some praise, some criticism - much like most of the reviews in the NY Times Sunday Book Review. 


Besides, I thought that Oshinsky was being ironic. His whole tone seemed to me slightly bemused and if you were being more cynical, academically contemptuous of Goldberg&#039;s book. I&#039;m sure if we could have seen him winking and nodding in print, well, Goldberg wouldn&#039;t be so happy with himself.

As it is, Goldberg seems to be grasping at straws in clinging to this review. I wonder if the New York Review of Books will run a review of the book or if, correctly, they assume the book is below their threshold, and not worth responding to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Let&#8217;s be realistic here, it was not a serious or in-depth review, more what back in the day would have been called a &#8220;notice&#8221; &#8211; goes through the content and argument of the book, some praise, some criticism &#8211; much like most of the reviews in the <span class="caps">NY </span>Times Sunday Book Review.</p>


	<p>Besides, I thought that Oshinsky was being ironic. His whole tone seemed to me slightly bemused and if you were being more cynical, academically contemptuous of Goldberg&#8217;s book. I&#8217;m sure if we could have seen him winking and nodding in print, well, Goldberg wouldn&#8217;t be so happy with himself.</p>

	<p>As it is, Goldberg seems to be grasping at straws in clinging to this review. I wonder if the New York Review of Books will run a review of the book or if, correctly, they assume the book is below their threshold, and not worth responding to.</p>
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		<title>By: Hume's Ghost</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/02/heil-myself-and-other-rude-goldberg-devices/comment-page-3/#comment-223506</link>
		<dc:creator>Hume's Ghost</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 21:01:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/02/heil-myself-and-other-rude-goldberg-devices/#comment-223506</guid>
		<description>http://www.amazon.com/DAnnunzio-First-Duce-Michael-Ledeen/dp/0765807424

That&#039;s it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/DAnnunzio-First-Duce-Michael-Ledeen/dp/0765807424" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/DAnnunzio-First-Duce-Michael-Ledeen/dp/0765807424</a></p>

	<p>That&#8217;s it.</p>
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		<title>By: Hume's Ghost</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/02/heil-myself-and-other-rude-goldberg-devices/comment-page-3/#comment-223505</link>
		<dc:creator>Hume's Ghost</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 20:58:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/02/heil-myself-and-other-rude-goldberg-devices/#comment-223505</guid>
		<description>Has anyone bothered to point out to Goldberg that his pal Michael Ledeen wrote a hagiography of a fascist?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Has anyone bothered to point out to Goldberg that his pal Michael Ledeen wrote a hagiography of a fascist?</p>
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		<title>By: Ginger Yellow</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/02/heil-myself-and-other-rude-goldberg-devices/comment-page-2/#comment-223479</link>
		<dc:creator>Ginger Yellow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 19:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/02/heil-myself-and-other-rude-goldberg-devices/#comment-223479</guid>
		<description>Jesus, SK. The point is that you wouldn&#039;t have to read walt&#039;s book, let alone in it entirety, to know that it&#039;s bullshit.

As to your original point: no, Goldberg does not say that fascism is liberalism taken to the extreme. He says that liberalism, or at least &quot;progressivism&quot; is &lt;i&gt;inherently fascist.&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Jesus, SK. The point is that you wouldn&#8217;t have to read walt&#8217;s book, let alone in it entirety, to know that it&#8217;s bullshit.</p>

	<p>As to your original point: no, Goldberg does not say that fascism is liberalism taken to the extreme. He says that liberalism, or at least &#8220;progressivism&#8221; is <i>inherently fascist.</i></p>
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		<title>By: Sk</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/02/heil-myself-and-other-rude-goldberg-devices/comment-page-2/#comment-223469</link>
		<dc:creator>Sk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 18:15:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/02/heil-myself-and-other-rude-goldberg-devices/#comment-223469</guid>
		<description>How do people on this website define &#039;rude&#039;?

Sk</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>How do people on this website define &#8216;rude&#8217;?</p>

	<p>Sk</p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/02/heil-myself-and-other-rude-goldberg-devices/comment-page-2/#comment-223452</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 17:19:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/02/heil-myself-and-other-rude-goldberg-devices/#comment-223452</guid>
		<description>As I understand, the boys that SK may or may not have raped weren&#039;t exactly &quot;small&quot;. They were very big for their age and could have been mistaken for 14-year-olds, maybe 15-year-olds.

Holbo is still a Nazi, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>As I understand, the boys that SK may or may not have raped weren&#8217;t exactly &#8220;small&#8221;. They were very big for their age and could have been mistaken for 14-year-olds, maybe 15-year-olds.</p>

	<p>Holbo is still a Nazi, though.</p>
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		<title>By: Sk</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/02/heil-myself-and-other-rude-goldberg-devices/comment-page-2/#comment-223433</link>
		<dc:creator>Sk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 12:41:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/02/heil-myself-and-other-rude-goldberg-devices/#comment-223433</guid>
		<description>&quot;What I find interesting is that SK comments on this thread, rather than reading and reviewing my forthcoming opus from Regnery Press, “SK Rapes Little Boys”.&quot;

John H- Do you consider this acceptable dialogue on your website?

Sk</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;What I find interesting is that SK comments on this thread, rather than reading and reviewing my forthcoming opus from Regnery Press, &#8220;SK Rapes Little Boys&#8221;.&#8221;</p>

	<p>John H- Do you consider this acceptable dialogue on your website?</p>

	<p>Sk</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Weiner</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/02/heil-myself-and-other-rude-goldberg-devices/comment-page-2/#comment-223422</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Weiner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 04:20:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/02/heil-myself-and-other-rude-goldberg-devices/#comment-223422</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;That’s about as asinine an attempt at rationalizing an anti-intellectual position as I’ve heard in the last year.&lt;/i&gt;

Woo! I am the winner! 

No, seriously, what mq said. And did you check &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/8301.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the link&lt;/a&gt;? Citing unreliable bigot lunatics in the service of a Very Serious Argument for a thesis that&#039;s ridiculous on its face -- that&#039;s really a very reliable sign that a book is worthless.

(And yes, that means I did read a little bit of the book, the bits posted at Sadly, No! Still, I maintain that you can have extremely good evidence that a book sucks without having read any of it. For instance, I haven&#039;t read any of &lt;i&gt;The Pink Swastika&lt;/i&gt; or the work of David Irving, but the descriptions I&#039;ve read of them are enough to discredit them. I wrote a dissertation about how you can gain evidence from what other people say about things you haven&#039;t directly experienced, so this isn&#039;t just an anti-intellectual position.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>That&#8217;s about as asinine an attempt at rationalizing an anti-intellectual position as I&#8217;ve heard in the last year.</i></p>

	<p>Woo! I am the winner!</p>

	<p>No, seriously, what mq said. And did you check <a href="http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/8301.html" rel="nofollow">the link</a>? Citing unreliable bigot lunatics in the service of a Very Serious Argument for a thesis that&#8217;s ridiculous on its face&#8212;that&#8217;s really a very reliable sign that a book is worthless.</p>

	<p>(And yes, that means I did read a little bit of the book, the bits posted at Sadly, No! Still, I maintain that you can have extremely good evidence that a book sucks without having read any of it. For instance, I haven&#8217;t read any of <i>The Pink Swastika</i> or the work of David Irving, but the descriptions I&#8217;ve read of them are enough to discredit them. I wrote a dissertation about how you can gain evidence from what other people say about things you haven&#8217;t directly experienced, so this isn&#8217;t just an anti-intellectual position.)</p>
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		<title>By: mq</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/02/heil-myself-and-other-rude-goldberg-devices/comment-page-2/#comment-223420</link>
		<dc:creator>mq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 01:16:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/02/heil-myself-and-other-rude-goldberg-devices/#comment-223420</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt; That’s about as asinine an attempt at rationalizing an anti-intellectual position as I’ve heard in the last year. &lt;/i&gt;

To take you seriously for a moment, there is more than enough free material available on the net to allow a judgement on how very bad this book is. Do you have to buy and read every single book you see in the bookstore before deciding that it&#039;s a waste of your time?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i> That&#8217;s about as asinine an attempt at rationalizing an anti-intellectual position as I&#8217;ve heard in the last year. </i></p>

	<p>To take you seriously for a moment, there is more than enough free material available on the net to allow a judgement on how very bad this book is. Do you have to buy and read every single book you see in the bookstore before deciding that it&#8217;s a waste of your time?</p>
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		<title>By: Walt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/02/heil-myself-and-other-rude-goldberg-devices/comment-page-2/#comment-223412</link>
		<dc:creator>Walt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 20:29:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/02/heil-myself-and-other-rude-goldberg-devices/#comment-223412</guid>
		<description>What I find interesting is that SK comments on this thread, rather than reading and reviewing my forthcoming opus from Regnery Press, &quot;SK Rapes Little Boys&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>What I find interesting is that SK comments on this thread, rather than reading and reviewing my forthcoming opus from Regnery Press, &#8220;SK Rapes Little Boys&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Ginger Yellow</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/02/heil-myself-and-other-rude-goldberg-devices/comment-page-2/#comment-223406</link>
		<dc:creator>Ginger Yellow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 19:31:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/02/heil-myself-and-other-rude-goldberg-devices/#comment-223406</guid>
		<description>&quot;John, isn’t the lesson of this contretemps simply that you can argue anything if you raise your concepts to a level of generality suitable for your argument?&quot;

Even on his own terms, however, Goldberg&#039;s argument fails spectacularly. To take an example, his bizarre argument about the Nazis and homosexuals applies far more to the conservative movement than it does to liberals. To throw his own words back at him, while it is true that conservatives oppose equal rights for homosexuals, it is also the case that the Republican Party and the constellation of conservative organizations in its orbit are rife with homosexuals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;John, isn&#8217;t the lesson of this contretemps simply that you can argue anything if you raise your concepts to a level of generality suitable for your argument?&#8221;</p>

	<p>Even on his own terms, however, Goldberg&#8217;s argument fails spectacularly. To take an example, his bizarre argument about the Nazis and homosexuals applies far more to the conservative movement than it does to liberals. To throw his own words back at him, while it is true that conservatives oppose equal rights for homosexuals, it is also the case that the Republican Party and the constellation of conservative organizations in its orbit are rife with homosexuals.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray Davis</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/02/heil-myself-and-other-rude-goldberg-devices/comment-page-2/#comment-223402</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray Davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 18:29:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/02/heil-myself-and-other-rude-goldberg-devices/#comment-223402</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJVDW2jCMus&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;Heil myself&quot;&lt;/a&gt; is one of the greatest gags from Ernst Lubitsch&#039;s &lt;i&gt;To Be or Not to Be&lt;/i&gt;. Mel Brooks wisely kept it in the remake.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJVDW2jCMus" rel="nofollow">&#8220;Heil myself&#8221;</a> is one of the greatest gags from Ernst Lubitsch&#8217;s <i>To Be or Not to Be</i>. Mel Brooks wisely kept it in the remake.</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/02/heil-myself-and-other-rude-goldberg-devices/comment-page-2/#comment-223397</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 17:42:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/02/heil-myself-and-other-rude-goldberg-devices/#comment-223397</guid>
		<description>John, isn&#039;t the lesson of this contretemps simply that you can argue anything if you raise your concepts to a level of generality suitable for your argument?

I&#039;m a lawyer, and I see this sort of exercise regularly done in arguments about the Constitution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>John, isn&#8217;t the lesson of this contretemps simply that you can argue anything if you raise your concepts to a level of generality suitable for your argument?</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m a lawyer, and I see this sort of exercise regularly done in arguments about the Constitution.</p>
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		<title>By: cw</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/02/heil-myself-and-other-rude-goldberg-devices/comment-page-2/#comment-223390</link>
		<dc:creator>cw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 17:03:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/02/heil-myself-and-other-rude-goldberg-devices/#comment-223390</guid>
		<description>JG admitted in a raido interview that the book is an exercise in &quot;I know you are but what am I.&quot; He&#039;s trying to create a defense for his team against the scratch-a-conservative-and-you&#039;ll-find a-fascist attack by claiming fascism and modern american liberalism share the same intellectual roots. Proto american liberals were collectivist (whatever that really means) and believed improving citizens lives through a strong state. Fasicst said and did some things that sounded similar in their early days. But the relevancy of the connection between the two ideologies is trivial at best. It&#039;s dumb. But it&#039;s not anne coulter and I don&#039;t think Goldberg has Rovian motives.  See JG for who he is and see his book for who he is, and then it&#039;s not such a big deal. It&#039;s kind of funny really.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>JG admitted in a raido interview that the book is an exercise in &#8220;I know you are but what am I.&#8221; He&#8217;s trying to create a defense for his team against the scratch-a-conservative-and-you&#8217;ll-find a-fascist attack by claiming fascism and modern american liberalism share the same intellectual roots. Proto american liberals were collectivist (whatever that really means) and believed improving citizens lives through a strong state. Fasicst said and did some things that sounded similar in their early days. But the relevancy of the connection between the two ideologies is trivial at best. It&#8217;s dumb. But it&#8217;s not anne coulter and I don&#8217;t think Goldberg has Rovian motives.  See JG for who he is and see his book for who he is, and then it&#8217;s not such a big deal. It&#8217;s kind of funny really.</p>
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