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	<title>Comments on: Huckmentum</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/05/huckmentum/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Henry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/05/huckmentum/comment-page-1/#comment-223827</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jan 2008 20:47:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/05/huckmentum/#comment-223827</guid>
		<description>Eric - I got the figure in question from this &quot;NYT story&quot;:http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/04/us/politics/04repubs.html?_r=1&amp;ref=politics&amp;oref=slogin.  The piece claims that evangelical turnout was around 40% in previous elections. I don&#039;t know the source for their claims, but this isn&#039;t the kind of question where ambiguities in the phrasing are likely to produce artefacts, so I imagine that it is unlikely to be far off the truth. More bradly, my understanding as a non-specialist in this particular area of politics is that, to put it mildly, the general public perception that evangelical Christianity correlates strongly with Republican voter ID is, to put it mildly, supported by the polling evidence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Eric &#8211; I got the figure in question from this <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/04/us/politics/04repubs.html?_r=1&#038;ref=politics&#038;oref=slogin" title=""><span class="caps">NYT</span> story</a>.  The piece claims that evangelical turnout was around 40% in previous elections. I don&#8217;t know the source for their claims, but this isn&#8217;t the kind of question where ambiguities in the phrasing are likely to produce artefacts, so I imagine that it is unlikely to be far off the truth. More bradly, my understanding as a non-specialist in this particular area of politics is that, to put it mildly, the general public perception that evangelical Christianity correlates strongly with Republican voter ID is, to put it mildly, supported by the polling evidence.</p>
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		<title>By: David in NY</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/05/huckmentum/comment-page-1/#comment-223790</link>
		<dc:creator>David in NY</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jan 2008 14:37:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/05/huckmentum/#comment-223790</guid>
		<description>Has anybody noticed that No. 2 is illegal?  Those pastors who are organizing for are violating tax regulations and clearly ought to lose their tax deductions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Has anybody noticed that No. 2 is illegal?  Those pastors who are organizing for are violating tax regulations and clearly ought to lose their tax deductions.</p>
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		<title>By: c.l. ball</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/05/huckmentum/comment-page-1/#comment-223725</link>
		<dc:creator>c.l. ball</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jan 2008 01:22:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/05/huckmentum/#comment-223725</guid>
		<description>If Huckabee ends up w/ 20% of NH, I&#039;d say there is something to Henry&#039;s argument.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>If Huckabee ends up w/ 20% of NH, I&#8217;d say there is something to Henry&#8217;s argument.</p>
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		<title>By: MSS</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/05/huckmentum/comment-page-1/#comment-223693</link>
		<dc:creator>MSS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jan 2008 20:22:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/05/huckmentum/#comment-223693</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Roger.

Well, Kucinich did hold &lt;a href=&quot;http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=1482&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;a hearing in Fallbrook&lt;/a&gt;, but one guesses it earned him few votes (there or elsewhere). It certainly did not shape the race.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thanks, Roger.</p>

	<p>Well, Kucinich did hold <a href="http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=1482" rel="nofollow">a hearing in Fallbrook</a>, but one guesses it earned him few votes (there or elsewhere). It certainly did not shape the race.</p>
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		<title>By: A. Y. Mous</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/05/huckmentum/comment-page-1/#comment-223691</link>
		<dc:creator>A. Y. Mous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jan 2008 19:54:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/05/huckmentum/#comment-223691</guid>
		<description>Why is so much effort and thought wasted on Huckabee? Even a nine year old knows that he will not get the nomination. That is for sure. Proof? 

&quot;Arrogant foreign policy
We need 400,000 troops
Don&#039;t let politicians get involved
Leave it to military with blood on their boots.&quot;

 http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/1/6/25723/26527/751/431492</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Why is so much effort and thought wasted on Huckabee? Even a nine year old knows that he will not get the nomination. That is for sure. Proof?</p>

	<p>&#8220;Arrogant foreign policy<br />
We need 400,000 troops<br />
Don&#8217;t let politicians get involved<br />
Leave it to military with blood on their boots.&#8221;</p>

	<p><a href="http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/1/6/25723/26527/751/431492" rel="nofollow">http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/1/6/25723/26527/751/431492</a></p>
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		<title>By: roger</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/05/huckmentum/comment-page-1/#comment-223688</link>
		<dc:creator>roger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jan 2008 19:29:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/05/huckmentum/#comment-223688</guid>
		<description>MSS - I think Kucinich actually campaigned in 2004, instead of just showing up for tv. 

Now, if he - or some Dem - had really wanted to do some shaping work, last year in Spring they should have taken a leaf from RFK&#039;s book, and Ron Dellums, and use the power to hold hearings ELSEWHERE THAN D.C. RFK used hearings he held in South Mississippi on poverty to publicize the issue in 65 or 66, I can&#039;t remember which; Dellums held extensive hearing in a number of cities across the U.S. on the Vietnam war. If the brain of the Dem party hadn&#039;t been eaten by consultants in 1996, the no brainer thing to do, in Spring of last year, would have been to break out of D.C. and hold exactly those kinds of hearings about Iraq in a number of major U.S. cities. 

Now, that would be wonderful shaping work - but you wonder whether the Democratic establishment would like it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><span class="caps">MSS </span>- I think Kucinich actually campaigned in 2004, instead of just showing up for tv.</p>

	<p>Now, if he &#8211; or some Dem &#8211; had really wanted to do some shaping work, last year in Spring they should have taken a leaf from <span class="caps">RFK</span>&#8217;s book, and Ron Dellums, and use the power to hold hearings <span class="caps">ELSEWHERE THAN D</span>.C. <span class="caps">RFK</span> used hearings he held in South Mississippi on poverty to publicize the issue in 65 or 66, I can&#8217;t remember which; Dellums held extensive hearing in a number of cities across the U.S. on the Vietnam war. If the brain of the Dem party hadn&#8217;t been eaten by consultants in 1996, the no brainer thing to do, in Spring of last year, would have been to break out of D.C. and hold exactly those kinds of hearings about Iraq in a number of major U.S. cities.</p>

	<p>Now, that would be wonderful shaping work &#8211; but you wonder whether the Democratic establishment would like it.</p>
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		<title>By: MSS</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/05/huckmentum/comment-page-1/#comment-223685</link>
		<dc:creator>MSS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jan 2008 18:51:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/05/huckmentum/#comment-223685</guid>
		<description>Roger, at #32, makes one of the most profound statements about what voting and political competition should be--and how our process tramples on what should be the fundamental exercise of democracy--that I have read in some time. (And I think I know something about voting.)

I would be curious to know how Roger (or anyone else) would understand his claim that &quot;Kucinich has given up trying to be shaper.&quot; Given the media environment Roger describes, the electoral rules, the campaign finance system, and other limitations on American &quot;democracy,&quot; what could Kucinich do to be a &quot;shaper&quot;?

Is anyone who is not focused single-mindedly on winning, and thus raising issues outside the mainstream, doing any better at shaping, given the  constraints?

Mike Gravel, for example, by making &lt;a href=&quot;http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=1497&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;fundamental political reform&lt;/a&gt; his signature issue for anyone who will pay attention? Ron Paul, by being more outspokenly anti-imperialist than even Kucinich would dare?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Roger, at #32, makes one of the most profound statements about what voting and political competition should be&#8212;and how our process tramples on what should be the fundamental exercise of democracy&#8212;that I have read in some time. (And I think I know something about voting.)</p>

	<p>I would be curious to know how Roger (or anyone else) would understand his claim that &#8220;Kucinich has given up trying to be shaper.&#8221; Given the media environment Roger describes, the electoral rules, the campaign finance system, and other limitations on American &#8220;democracy,&#8221; what could Kucinich do to be a &#8220;shaper&#8221;?</p>

	<p>Is anyone who is not focused single-mindedly on winning, and thus raising issues outside the mainstream, doing any better at shaping, given the  constraints?</p>

	<p>Mike Gravel, for example, by making <a href="http://fruitsandvotes.com/?p=1497" rel="nofollow">fundamental political reform</a> his signature issue for anyone who will pay attention? Ron Paul, by being more outspokenly anti-imperialist than even Kucinich would dare?</p>
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		<title>By: Martin James</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/05/huckmentum/comment-page-1/#comment-223643</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jan 2008 15:33:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/05/huckmentum/#comment-223643</guid>
		<description>William, we&#039;re talking primaries here.  In jest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>William, we&#8217;re talking primaries here.  In jest.</p>
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		<title>By: William Burns</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/05/huckmentum/comment-page-1/#comment-223640</link>
		<dc:creator>William Burns</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jan 2008 13:06:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/05/huckmentum/#comment-223640</guid>
		<description>Martin James:

Kerry was taller than Bush.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Martin James:</p>

	<p>Kerry was taller than Bush.</p>
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		<title>By: amrood</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/05/huckmentum/comment-page-1/#comment-223629</link>
		<dc:creator>amrood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jan 2008 09:14:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/05/huckmentum/#comment-223629</guid>
		<description>NH debate vs. an NFL wild card game.  
I wonder which show had the higher ratings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>NH debate vs. an <span class="caps">NFL</span> wild card game.<br />
I wonder which show had the higher ratings.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin James</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/05/huckmentum/comment-page-1/#comment-223623</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jan 2008 06:14:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/05/huckmentum/#comment-223623</guid>
		<description>A few points.

McCain ticked off the money with all the campaign finance reform crap that make it more cumbersome for the biggest money to have the biggest influence.

Romney can stay in the game with his own (and other Mormon&#039;s)  money.

Guiliani will still get votes in the big states FL and NY.

The key to Huckabee is the South.  The South has the most realpolitic voters in the USA.  They vote to win, period.  Bible thumpers in the South are different from elsewhere because they are the majority they don&#039;t need to vote for them every time out.  If the South thinks Huckabee can win it all, he&#039;ll win the South, if not he won&#039;t.

Don&#039;t forget, in the last several elections, the tallest candidate wins.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>A few points.</p>

	<p>McCain ticked off the money with all the campaign finance reform crap that make it more cumbersome for the biggest money to have the biggest influence.</p>

	<p>Romney can stay in the game with his own (and other Mormon&#8217;s)  money.</p>

	<p>Guiliani will still get votes in the big states FL and NY.</p>

	<p>The key to Huckabee is the South.  The South has the most realpolitic voters in the <span class="caps">USA</span>.  They vote to win, period.  Bible thumpers in the South are different from elsewhere because they are the majority they don&#8217;t need to vote for them every time out.  If the South thinks Huckabee can win it all, he&#8217;ll win the South, if not he won&#8217;t.</p>

	<p>Don&#8217;t forget, in the last several elections, the tallest candidate wins.</p>
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		<title>By: Eli Rabett</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/05/huckmentum/comment-page-1/#comment-223620</link>
		<dc:creator>Eli Rabett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jan 2008 02:47:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/05/huckmentum/#comment-223620</guid>
		<description>Huckabee splits the theocrat vote.  There is no way that conservative Catholics are going to vote for a guy who thinks they are damned.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Huckabee splits the theocrat vote.  There is no way that conservative Catholics are going to vote for a guy who thinks they are damned.</p>
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		<title>By: Roger</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/05/huckmentum/comment-page-1/#comment-223619</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jan 2008 02:38:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/05/huckmentum/#comment-223619</guid>
		<description>Crystal, I don&#039;t think of Kucinich as radical. I think are two types of candidates - those who want to win, and those who want to shape the race. Those are both honorable ambitions. Unlike a sport, like baseball, an election is not about who wins it, a symbolic and self closing goal, but about how we all live. That&#039;s one of the real damages done to the process by the press - by making it more like a sport, it makes it seem like the only &#039;serious&#039; business of elections is winning. But that isn&#039;t true at all, obviously, since the early 1800s. Elections are just one of the set of tools the citizen has in a democracy - it becomes more and more of a joke as it is treated more and more like a sports contest. The shapers are important, which is why political journalism is so disgusting, so much the instrument of vested interests, so anti-democratic. That Fox is getting away with excluding Paul, for instance, is a scandal. They should be severely fined for that by the FCC, or at least forced to mark the debate down as an advertisement for the candidates debating there instead of as a civic exercise. 
 
However, Kucinich has given up trying to be shaper.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Crystal, I don&#8217;t think of Kucinich as radical. I think are two types of candidates &#8211; those who want to win, and those who want to shape the race. Those are both honorable ambitions. Unlike a sport, like baseball, an election is not about who wins it, a symbolic and self closing goal, but about how we all live. That&#8217;s one of the real damages done to the process by the press &#8211; by making it more like a sport, it makes it seem like the only &#8216;serious&#8217; business of elections is winning. But that isn&#8217;t true at all, obviously, since the early 1800s. Elections are just one of the set of tools the citizen has in a democracy &#8211; it becomes more and more of a joke as it is treated more and more like a sports contest. The shapers are important, which is why political journalism is so disgusting, so much the instrument of vested interests, so anti-democratic. That Fox is getting away with excluding Paul, for instance, is a scandal. They should be severely fined for that by the <span class="caps">FCC</span>, or at least forced to mark the debate down as an advertisement for the candidates debating there instead of as a civic exercise.</p>

	<p>However, Kucinich has given up trying to be shaper.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/05/huckmentum/comment-page-1/#comment-223618</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jan 2008 02:21:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/05/huckmentum/#comment-223618</guid>
		<description>Bruce @ 26:  I don&#039;t think we should take those interpretations from the NYT or WaPo on faith.  Let&#039;s look at the empirical claims you&#039;ve taken from them.

&quot;...downgraded Huckabee’s chance of getting the actual nomination on the grounds that in your average GOP primary, evangelicals comprise only 40% of the GOP vote (vs. their 60% share of it in Iowa).&quot;

Where does this 40% of the GOP vote as evangelicals come from?

&quot;If you take a look at CNN’s Iowas exit poll, however, if evangelicals had made up only 40% of the turnout Huckabee would still have run even with Romney (27% each).&quot;

This gets at several of the problems with the media gloss on the Iowa returns.  Let&#039;s look at the CNN framing.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/01/03/iowa.issues/index.html

Headline: &quot;Democrats voted for change, GOP for faith and values&quot;  

The headline implies, of course, that the Democrats did not vote for faith and values.  But if you look at the marginals on the same site, it seems that the faith and values questions were not asked of the Democratic caucus goers.  An alternative explanation is that the questions were asked but not presented by CNN, MSNBC, etc.  Let&#039;s call that doubtful.  And if the questions weren&#039;t asked of Democrats, we have no basis for making any claims about the relative importance of religion on turnout and/or vote choice for Republicans vs. Democrats.

On the same CNN page, if you click through to the GOP entrance poll results, the marginals on the &quot;evangelical&quot; question indicate &quot;Born-Again or Evangelical Christian?&quot;  That suggests that the entrance poll question was something like &quot;Do you consider yourself to be a Born-Again or Evangelical Christian?&quot; That&#039;s speculation on my part; I don&#039;t know the answer.   My guess, though, is that if one had a national sample, you wouldn&#039;t be too far from 50% answering yes to such a question.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Bruce @ 26:  I don&#8217;t think we should take those interpretations from the <span class="caps">NYT</span> or WaPo on faith.  Let&#8217;s look at the empirical claims you&#8217;ve taken from them.</p>

	<p>&#8220;&#8230;downgraded Huckabee&#8217;s chance of getting the actual nomination on the grounds that in your average <span class="caps">GOP</span> primary, evangelicals comprise only 40% of the <span class="caps">GOP</span> vote (vs. their 60% share of it in Iowa).&#8221;</p>

	<p>Where does this 40% of the <span class="caps">GOP</span> vote as evangelicals come from?</p>

	<p>&#8220;If you take a look at <span class="caps">CNN</span>&#8217;s Iowas exit poll, however, if evangelicals had made up only 40% of the turnout Huckabee would still have run even with Romney (27% each).&#8221;</p>

	<p>This gets at several of the problems with the media gloss on the Iowa returns.  Let&#8217;s look at the <span class="caps">CNN</span> framing.</p>

	<p><a href="http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/01/03/iowa.issues/index.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/01/03/iowa.issues/index.html</a></p>

	<p>Headline: &#8220;Democrats voted for change, <span class="caps">GOP</span> for faith and values&#8221;</p>

	<p>The headline implies, of course, that the Democrats did not vote for faith and values.  But if you look at the marginals on the same site, it seems that the faith and values questions were not asked of the Democratic caucus goers.  An alternative explanation is that the questions were asked but not presented by <span class="caps">CNN</span>, MSNBC, etc.  Let&#8217;s call that doubtful.  And if the questions weren&#8217;t asked of Democrats, we have no basis for making any claims about the relative importance of religion on turnout and/or vote choice for Republicans vs. Democrats.</p>

	<p>On the same <span class="caps">CNN</span> page, if you click through to the <span class="caps">GOP</span> entrance poll results, the marginals on the &#8220;evangelical&#8221; question indicate &#8220;Born-Again or Evangelical Christian?&#8221;  That suggests that the entrance poll question was something like &#8220;Do you consider yourself to be a Born-Again or Evangelical Christian?&#8221; That&#8217;s speculation on my part; I don&#8217;t know the answer.   My guess, though, is that if one had a national sample, you wouldn&#8217;t be too far from 50% answering yes to such a question.</p>
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		<title>By: Crystal</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/05/huckmentum/comment-page-1/#comment-223617</link>
		<dc:creator>Crystal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jan 2008 02:10:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/05/huckmentum/#comment-223617</guid>
		<description>Kucinich is a little too radical, even for me (and I&#039;m pretty liberal). Plus he has no real chance of winning, and while Edwards came in second to Obama in Iowa we can&#039;t write him off yet. A lot of the people I know in my area are for Edwards, btw. 

I find it interesting that the two current front-runners, Huckabee and Obama, as well as John Edwards, are from fairly modest backgrounds. No silver spoons (or feet) in mouths here. IMO this is part of their appeal. People want someone who they think is &quot;one of them&quot; and self-made rather than a scion of a corporate or political dynasty.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Kucinich is a little too radical, even for me (and I&#8217;m pretty liberal). Plus he has no real chance of winning, and while Edwards came in second to Obama in Iowa we can&#8217;t write him off yet. A lot of the people I know in my area are for Edwards, btw.</p>

	<p>I find it interesting that the two current front-runners, Huckabee and Obama, as well as John Edwards, are from fairly modest backgrounds. No silver spoons (or feet) in mouths here. <span class="caps">IMO</span> this is part of their appeal. People want someone who they think is &#8220;one of them&#8221; and self-made rather than a scion of a corporate or political dynasty.</p>
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