Comments on: The impact of political philosophers http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/10/the-impact-of-political-philosophers/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sun, 22 Nov 2009 09:24:48 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: engels http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/10/the-impact-of-political-philosophers/comment-page-2/#comment-224498 engels Sun, 13 Jan 2008 20:55:46 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/10/the-impact-of-political-philosophers/#comment-224498 No, it was primarily a snarky response to Stephen's penultimate sentence. No, it was primarily a snarky response to Stephen’s penultimate sentence.

]]> By: aaron_m http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/10/the-impact-of-political-philosophers/comment-page-2/#comment-224493 aaron_m Sun, 13 Jan 2008 20:24:36 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/10/the-impact-of-political-philosophers/#comment-224493 The right kind of people for this discussion club. I took #53 to have a 'get lost' vibe to it, but maybe I am still not getting it. The right kind of people for this discussion club. I took #53 to have a ‘get lost’ vibe to it, but maybe I am still not getting it.

]]> By: engels http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/10/the-impact-of-political-philosophers/comment-page-2/#comment-224490 engels Sun, 13 Jan 2008 19:42:26 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/10/the-impact-of-political-philosophers/#comment-224490 Membership of what? Membership of what?

]]> By: aaron_m http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/10/the-impact-of-political-philosophers/comment-page-2/#comment-224489 aaron_m Sun, 13 Jan 2008 19:18:05 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/10/the-impact-of-political-philosophers/#comment-224489 "I am quite certain that any discussion of these matters isn’t helped by people who are incapable of detecting humour or irony." Oh quite so, quite so! Still I think we can all agree that it would be a sad state of affairs should we let Engels' ideas on humour, irony, and what ought to be detected to act as our test of membership. “I am quite certain that any discussion of these matters isn’t helped by people who are incapable of detecting humour or irony.”

Oh quite so, quite so!

Still I think we can all agree that it would be a sad state of affairs should we let Engels’ ideas on humour, irony, and what ought to be detected to act as our test of membership.

]]> By: engels http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/10/the-impact-of-political-philosophers/comment-page-2/#comment-224482 engels Sun, 13 Jan 2008 17:02:03 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/10/the-impact-of-political-philosophers/#comment-224482 Er #45 that would be... Er #45 that would be…

]]> By: engels http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/10/the-impact-of-political-philosophers/comment-page-2/#comment-224481 engels Sun, 13 Jan 2008 17:01:25 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/10/the-impact-of-political-philosophers/#comment-224481 I am quite certain that any discussion of these matters isn't helped by people who are incapable of detecting humour or irony. :) Since apparently many people are not: #154 was intended as a cheap swipe at <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytic_Marxism" rel="nofollow">these guys</a>, not a serious prediction about the future course of Chinese history. I am quite certain that any discussion of these matters isn’t helped by people who are incapable of detecting humour or irony. :) Since apparently many people are not: #154 was intended as a cheap swipe at these guys, not a serious prediction about the future course of Chinese history.

]]> By: Stephen http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/10/the-impact-of-political-philosophers/comment-page-2/#comment-224475 Stephen Sun, 13 Jan 2008 16:16:57 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/10/the-impact-of-political-philosophers/#comment-224475 I'm sure it's reasonable to suggest that 150 years hence much of the most influential writing in political philosophy will be in Chinese, but I'm not certain it's reasonable to claim that "all" will be (I would hazard a guess that there will be important writing in Hindi, Spanish and Portuguese, as well as in Arabic, as martin james suggests). More importantly, however, I am amazed at the idea that we can predict that Chinese writing will fit a "prevailing anti-individualist conceptual framework" for two reasons. First, it is unclear to me that most *contemporary* writing in Chinese political thought is anti-individualist. There are important "liberal" voices in Chinese academia (sure, liberalism with a Chinese face, but that's not so strange). Furthermore, the Chinese "new left", which is in some sense collectivist, often seems to view itself as out-of-step with current trends in government policy. This relates to my second concern: China is undergoing extreme, and under-reported, political, economic and social changes. The introduction of democratic voting procedures in rural areas, for example, is a fascinating experiment, and it is unclear that these elections are any less "democratic" than local elections in India (the obvious contrast case here). How these changes will affect China's development in the future seems to me to be impossible to predict. I'm not certain how any of this fits into claims about the causal relationships between political philosophy and political action. However, I am quite certain that any discussion of these matters isn't helped by sweeping essentialist generalisations. Perhaps some political philosophers at some points in time have influence over some events, whereas others don't! I’m sure it’s reasonable to suggest that 150 years hence much of the most influential writing in political philosophy will be in Chinese, but I’m not certain it’s reasonable to claim that “all” will be (I would hazard a guess that there will be important writing in Hindi, Spanish and Portuguese, as well as in Arabic, as martin james suggests).

More importantly, however, I am amazed at the idea that we can predict that Chinese writing will fit a “prevailing anti-individualist conceptual framework” for two reasons. First, it is unclear to me that most contemporary writing in Chinese political thought is anti-individualist. There are important “liberal” voices in Chinese academia (sure, liberalism with a Chinese face, but that’s not so strange). Furthermore, the Chinese “new left”, which is in some sense collectivist, often seems to view itself as out-of-step with current trends in government policy. This relates to my second concern: China is undergoing extreme, and under-reported, political, economic and social changes. The introduction of democratic voting procedures in rural areas, for example, is a fascinating experiment, and it is unclear that these elections are any less “democratic” than local elections in India (the obvious contrast case here). How these changes will affect China’s development in the future seems to me to be impossible to predict.

I’m not certain how any of this fits into claims about the causal relationships between political philosophy and political action. However, I am quite certain that any discussion of these matters isn’t helped by sweeping essentialist generalisations. Perhaps some political philosophers at some points in time have influence over some events, whereas others don’t!

]]> By: aaron_m http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/10/the-impact-of-political-philosophers/comment-page-2/#comment-224465 aaron_m Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:05:33 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/10/the-impact-of-political-philosophers/#comment-224465 "I hope that by 2158 the Chinese people will have achieved freedom and equality. Maybe the British people will have done so as well. If they do though I am doubtful that it will be thanks to the efforts of Philippe Van Parijs…" Aha I see, but a pretty short time frame for evolution to get rid of the said gene. By the way who said that Philippe Van Parijs would bring freedom and equality to the Chinese? As to the matter you originally raised, it is about as plausible to think that most Chinese political philosophers will not know who Mill was or said as it is to think they will not know who Marx was. “I hope that by 2158 the Chinese people will have achieved freedom and equality. Maybe the British people will have done so as well. If they do though I am doubtful that it will be thanks to the efforts of Philippe Van Parijs…”

Aha I see, but a pretty short time frame for evolution to get rid of the said gene.

By the way who said that Philippe Van Parijs would bring freedom and equality to the Chinese?

As to the matter you originally raised, it is about as plausible to think that most Chinese political philosophers will not know who Mill was or said as it is to think they will not know who Marx was.

]]> By: engels http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/10/the-impact-of-political-philosophers/comment-page-1/#comment-224433 engels Sat, 12 Jan 2008 20:00:58 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/10/the-impact-of-political-philosophers/#comment-224433 Aaron, I hope that by 2158 the Chinese people will have achieved freedom and equality. Maybe the British people will have done so as well. If they do though I am doubtful that it will be thanks to the efforts of Philippe Van Parijs... Aaron, I hope that by 2158 the Chinese people will have achieved freedom and equality. Maybe the British people will have done so as well. If they do though I am doubtful that it will be thanks to the efforts of Philippe Van Parijs…

]]> By: John Emerson http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/10/the-impact-of-political-philosophers/comment-page-1/#comment-224432 John Emerson Sat, 12 Jan 2008 19:41:57 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/10/the-impact-of-political-philosophers/#comment-224432 This is an enormous question and I don't want to take sides, but in Taiwan in 1983 I was amazed at how illiberal well-educated Chinese were, even the dissidents (Taiwan Independence people). In general principle, they just matter-of-factly accepted a authoritarianism. This is an enormous question and I don’t want to take sides, but in Taiwan in 1983 I was amazed at how illiberal well-educated Chinese were, even the dissidents (Taiwan Independence people). In general principle, they just matter-of-factly accepted a authoritarianism.

]]> By: aaron_m http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/10/the-impact-of-political-philosophers/comment-page-1/#comment-224401 aaron_m Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:06:46 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/10/the-impact-of-political-philosophers/#comment-224401 "but a small group of ‘rational Millians’ will labour to make his ideas intelligible within the prevailing anti-individualist conceptual framework, but will render them unrecognisable to his followers in the process. In the end, they will give up on the whole project" Engels, do the Chinese have some genetic feature that makes them not want freedom and equality? “but a small group of ‘rational Millians’ will labour to make his ideas intelligible within the prevailing anti-individualist conceptual framework, but will render them unrecognisable to his followers in the process. In the end, they will give up on the whole project”

Engels, do the Chinese have some genetic feature that makes them not want freedom and equality?

]]> By: ashok http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/10/the-impact-of-political-philosophers/comment-page-1/#comment-224373 ashok Sat, 12 Jan 2008 02:04:11 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/10/the-impact-of-political-philosophers/#comment-224373 Is there an argument to be made for political philosophy, at its best, purposely being useless? Is there an argument to be made for political philosophy, at its best, purposely being useless?

]]> By: Martin James http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/10/the-impact-of-political-philosophers/comment-page-1/#comment-224352 Martin James Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:06:59 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/10/the-impact-of-political-philosophers/#comment-224352 Engels, What's the Chinese character for Allah? Engels,

What’s the Chinese character for Allah?

]]> By: engels http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/10/the-impact-of-political-philosophers/comment-page-1/#comment-224333 engels Fri, 11 Jan 2008 22:23:20 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/10/the-impact-of-political-philosophers/#comment-224333 In 150 years time all serious political philosophy will be written in Chinese. Philosophy written in other languages or reflecting political values other than those of the world hegemon will be relegated to humanities departments, considered to be too lacking in intellectual seriousness to be worth the time of professionals. Cohen and Van Parijs will be forgotten. Mill will be largely ignored but a small group of 'rational Millians' will labour to make his ideas intelligible within the prevailing anti-individualist conceptual framework, but will render them unrecognisable to his followers in the process. In the end, they will give up on the whole project, devoting themselves instead to ever more recondite 'liberal' critiques of Mao, and piecemeal proposals for rendering Chinese socialism more 'humane'. In 150 years time all serious political philosophy will be written in Chinese. Philosophy written in other languages or reflecting political values other than those of the world hegemon will be relegated to humanities departments, considered to be too lacking in intellectual seriousness to be worth the time of professionals. Cohen and Van Parijs will be forgotten. Mill will be largely ignored but a small group of ‘rational Millians’ will labour to make his ideas intelligible within the prevailing anti-individualist conceptual framework, but will render them unrecognisable to his followers in the process. In the end, they will give up on the whole project, devoting themselves instead to ever more recondite ‘liberal’ critiques of Mao, and piecemeal proposals for rendering Chinese socialism more ‘humane’.

]]> By: Josh R. http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/10/the-impact-of-political-philosophers/comment-page-1/#comment-224322 Josh R. Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:01:27 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/10/the-impact-of-political-philosophers/#comment-224322 Jacob says: "I think nationalism and democracy have been two of the most powerful ideas over the past 2.5 centuries, and have had force as ideas, but that ideational force doesn’t derive from any Great Books." What about the pamphleteering of Thomas Paine, in particular Common Sense? Or, I guess, one could also bring in the Federalist Papers. Or would those be insufficiently philosophical, with the former dealing with the specific fact of British rule and the latter with the specific pros/cons of a specific type of constitution, to count in this discussion? Jacob says:

“I think nationalism and democracy have been two of the most powerful ideas over the past 2.5 centuries, and have had force as ideas, but that ideational force doesn’t derive from any Great Books.”

What about the pamphleteering of Thomas Paine, in particular Common Sense? Or, I guess, one could also bring in the Federalist Papers. Or would those be insufficiently philosophical, with the former dealing with the specific fact of British rule and the latter with the specific pros/cons of a specific type of constitution, to count in this discussion?

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