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	<title>Comments on: Opt-Out Organ Donation in the U.K.?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/14/opt-out-organ-donation-in-the-uk/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/14/opt-out-organ-donation-in-the-uk/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 09:49:20 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Crooked Timber &#187; &#187; Abstraction and the Details</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/14/opt-out-organ-donation-in-the-uk/comment-page-1/#comment-225212</link>
		<dc:creator>Crooked Timber &#187; &#187; Abstraction and the Details</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:54:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/14/opt-out-organ-donation-in-the-uk/#comment-225212</guid>
		<description>[...] and Tom Slee follow up&#8212;and generalize from&#8212;my post the other day about the details of proposals for presumed-consent organ donation in Britain. Here&#8217;s Nicholas: But for a long time I&#8217;ve observed the poor functionality [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] and Tom Slee follow up&#8212;and generalize from&#8212;my post the other day about the details of proposals for presumed-consent organ donation in Britain. Here&#8217;s Nicholas: But for a long time I&#8217;ve observed the poor functionality [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Patricia</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/14/opt-out-organ-donation-in-the-uk/comment-page-1/#comment-224934</link>
		<dc:creator>Patricia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2008 22:21:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/14/opt-out-organ-donation-in-the-uk/#comment-224934</guid>
		<description>Hello Mr. Healy,

NIce and interesting post. I am working on this matter and I would be pleased if you could tell me any data source about organ donor per country in the internet. Thank you very much.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Hello Mr. Healy,</p>

	<p>NIce and interesting post. I am working on this matter and I would be pleased if you could tell me any data source about organ donor per country in the internet. Thank you very much.</p>
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		<title>By: Mikhail</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/14/opt-out-organ-donation-in-the-uk/comment-page-1/#comment-224788</link>
		<dc:creator>Mikhail</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 01:02:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/14/opt-out-organ-donation-in-the-uk/#comment-224788</guid>
		<description>Great post and an important issue. 

However, I&#039;m afraid of how it&#039;ll actually be executed if approved... 

The problem is - UK does not exactly have a good record when it comes to dealing with sensitive data. Either storing it or using it. :) Just look at all the recent cock ups with DVLA, Home Office and NHS losing anywhere from tens to hundreds of thousands of records. Or the Home Office having illegal immigrants working security! (You&#039;d think they&#039;d be able to check that...)

So, what if the presumed consent approach is instituted but misused? Shouldn&#039;t that result in criminal proceedings against medical teams for using organs when they shouldn&#039;t have? Which of course would not happen since apparently no amount of misdoing can lead to prosecution in the UK. :) Recent examples would be the cash for honours case and the Northern Rock bank debacle - the managements must so be sued over that, but they said they are sorry and just got a slap on the wrist. But I&#039;m digressing. The current system of informed consent works to protect both the dead person and the medical staff - you have to definitely establish the consent. If you don&#039;t have to do that anymore, that opens up room for mistakes. And who is going to deal/pay for that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Great post and an important issue.</p>

	<p>However, I&#8217;m afraid of how it&#8217;ll actually be executed if approved&#8230;</p>

	<p>The problem is &#8211; UK does not exactly have a good record when it comes to dealing with sensitive data. Either storing it or using it. :) Just look at all the recent cock ups with <span class="caps">DVLA</span>, Home Office and <span class="caps">NHS</span> losing anywhere from tens to hundreds of thousands of records. Or the Home Office having illegal immigrants working security! (You&#8217;d think they&#8217;d be able to check that&#8230;)</p>

	<p>So, what if the presumed consent approach is instituted but misused? Shouldn&#8217;t that result in criminal proceedings against medical teams for using organs when they shouldn&#8217;t have? Which of course would not happen since apparently no amount of misdoing can lead to prosecution in the UK. :) Recent examples would be the cash for honours case and the Northern Rock bank debacle &#8211; the managements must so be sued over that, but they said they are sorry and just got a slap on the wrist. But I&#8217;m digressing. The current system of informed consent works to protect both the dead person and the medical staff &#8211; you have to definitely establish the consent. If you don&#8217;t have to do that anymore, that opens up room for mistakes. And who is going to deal/pay for that?</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Goldberg</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/14/opt-out-organ-donation-in-the-uk/comment-page-1/#comment-224739</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Goldberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 21:07:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/14/opt-out-organ-donation-in-the-uk/#comment-224739</guid>
		<description>Great post, Kieran.

My response:

http://www.medhumanities.org/2008/01/on-presumed-con.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Great post, Kieran.</p>

	<p>My response:</p>

	<p><a href="http://www.medhumanities.org/2008/01/on-presumed-con.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.medhumanities.org/2008/01/on-presumed-con.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Ben Hippen</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/14/opt-out-organ-donation-in-the-uk/comment-page-1/#comment-224698</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Hippen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 12:16:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/14/opt-out-organ-donation-in-the-uk/#comment-224698</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Kieran, for the post.

Tim #12, and other interested parties:

I&#039;ve written an essay, forthcoming from the Cato Institute, on the Iranian system of organ procurement.  I&#039;ll also be speaking at Cato on Feb 21, alongside a critic or two, on the same subject.

The short version: Iran has permitted the sale of kidneys between nationals (only) from living vendors (rather than &#039;donors&#039;) since 1987, and the waiting list for kidneys was eliminated in 1997.  Long-term recipient outcomes (i.e. 10+ years) for recipients of purchased kidneys is comparable to outcomes from recipients of conventionally donated kidneys, and outcomes for both are favorably comparable to recipient outcomes in the U.S.  This is of interest, because reports of outcomes for both vendors and recipients who participate in grey-market, cross-border organ trafficking are horrendous.

One salient problem with the Iranian system is that long-term outcomes for vendors are simply not known, and vendors tend to disproportionately come from the impoverished classes.  The majority of organ vendors fall below the Iranian poverty line of &lt; U.S. $5 a month.

The long version is better. I&#039;d be pleased to provide a copy (once published) offline to anyone interested.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thanks, Kieran, for the post.</p>

	<p>Tim #12, and other interested parties:</p>

	<p>I&#8217;ve written an essay, forthcoming from the Cato Institute, on the Iranian system of organ procurement.  I&#8217;ll also be speaking at Cato on Feb 21, alongside a critic or two, on the same subject.</p>

	<p>The short version: Iran has permitted the sale of kidneys between nationals (only) from living vendors (rather than &#8216;donors&#8217;) since 1987, and the waiting list for kidneys was eliminated in 1997.  Long-term recipient outcomes (i.e. 10+ years) for recipients of purchased kidneys is comparable to outcomes from recipients of conventionally donated kidneys, and outcomes for both are favorably comparable to recipient outcomes in the U.S.  This is of interest, because reports of outcomes for both vendors and recipients who participate in grey-market, cross-border organ trafficking are horrendous.</p>

	<p>One salient problem with the Iranian system is that long-term outcomes for vendors are simply not known, and vendors tend to disproportionately come from the impoverished classes.  The majority of organ vendors fall below the Iranian poverty line of < U.S. $5 a month.</p>

	</p><p>The long version is better. I&#8217;d be pleased to provide a copy (once published) offline to anyone interested.</p>
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		<title>By: nick s</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/14/opt-out-organ-donation-in-the-uk/comment-page-1/#comment-224654</link>
		<dc:creator>nick s</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 22:30:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/14/opt-out-organ-donation-in-the-uk/#comment-224654</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;(The graph hints that the US might be relevant here, but you don’t mention it. So I’m not sure.)&lt;/i&gt;

I suspect it&#039;s because many states now combine the process with one&#039;s application for a driver&#039;s license. (It&#039;s generally indicated on the license whether you&#039;ve consented.)

Having someone at the DMV ask you whether you&#039;d like to be a donor is different from the British practice -- at least, when I did it [mumble] years ago -- of picking up a donor card from a tray at the post office counter. It&#039;s also a non-medical setting, which may prompt a different response rate from a medical setting. That&#039;s to say, when the DMV official asks, you may well think of the consequences of being in a car accident, whereas being asked at the doctor&#039;s surgery might lead you to believe that you&#039;re being sized up as a bag of organs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>(The graph hints that the US might be relevant here, but you don&#8217;t mention it. So I&#8217;m not sure.)</i></p>

	<p>I suspect it&#8217;s because many states now combine the process with one&#8217;s application for a driver&#8217;s license. (It&#8217;s generally indicated on the license whether you&#8217;ve consented.)</p>

	<p>Having someone at the <span class="caps">DMV</span> ask you whether you&#8217;d like to be a donor is different from the British practice&#8212;at least, when I did it [mumble] years ago&#8212;of picking up a donor card from a tray at the post office counter. It&#8217;s also a non-medical setting, which may prompt a different response rate from a medical setting. That&#8217;s to say, when the <span class="caps">DMV</span> official asks, you may well think of the consequences of being in a car accident, whereas being asked at the doctor&#8217;s surgery might lead you to believe that you&#8217;re being sized up as a bag of organs.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Kuzma</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/14/opt-out-organ-donation-in-the-uk/comment-page-1/#comment-224649</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Kuzma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 21:11:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/14/opt-out-organ-donation-in-the-uk/#comment-224649</guid>
		<description>Okay, I just thought of something.  I appreciate your statistical analysis, and maybe you address this in the paper, but is it possible that the effects of consent laws interact nonlinearly with investments in infrastructure?

Specifically, I&#039;m thinking that if you improve logistical capabilities you ensure that a greater number of potential donor organs actually find recipients before they spoil, but changing the consent law makes a great many more organs available for transplant.  If your logistical structure is already operating at near-capacity, increasing the number of available donor organs won&#039;t do much to improve transplant rates, but if a country were in a situation where nearly 100% of donor organs were reaching recipients, increasing the supply of organs would actually have a significant effect, especially if they increase investment in the logistical side of things so it can expand.

So it&#039;s actually an issue of determining where the bottleneck is.  Fact or crap?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Okay, I just thought of something.  I appreciate your statistical analysis, and maybe you address this in the paper, but is it possible that the effects of consent laws interact nonlinearly with investments in infrastructure?</p>

	<p>Specifically, I&#8217;m thinking that if you improve logistical capabilities you ensure that a greater number of potential donor organs actually find recipients before they spoil, but changing the consent law makes a great many more organs available for transplant.  If your logistical structure is already operating at near-capacity, increasing the number of available donor organs won&#8217;t do much to improve transplant rates, but if a country were in a situation where nearly 100% of donor organs were reaching recipients, increasing the supply of organs would actually have a significant effect, especially if they increase investment in the logistical side of things so it can expand.</p>

	<p>So it&#8217;s actually an issue of determining where the bottleneck is.  Fact or crap?</p>
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		<title>By: leederick</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/14/opt-out-organ-donation-in-the-uk/comment-page-1/#comment-224645</link>
		<dc:creator>leederick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 20:58:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/14/opt-out-organ-donation-in-the-uk/#comment-224645</guid>
		<description>Is there a weird semantic thing going on when people talk about an opt-out system of organ donation? Is it really a donation if someone takes something from you without you having expressed an opinion on the topic? I&#039;m not commenting on the merits of the scheme, just the language.

I thought the post was excellent by the way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Is there a weird semantic thing going on when people talk about an opt-out system of organ donation? Is it really a donation if someone takes something from you without you having expressed an opinion on the topic? I&#8217;m not commenting on the merits of the scheme, just the language.</p>

	<p>I thought the post was excellent by the way.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Kuzma</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/14/opt-out-organ-donation-in-the-uk/comment-page-1/#comment-224633</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Kuzma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 18:46:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/14/opt-out-organ-donation-in-the-uk/#comment-224633</guid>
		<description>I would also like to point out that this statement is totally ludicrous:

&lt;i&gt;But some critics say the state should not automatically decide what happens to people’s bodies after they die.&lt;/i&gt;

The decision about whether or not to donate needs to happen fairly prompty or it is rendered irrelevant by natural decay processes, so assuming non-consent is in fact &quot;automatically decid[ing] what happens to people&#039;s bodies after they die.&quot;

The decision to do nothing is still a decision.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I would also like to point out that this statement is totally ludicrous:</p>

	<p><i>But some critics say the state should not automatically decide what happens to people&#8217;s bodies after they die.</i></p>

	<p>The decision about whether or not to donate needs to happen fairly prompty or it is rendered irrelevant by natural decay processes, so assuming non-consent is in fact &#8220;automatically decid[ing] what happens to people&#8217;s bodies after they die.&#8221;</p>

	<p>The decision to do nothing is still a decision.</p>
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		<title>By: Kieran Healy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/14/opt-out-organ-donation-in-the-uk/comment-page-1/#comment-224601</link>
		<dc:creator>Kieran Healy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 15:13:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/14/opt-out-organ-donation-in-the-uk/#comment-224601</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;To what extent is the increase in organ procurement in Italy, a reaction to the donation of Nicholas Green’s organs in 1994?&lt;/i&gt;

I have data on provincial rates of donation in Italy for 1998-2004 and over that period there has been a lot of growth, though it has been unevenly distributed across northern, central and southern regions. The south has pretty low rates and not much growth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>To what extent is the increase in organ procurement in Italy, a reaction to the donation of Nicholas Green&#8217;s organs in 1994?</i></p>

	<p>I have data on provincial rates of donation in Italy for 1998-2004 and over that period there has been a lot of growth, though it has been unevenly distributed across northern, central and southern regions. The south has pretty low rates and not much growth.</p>
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		<title>By: Kieran Healy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/14/opt-out-organ-donation-in-the-uk/comment-page-1/#comment-224599</link>
		<dc:creator>Kieran Healy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 15:09:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/14/opt-out-organ-donation-in-the-uk/#comment-224599</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Kieran, can you tell us how these countries compare on an absolute (per capita) basis? Especially Spain and Italy, whose growth rates could just as well be the result of low donations in the early period as of high amounts of donations now.&lt;/i&gt;

Sure, You can see the time series &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.kieranhealy.org/files/misc/donor-yr-series.png&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;. Informed consent countries are on the top row; presumed consent countries on the bottom. They&#039;re arranged within each row from lowest on average to highest. You can see that Spain has always been at the high end (and growing) while Italy started off near the very bottom and grew rapidly to end up in the middle of the distribution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Kieran, can you tell us how these countries compare on an absolute (per capita) basis? Especially Spain and Italy, whose growth rates could just as well be the result of low donations in the early period as of high amounts of donations now.</i></p>

	<p>Sure, You can see the time series <a href="http://www.kieranhealy.org/files/misc/donor-yr-series.png" rel="nofollow">here</a>. Informed consent countries are on the top row; presumed consent countries on the bottom. They&#8217;re arranged within each row from lowest on average to highest. You can see that Spain has always been at the high end (and growing) while Italy started off near the very bottom and grew rapidly to end up in the middle of the distribution.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/14/opt-out-organ-donation-in-the-uk/comment-page-1/#comment-224594</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 13:55:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/14/opt-out-organ-donation-in-the-uk/#comment-224594</guid>
		<description>To what extent is the increase in organ procurement in Italy, a reaction to the donation of Nicholas Green&#039;s organs in 1994?  The internet seems to think that event alone had a very dramatic effect on Italians&#039; attitudes towards organ donation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>To what extent is the increase in organ procurement in Italy, a reaction to the donation of Nicholas Green&#8217;s organs in 1994?  The internet seems to think that event alone had a very dramatic effect on Italians&#8217; attitudes towards organ donation.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Worstall</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/14/opt-out-organ-donation-in-the-uk/comment-page-1/#comment-224590</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Worstall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:34:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/14/opt-out-organ-donation-in-the-uk/#comment-224590</guid>
		<description>Would be interesting if we actually looked at a country which has solved the kidney shortage entirely. Sure, this doesn&#039;t work with hearts etc, but it does with kidneys.
Iran. No shortage of kidneys and a (highly regulated) market, with State compensation to those who make a live donation.
Worth a thought perhaps?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Would be interesting if we actually looked at a country which has solved the kidney shortage entirely. Sure, this doesn&#8217;t work with hearts etc, but it does with kidneys.<br />
Iran. No shortage of kidneys and a (highly regulated) market, with State compensation to those who make a live donation.<br />
Worth a thought perhaps?</p>
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		<title>By: Ginger Yellow</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/14/opt-out-organ-donation-in-the-uk/comment-page-1/#comment-224586</link>
		<dc:creator>Ginger Yellow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 11:45:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/14/opt-out-organ-donation-in-the-uk/#comment-224586</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve often wondered what the effect would be if you scrapped next of kin consent but didn&#039;t switch to presumed consent. I find it outrageous that my own wishes to donate can be countermanded by my family, even though I don&#039;t expect them to do so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;ve often wondered what the effect would be if you scrapped next of kin consent but didn&#8217;t switch to presumed consent. I find it outrageous that my own wishes to donate can be countermanded by my family, even though I don&#8217;t expect them to do so.</p>
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		<title>By: GreatZamfir</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/14/opt-out-organ-donation-in-the-uk/comment-page-1/#comment-224584</link>
		<dc:creator>GreatZamfir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2008 10:40:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/14/opt-out-organ-donation-in-the-uk/#comment-224584</guid>
		<description>Kieran, can you tell us how these countries compare on an absolute (per capita) basis? Especially Spain and Italy, whose growth rates could just as well be the result of low donations in the early period as of high amounts of donations now.

Also, you graphs suggest that several countries, suc as the Netherlands, Australia and Sweden have seen a serious decline in organ donations. Are there common explanations for this? 

All in all a very interesting piece, thank you</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Kieran, can you tell us how these countries compare on an absolute (per capita) basis? Especially Spain and Italy, whose growth rates could just as well be the result of low donations in the early period as of high amounts of donations now.</p>

	<p>Also, you graphs suggest that several countries, suc as the Netherlands, Australia and Sweden have seen a serious decline in organ donations. Are there common explanations for this?</p>

	<p>All in all a very interesting piece, thank you</p>
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