Comments on: HoS and the WAGs http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/18/hos-and-the-wags/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Mon, 13 Feb 2012 05:00:09 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: shteve http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/18/hos-and-the-wags/comment-page-1/#comment-225020 shteve Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:32:08 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/18/hos-and-the-wags/#comment-225020 Sarkozy is divorced, isn't he? At the time of the Brussels "snub", Bertie was actually an adulterer. Classy. Sarkozy is divorced, isn’t he?

At the time of the Brussels “snub”, Bertie was actually an adulterer. Classy.

]]> By: Dan Simon http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/18/hos-and-the-wags/comment-page-1/#comment-224992 Dan Simon Sun, 20 Jan 2008 16:07:09 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/18/hos-and-the-wags/#comment-224992 <em>Maria thought it was funny that European diplomats were clucking over the vulgar Irish, when now its the sophisticated French who don’t know the “proper” handling of mistresses.</em> This doesn't make any sense. "'Proper' handling of mistresses" according to <em>Indian</em> standards? When would one ever have expected anything other than arrogant indifference from the French regarding foreign prudishness? Maria thought it was funny that European diplomats were clucking over the vulgar Irish, when now its the sophisticated French who don’t know the “proper” handling of mistresses.

This doesn’t make any sense. “’Proper’ handling of mistresses” according to Indian standards? When would one ever have expected anything other than arrogant indifference from the French regarding foreign prudishness?

]]> By: Mike Otsuka http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/18/hos-and-the-wags/comment-page-1/#comment-224978 Mike Otsuka Sun, 20 Jan 2008 09:04:41 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/18/hos-and-the-wags/#comment-224978 Well, you know what they say about 'If you have to explain a joke...' Well, you know what they say about ‘If you have to explain a joke…’

]]> By: Walt http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/18/hos-and-the-wags/comment-page-1/#comment-224957 Walt Sun, 20 Jan 2008 02:37:45 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/18/hos-and-the-wags/#comment-224957 Christ, can't you people recognize a joke when you see one? Maria thought it was funny that European diplomats were clucking over the vulgar Irish, when now its the sophisticated French who don't know the "proper" handling of mistresses. Dan, after your post, I'm beginning to wonder about your sanity. Christ, can’t you people recognize a joke when you see one? Maria thought it was funny that European diplomats were clucking over the vulgar Irish, when now its the sophisticated French who don’t know the “proper” handling of mistresses.

Dan, after your post, I’m beginning to wonder about your sanity.

]]> By: Dan Simon http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/18/hos-and-the-wags/comment-page-1/#comment-224951 Dan Simon Sun, 20 Jan 2008 01:59:39 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/18/hos-and-the-wags/#comment-224951 Perhaps I can make Mike's point a little more directly. If it's a sign of Ireland's "newfound sophistication" that the Irish think nothing of Bertie Ahern showing up at events with a woman not his wife, then why is it a sign of Sarko's "gauche" manners, rather than of the Indians' <em>lack</em> of sophistication, that they don't appreciate <em>his</em> showing up with a woman not his wife? Why is the onus on the Irish people to live up to Bertie Ahern's worldliness in one case, and on Nicolas Sarkozy to live down to the Indians' prudishness in the other? (Caveat: If you answer that this is a rhetorical question, Maria, I <em>will</em> answer it, and I don't think you'll like my answer.) Perhaps I can make Mike’s point a little more directly. If it’s a sign of Ireland’s “newfound sophistication” that the Irish think nothing of Bertie Ahern showing up at events with a woman not his wife, then why is it a sign of Sarko’s “gauche” manners, rather than of the Indians’ lack of sophistication, that they don’t appreciate his showing up with a woman not his wife? Why is the onus on the Irish people to live up to Bertie Ahern’s worldliness in one case, and on Nicolas Sarkozy to live down to the Indians’ prudishness in the other?

(Caveat: If you answer that this is a rhetorical question, Maria, I will answer it, and I don’t think you’ll like my answer.)

]]> By: Jonathan http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/18/hos-and-the-wags/comment-page-1/#comment-224920 Jonathan Sat, 19 Jan 2008 19:40:50 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/18/hos-and-the-wags/#comment-224920 <em>I was quite pleased that no one in Ireland seemed too bothered that our married but separated prime minister Bertie Aherne lived with his mistress/girlfriend/partner and even brought her on foreign trips.</em> No real precedent for that sort of thing, is there? I was quite pleased that no one in Ireland seemed too bothered that our married but separated prime minister Bertie Aherne lived with his mistress/girlfriend/partner and even brought her on foreign trips.

No real precedent for that sort of thing, is there?

]]> By: Dave http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/18/hos-and-the-wags/comment-page-1/#comment-224916 Dave Sat, 19 Jan 2008 18:46:10 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/18/hos-and-the-wags/#comment-224916 Surely a 'mistress' is a sexual partner that a man maintains secretly? Any liaison open enough to involve official trips abroad must fall outside that characterisation... In which case the 'Brussels diplomats' are just being snotty (or standing up, misogynistically, for the tradition of keeping mistresses out of sight - the context is unclear). Surely a ‘mistress’ is a sexual partner that a man maintains secretly? Any liaison open enough to involve official trips abroad must fall outside that characterisation… In which case the ‘Brussels diplomats’ are just being snotty (or standing up, misogynistically, for the tradition of keeping mistresses out of sight – the context is unclear).

]]> By: Rob http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/18/hos-and-the-wags/comment-page-1/#comment-224908 Rob Sat, 19 Jan 2008 15:33:35 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/18/hos-and-the-wags/#comment-224908 Well, it's not so simple, but then it's not so complicated either. Given that it may be difficult to marry your same gender partner, it's understandable that the default should be to treat them like as though they're a spouse. Assuming the relationship has all the kinds of long-term commitments that a marriage ideally ought to, you should treat it like that kind of long-term relationship. However, it is usually possible to marry your different gender partner, unless one of you is already married to someone else, so it is more reasonable to refuse to accommodate such relations than the homophobia which characterises a refusal to accommodate same gender partners is. That's not to say it is reasonable tout court, of course, merely more reasonable. As for mistresses, you might even think that, given the way that mistress could be thought of as functioning as status symbols for men and hypocrisy about sexual relations their status implies, that refusing to accommodate mistresses was pretty progressive. Well, it’s not so simple, but then it’s not so complicated either. Given that it may be difficult to marry your same gender partner, it’s understandable that the default should be to treat them like as though they’re a spouse. Assuming the relationship has all the kinds of long-term commitments that a marriage ideally ought to, you should treat it like that kind of long-term relationship. However, it is usually possible to marry your different gender partner, unless one of you is already married to someone else, so it is more reasonable to refuse to accommodate such relations than the homophobia which characterises a refusal to accommodate same gender partners is. That’s not to say it is reasonable tout court, of course, merely more reasonable. As for mistresses, you might even think that, given the way that mistress could be thought of as functioning as status symbols for men and hypocrisy about sexual relations their status implies, that refusing to accommodate mistresses was pretty progressive.

]]> By: Righteous Bubba http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/18/hos-and-the-wags/comment-page-1/#comment-224906 Righteous Bubba Sat, 19 Jan 2008 15:21:30 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/18/hos-and-the-wags/#comment-224906 <i>My idea of our newfound sophistication was punctured by a couple of Brussels diplomats. The French were particularly annoyed as they felt everyone should understand the mistress’s carefully delineated position.</i> I don't understand how these two sentences are related. My idea of our newfound sophistication was punctured by a couple of Brussels diplomats. The French were particularly annoyed as they felt everyone should understand the mistress’s carefully delineated position.

I don’t understand how these two sentences are related.

]]> By: Mikhail http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/18/hos-and-the-wags/comment-page-1/#comment-224905 Mikhail Sat, 19 Jan 2008 15:15:51 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/18/hos-and-the-wags/#comment-224905 Isn't this whole issue premature? It'd be worth discussing if Bruni did indeed accompany Sarcozy to India. And then a much better question would be whether she is entitled to be at such functions and whether she might be an "information leak" afterwards. But before anything happened this somewhat reminds me the Irish media example ... :) Isn’t this whole issue premature? It’d be worth discussing if Bruni did indeed accompany Sarcozy to India. And then a much better question would be whether she is entitled to be at such functions and whether she might be an “information leak” afterwards. But before anything happened this somewhat reminds me the Irish media example … :)

]]> By: greatzamfir http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/18/hos-and-the-wags/comment-page-1/#comment-224903 greatzamfir Sat, 19 Jan 2008 14:43:31 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/18/hos-and-the-wags/#comment-224903 mike otsuka, I think your question could very well be answered differently. If you know your host will be offended, be it by bringing an unmarried partner or a same-sex partner, and if you know they would be equally offended if someone else did this ( so it is not a personal thing), than yo are impolite by bringing the partner. If you visit someone, it is their norms that count, more than yours. Of course, it is also impolite for the host to object to you bringing your partner, and certainly so if the arrangement is considered acceptable in the visitor's culture. But is the visitor that has to make the most amends. But I,m not sure if Aherne's diners in Brussels really count as visiting. I guess you can argue that EU head of state meetings are meetings between equals, with the location of secondary importance. If we add to this that Aherne's situation is quite common in most European countries, if not among diplomats than probably among their children, I think it is reasonable to say that Aherne bringing his partner to Brussels is more polite than Sarkozy bringing his partner to India. mike otsuka, I think your question could very well be answered differently. If you know your host will be offended, be it by bringing an unmarried partner or a same-sex partner, and if you know they would be equally offended if someone else did this ( so it is not a personal thing), than yo are impolite by bringing the partner. If you visit someone, it is their norms that count, more than yours.

Of course, it is also impolite for the host to object to you bringing your partner, and certainly so if the arrangement is considered acceptable in the visitor’s culture. But is the visitor that has to make the most amends.

But I,m not sure if Aherne’s diners in Brussels really count as visiting. I guess you can argue that EU head of state meetings are meetings between equals, with the location of secondary importance. If we add to this that Aherne’s situation is quite common in most European countries, if not among diplomats than probably among their children, I think it is reasonable to say that Aherne bringing his partner to Brussels is more polite than Sarkozy bringing his partner to India.

]]> By: Mike Otsuka http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/18/hos-and-the-wags/comment-page-1/#comment-224899 Mike Otsuka Sat, 19 Jan 2008 14:07:35 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/18/hos-and-the-wags/#comment-224899 Martin Wisse -- It's not so simple, given that in most places same-gender partners can't marry, and the reason they can't marry is that the societies in question regard such partnerships as unworthy of the same sort of recognition. So it's not a problem if a legally married same-gender couple attends a state banquet in, say, the Netherlands. But it would cause problems in, say, India or Saudi Arabia. Martin Wisse—It’s not so simple, given that in most places same-gender partners can’t marry, and the reason they can’t marry is that the societies in question regard such partnerships as unworthy of the same sort of recognition. So it’s not a problem if a legally married same-gender couple attends a state banquet in, say, the Netherlands. But it would cause problems in, say, India or Saudi Arabia.

]]> By: Z http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/18/hos-and-the-wags/comment-page-1/#comment-224895 Z Sat, 19 Jan 2008 11:49:14 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/18/hos-and-the-wags/#comment-224895 <i>Sarkozy and Bruni had quietly wed.</i> This is extremely unlikely. Weddings in France are registered at the townhall where they are celebrated but also at the townhall where the spouses were born and the registers are public. So it is extremely easy for anyone to know for sure if Carla Bruni and/or Nicolas Sarkozy are married/divorced. Sarkozy and Bruni had quietly wed.

This is extremely unlikely. Weddings in France are registered at the townhall where they are celebrated but also at the townhall where the spouses were born and the registers are public. So it is extremely easy for anyone to know for sure if Carla Bruni and/or Nicolas Sarkozy are married/divorced.

]]> By: Martin Wisse http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/18/hos-and-the-wags/comment-page-1/#comment-224889 Martin Wisse Sat, 19 Jan 2008 10:20:54 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/18/hos-and-the-wags/#comment-224889 #5 is silly. The difference is between official and unoffical partners of head of states; as long as the same gender partner is married to the visiting dignitary, no problem. #5 is silly. The difference is between official and unoffical partners of head of states; as long as the same gender partner is married to the visiting dignitary, no problem.

]]> By: Mike Otsuka http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/18/hos-and-the-wags/comment-page-1/#comment-224886 Mike Otsuka Sat, 19 Jan 2008 08:23:50 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/01/18/hos-and-the-wags/#comment-224886 Okay. 'No.' But that leaves the non-rhetorical question just before the rhetorical one unanswered. (It's fine to ignore this wet blanket, however.) Okay. ‘No.’ But that leaves the non-rhetorical question just before the rhetorical one unanswered. (It’s fine to ignore this wet blanket, however.)

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