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	<title>Comments on: Liberal Senators</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/01/liberal-senators/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: PoliBlog &#8482;: A Rough Draft of my Thoughts &#187; The Super-Duper (Perhaps Even Wuper!) Toast-o-Meter</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/01/liberal-senators/comment-page-1/#comment-226929</link>
		<dc:creator>PoliBlog &#8482;: A Rough Draft of my Thoughts &#187; The Super-Duper (Perhaps Even Wuper!) Toast-o-Meter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Feb 2008 02:34:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/01/liberal-senators/#comment-226929</guid>
		<description>[...] Timber: Liberal Senators (McCain is discussed in the comments [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] Timber: Liberal Senators (McCain is discussed in the comments [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Righteous Bubba</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/01/liberal-senators/comment-page-1/#comment-226816</link>
		<dc:creator>Righteous Bubba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2008 02:36:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/01/liberal-senators/#comment-226816</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;All she did was ask a simple question on her blog, something that folks around here do all the time.&lt;/i&gt;

When you get paid to beg at what was once a great magazine it somehow seems different.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>All she did was ask a simple question on her blog, something that folks around here do all the time.</i></p>

	<p>When you get paid to beg at what was once a great magazine it somehow seems different.</p>
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		<title>By: HP</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/01/liberal-senators/comment-page-1/#comment-226811</link>
		<dc:creator>HP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2008 01:04:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/01/liberal-senators/#comment-226811</guid>
		<description>One of these days I&#039;m going to finish my &lt;i&gt;four&lt;/i&gt;-axis political map. This will allow me to show Libertarians exactly where they lie within the interior of a tesseract. 

Then, all I have to do is fold up the tesseract, place it in my pocket, and the Libertarian will vanish into the aether. Problem solved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>One of these days I&#8217;m going to finish my <i>four</i>-axis political map. This will allow me to show Libertarians exactly where they lie within the interior of a tesseract.</p>

	<p>Then, all I have to do is fold up the tesseract, place it in my pocket, and the Libertarian will vanish into the aether. Problem solved.</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/01/liberal-senators/comment-page-1/#comment-226728</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Feb 2008 05:42:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/01/liberal-senators/#comment-226728</guid>
		<description>One point that hasn&#039;t been raised so far is that party discipline has tightened a lot, starting with the Republicans who purged most of the old liberal wing and tamed the rest. The Democrats followed, once the last of the old Southern Democrats like Zell Miller departed.

The result is that, while Republicans like Olympia Snowe and Susan Collins are probably more liberal in their personal views than quite a few Democrats, and are allowed to break ranks on second-order issues that will play well in Maine, they stick to the party line when it matters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>One point that hasn&#8217;t been raised so far is that party discipline has tightened a lot, starting with the Republicans who purged most of the old liberal wing and tamed the rest. The Democrats followed, once the last of the old Southern Democrats like Zell Miller departed.</p>

	<p>The result is that, while Republicans like Olympia Snowe and Susan Collins are probably more liberal in their personal views than quite a few Democrats, and are allowed to break ranks on second-order issues that will play well in Maine, they stick to the party line when it matters.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/01/liberal-senators/comment-page-1/#comment-226694</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2008 22:57:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/01/liberal-senators/#comment-226694</guid>
		<description>To give you a hint, Megan McArdle&#039;s reaction to the  Lancet II article estimating deaths in Iraq was that her &#039;gut&#039; told her it was wrong.  This would be the trained gut of a Chicago MBA, please not, not the trained gut of somebody with knowledge of war zones.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>To give you a hint, Megan McArdle&#8217;s reaction to the  Lancet II article estimating deaths in Iraq was that her &#8216;gut&#8217; told her it was wrong.  This would be the trained gut of a Chicago <span class="caps">MBA</span>, please not, not the trained gut of somebody with knowledge of war zones.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/01/liberal-senators/comment-page-1/#comment-226693</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2008 22:55:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/01/liberal-senators/#comment-226693</guid>
		<description>&quot;Don’t be a putz. All she did was ask a simple question on her blog, something that folks around here do all the time. It’s not like she asked anyone to do her research for her. Don’t be a putz.&quot;
Posted by notsneaky 

Megan has a history.  It wasn&#039;t the case that *some blogger* asked a question, with a possible underlying assertion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Don&#8217;t be a putz. All she did was ask a simple question on her blog, something that folks around here do all the time. It&#8217;s not like she asked anyone to do her research for her. Don&#8217;t be a putz.&#8221;<br />
Posted by notsneaky</p>

	<p>Megan has a history.  It wasn&#8217;t the case that <strong>some blogger</strong> asked a question, with a possible underlying assertion.</p>
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		<title>By: notsneaky</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/01/liberal-senators/comment-page-1/#comment-226658</link>
		<dc:creator>notsneaky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2008 16:47:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/01/liberal-senators/#comment-226658</guid>
		<description>&quot;Megan McArdle wants to know something

And God forbid she should do some actual work to find out.

Just what our discourse was crying out for: a libertarian Jonah Goldberg.&quot;

Don&#039;t be a putz. All she did was ask a simple question on her blog, something that folks around here do all the time. It&#039;s not like she asked anyone to do her research for her. Don&#039;t be a putz.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Megan McArdle wants to know something</p>

	<p>And God forbid she should do some actual work to find out.</p>

	<p>Just what our discourse was crying out for: a libertarian Jonah Goldberg.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Don&#8217;t be a putz. All she did was ask a simple question on her blog, something that folks around here do all the time. It&#8217;s not like she asked anyone to do her research for her. Don&#8217;t be a putz.</p>
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		<title>By: yoyo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/01/liberal-senators/comment-page-1/#comment-226635</link>
		<dc:creator>yoyo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2008 01:01:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/01/liberal-senators/#comment-226635</guid>
		<description>It really doesn&#039;t make sense to me that since the 70s/80s or so the republicans have still been more socially liberal. Unless i&#039;m reading that chart wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It really doesn&#8217;t make sense to me that since the 70s/80s or so the republicans have still been more socially liberal. Unless i&#8217;m reading that chart wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Weiner</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/01/liberal-senators/comment-page-1/#comment-226634</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Weiner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 23:29:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/01/liberal-senators/#comment-226634</guid>
		<description>Thanks to everyone for actually reading that comment! Let me say again that I&#039;m not an expert. 

greatzamfir: &lt;i&gt;isn’t there a problem in this analysis as result of the winner-takes-all system in elections?&lt;/i&gt;

Well, the analysis is just meant to capture congressional voting records, not the records of individual members. But you may be right that, even if individual voters are spread along two dimensions, the winner-take-all system would compress their representatives onto one dimension. I&#039;d wonder why it compresses one dimension but not both, OTOH. Is this the point of talking about the party system -- that it forces local disagreement onto one axis? 

John Emerson: &lt;i&gt;Matt’s “in the three-party era from the 30s to the 80s” is quite misleading; except in 1948 and 1968, the Dixiecrats were always Democrats&lt;/i&gt;

It&#039;s Poole&#039;s phrase, more or less, but it&#039;s not meant to suggest that there were three &lt;i&gt;de jure&lt;/i&gt; parties; rather than there were three &lt;i&gt;de facto&lt;/i&gt; parties. Check out the picture of the &lt;a href=&quot;http://voteview.ucsd.edu/Optimal_Classification.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;95th House&lt;/a&gt; on their site; the southern and non-southern Democrats are pretty well separated, although there was some overlap. (They have the program display any Democrat from the Confederacy +Kentucky/Oklahoma as an S rather than a D.)

Barry, what you describe is exactly how I remember it too. But I think Lemuel is right that a real liberal-conservative ranking (which this isn&#039;t exactly supposed to be) might weight some votes more than others. Then you&#039;re into subjective territory, though. 

Others have also pointed out that there&#039;s a lot more than the final vote that goes into liberalism and conservatism. There&#039;s amendments and negotiations in Congress, and there&#039;s the rhetorical status you take outside of Congress. Feinstein often seems to be illiberal on the procedural stuff, and Lieberman loves to undercut the liberal position on talk shows. Still, this is interesting at measuring what it does measure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thanks to everyone for actually reading that comment! Let me say again that I&#8217;m not an expert.</p>

	<p>greatzamfir: <i>isn&#8217;t there a problem in this analysis as result of the winner-takes-all system in elections?</i></p>

	<p>Well, the analysis is just meant to capture congressional voting records, not the records of individual members. But you may be right that, even if individual voters are spread along two dimensions, the winner-take-all system would compress their representatives onto one dimension. I&#8217;d wonder why it compresses one dimension but not both, <span class="caps">OTOH</span>. Is this the point of talking about the party system&#8212;that it forces local disagreement onto one axis?</p>

	<p>John Emerson: <i>Matt&#8217;s &#8220;in the three-party era from the 30s to the 80s&#8221; is quite misleading; except in 1948 and 1968, the Dixiecrats were always Democrats</i></p>

	<p>It&#8217;s Poole&#8217;s phrase, more or less, but it&#8217;s not meant to suggest that there were three <i>de jure</i> parties; rather than there were three <i>de facto</i> parties. Check out the picture of the <a href="http://voteview.ucsd.edu/Optimal_Classification.htm" rel="nofollow">95th House</a> on their site; the southern and non-southern Democrats are pretty well separated, although there was some overlap. (They have the program display any Democrat from the Confederacy +Kentucky/Oklahoma as an S rather than a D.)</p>

	<p>Barry, what you describe is exactly how I remember it too. But I think Lemuel is right that a real liberal-conservative ranking (which this isn&#8217;t exactly supposed to be) might weight some votes more than others. Then you&#8217;re into subjective territory, though.</p>

	<p>Others have also pointed out that there&#8217;s a lot more than the final vote that goes into liberalism and conservatism. There&#8217;s amendments and negotiations in Congress, and there&#8217;s the rhetorical status you take outside of Congress. Feinstein often seems to be illiberal on the procedural stuff, and Lieberman loves to undercut the liberal position on talk shows. Still, this is interesting at measuring what it does measure.</p>
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		<title>By: lemuel pitkin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/01/liberal-senators/comment-page-1/#comment-226632</link>
		<dc:creator>lemuel pitkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 22:18:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/01/liberal-senators/#comment-226632</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;whatever, megan’s taller than you are…&lt;/i&gt;

Plus she has &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/7065.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;better hair&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>whatever, megan&#8217;s taller than you are&#8230;</i></p>

	<p>Plus she has <a href="http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/7065.html" rel="nofollow">better hair</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/01/liberal-senators/comment-page-1/#comment-226631</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 22:07:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/01/liberal-senators/#comment-226631</guid>
		<description>&quot;More generally, given the winner-take-all system, a lot of what you’re going to see is regional patterns. Whcih, as has been noted, are a lot less strong now that the South has been somewhat civilized.&quot;
Posted by lemuel pitkin · 

From memory, what this sort of analysis showed was that there *had been* a two-axis system, which was chiefly due to the Dixiecrats (i.e., a hard-right regional faction allied with a generally more liberal party).  Once the Dixiecrats died/retired/converted to the Republican party, the two axes collapsed to a single, left-right axis.

In addition, to answer your question about technique, IIRC they only counted votes with some disagreement; e.g., a vote for &#039;National Flowers&#039; week, passing with close to 100%, would not have been counted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;More generally, given the winner-take-all system, a lot of what you&#8217;re going to see is regional patterns. Whcih, as has been noted, are a lot less strong now that the South has been somewhat civilized.&#8221;<br />
Posted by lemuel pitkin &#183;</p>

	<p>From memory, what this sort of analysis showed was that there <strong>had been</strong> a two-axis system, which was chiefly due to the Dixiecrats (i.e., a hard-right regional faction allied with a generally more liberal party).  Once the Dixiecrats died/retired/converted to the Republican party, the two axes collapsed to a single, left-right axis.</p>

	<p>In addition, to answer your question about technique, <span class="caps">IIRC</span> they only counted votes with some disagreement; e.g., a vote for &#8216;National Flowers&#8217; week, passing with close to 100%, would not have been counted.</p>
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		<title>By: thompsaj</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/01/liberal-senators/comment-page-1/#comment-226629</link>
		<dc:creator>thompsaj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 21:35:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/01/liberal-senators/#comment-226629</guid>
		<description>whatever, megan&#039;s taller than you are...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>whatever, megan&#8217;s taller than you are&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Colin Danby</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/01/liberal-senators/comment-page-1/#comment-226628</link>
		<dc:creator>Colin Danby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 21:17:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/01/liberal-senators/#comment-226628</guid>
		<description>The mind reels:

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2008/01/31/volcker-i-endorse-obama/


http://www.vnews.com/02012008/4601389.htm

The Performance-artist community splits:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2JoSo17Azk&amp;e
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEmiavw_-sE

Forget axes, we have a crisis of representation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The mind reels:</p>

	<p><a href="http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2008/01/31/volcker-i-endorse-obama/" rel="nofollow">http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2008/01/31/volcker-i-endorse-obama/</a></p>


	<p><a href="http://www.vnews.com/02012008/4601389.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.vnews.com/02012008/4601389.htm</a></p>

	<p>The Performance-artist community splits:</p>

	<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2JoSo17Azk&#038;e" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2JoSo17Azk&#038;e</a><br />
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEmiavw_-sE" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEmiavw_-sE</a></p>

	<p>Forget axes, we have a crisis of representation.</p>
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		<title>By: JP Stormcrow</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/01/liberal-senators/comment-page-1/#comment-226626</link>
		<dc:creator>JP Stormcrow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 19:44:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/01/liberal-senators/#comment-226626</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Who is the most liberal fascist senator? I’d have to guess Hillary, but I’d like to see the hard numbers.&lt;/i&gt;

And hard numbers you shall have. By means of a &lt;a href=&quot;http://cryptoclub.math.uic.edu/substitutioncipher/ltr_num.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;sophisticated numerical analysis&lt;/a&gt; I have determined that the numeric value of &lt;i&gt;Can I haz Liberal Fascism?&lt;/i&gt; is 170. And guess what? By the same analysis Hitlery* Clinton has value 170 as well. QED

*Thanks to Barry for pointing out that it is properly &quot;Hitlery&quot; and not &quot;Hillary&quot;. It wasn&#039;t adding up correctly with &quot;Hillary&quot;, which had me thinking that my methodology was flawed and I would need to find another one. He saved me a lot of time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Who is the most liberal fascist senator? I&#8217;d have to guess Hillary, but I&#8217;d like to see the hard numbers.</i></p>

	<p>And hard numbers you shall have. By means of a <a href="http://cryptoclub.math.uic.edu/substitutioncipher/ltr_num.htm" rel="nofollow">sophisticated numerical analysis</a> I have determined that the numeric value of <i>Can I haz Liberal Fascism?</i> is 170. And guess what? By the same analysis Hitlery* Clinton has value 170 as well. <span class="caps">QED</span></p>

	<p>*Thanks to Barry for pointing out that it is properly &#8220;Hitlery&#8221; and not &#8220;Hillary&#8221;. It wasn&#8217;t adding up correctly with &#8220;Hillary&#8221;, which had me thinking that my methodology was flawed and I would need to find another one. He saved me a lot of time.</p>
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		<title>By: lemuel pitkin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/01/liberal-senators/comment-page-1/#comment-226624</link>
		<dc:creator>lemuel pitkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 18:32:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/01/liberal-senators/#comment-226624</guid>
		<description>This is all exceedingly interesting (especailly Matt W.&#039;s 15.)

But I think one problem is that all votes are not created equal. To get a mapping that corresponds to our intuition, you&#039;d have to give greater weight to certain key votes, and there doesn&#039;t seem to be any obvious &quot;automatic&quot; way of doing that.

In this case, most of the anomalies (Lieberman, Paul, etc.) come from positions on the war. Foreign policy by its nature sees fewer roll-call votes, so it&#039;s going to get underweighted in this analysis. If you could somehow correct for that, you might see two axes again. Or not -- Lieberman and Paul may be sui generis.

More generally, given the winner-take-all system, a lot of what you&#039;re going to see is regional patterns. Whcih, as has been noted, are a lot less strong now that the South has been somewhat civilized.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>This is all exceedingly interesting (especailly Matt W.&#8217;s 15.)</p>

	<p>But I think one problem is that all votes are not created equal. To get a mapping that corresponds to our intuition, you&#8217;d have to give greater weight to certain key votes, and there doesn&#8217;t seem to be any obvious &#8220;automatic&#8221; way of doing that.</p>

	<p>In this case, most of the anomalies (Lieberman, Paul, etc.) come from positions on the war. Foreign policy by its nature sees fewer roll-call votes, so it&#8217;s going to get underweighted in this analysis. If you could somehow correct for that, you might see two axes again. Or not&#8212;Lieberman and Paul may be sui generis.</p>

	<p>More generally, given the winner-take-all system, a lot of what you&#8217;re going to see is regional patterns. Whcih, as has been noted, are a lot less strong now that the South has been somewhat civilized.</p>
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