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	<title>Comments on: On Certainty and Illegal Substitutions</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/04/on-certainty-and-illegal-substitutions/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: mpowell</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/04/on-certainty-and-illegal-substitutions/comment-page-2/#comment-227342</link>
		<dc:creator>mpowell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 19:15:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/04/on-certainty-and-illegal-substitutions/#comment-227342</guid>
		<description>piggy-backing on indecisive&#039;s comment: the exactness of the rule is relevant in football b/c of the strategy adaptation that follows.  You always want to have the right players on the field at any given time, but there are rules relating to both the offense and the defense that govern the teams&#039; actions in this regard.

And the NFL also has pretty good adaptation of these rules.  If you participate in the play as a 12th man, this is a 15 yard penalty and an automatic first down, I believe.  So there is an appropriate distintion made between true cheating and just getting caught with your strategic pants down.

Finally, in football, breaking the front plane of the end zone is the appropriate distinguisher for a touchdown.  The football is being carried, not struck across the line so it is usually easier to tell when the nose has crossed, not the back end cleared, the line.  Furthermore, the rules lead to an easier discernment of the situation with regard to the pylons: if you touch a pylon with the football before going down, it is a touchdown.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>piggy-backing on indecisive&#8217;s comment: the exactness of the rule is relevant in football b/c of the strategy adaptation that follows.  You always want to have the right players on the field at any given time, but there are rules relating to both the offense and the defense that govern the teams&#8217; actions in this regard.</p>

	<p>And the <span class="caps">NFL</span> also has pretty good adaptation of these rules.  If you participate in the play as a 12th man, this is a 15 yard penalty and an automatic first down, I believe.  So there is an appropriate distintion made between true cheating and just getting caught with your strategic pants down.</p>

	<p>Finally, in football, breaking the front plane of the end zone is the appropriate distinguisher for a touchdown.  The football is being carried, not struck across the line so it is usually easier to tell when the nose has crossed, not the back end cleared, the line.  Furthermore, the rules lead to an easier discernment of the situation with regard to the pylons: if you touch a pylon with the football before going down, it is a touchdown.</p>
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		<title>By: Thom Brooks</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/04/on-certainty-and-illegal-substitutions/comment-page-2/#comment-227131</link>
		<dc:creator>Thom Brooks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 18:17:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/04/on-certainty-and-illegal-substitutions/#comment-227131</guid>
		<description>Of course, Michael, I don&#039;t love New England enough to actually continue living there... (I left more than a decade ago.)

The real question is not whether the Patriots should be from &quot;New England&quot; (or &quot;Northeast Region&quot;), but why the Giants are said to be from &quot;New York&quot; when, well, they aren&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Of course, Michael, I don&#8217;t love New England enough to actually continue living there&#8230; (I left more than a decade ago.)</p>

	<p>The real question is not whether the Patriots should be from &#8220;New England&#8221; (or &#8220;Northeast Region&#8221;), but why the Giants are said to be from &#8220;New York&#8221; when, well, they aren&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: John Protevi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/04/on-certainty-and-illegal-substitutions/comment-page-2/#comment-227101</link>
		<dc:creator>John Protevi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 14:28:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/04/on-certainty-and-illegal-substitutions/#comment-227101</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;as University of California head coach Michael Fukolt suggested in 1977&lt;/i&gt;

It&#039;s not often recognized that Coach Fukolt took his famous &quot;eye in the sky&quot; &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.thedowntowngallery.com/memorabilia/photo_bryanttower_small.jpg&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;coaching tower&lt;/a&gt; idea from his bitter rival, MIT head coach Nathan &quot;Natty&quot; Chompers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>as University of California head coach Michael Fukolt suggested in 1977</i></p>

	<p>It&#8217;s not often recognized that Coach Fukolt took his famous &#8220;eye in the sky&#8221; <a href="http://www.thedowntowngallery.com/memorabilia/photo_bryanttower_small.jpg" rel="nofollow">coaching tower</a> idea from his bitter rival, <span class="caps">MIT</span> head coach Nathan &#8220;Natty&#8221; Chompers.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Bérubé</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/04/on-certainty-and-illegal-substitutions/comment-page-2/#comment-227074</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Bérubé</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 05:54:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/04/on-certainty-and-illegal-substitutions/#comment-227074</guid>
		<description>Handmaiden and indecisive are exactly right -- or exactly enough to matter.  Hockey is indeed supposed to be more fluid than football, hence the (appropriate) definitional fuzziness about changes on the fly.  (Though I feel compelled to add that changes on the fly are &lt;i&gt;themselves&lt;/i&gt; very cool in a kind of structurally-superior kind of way . . . more or less.)  And the rigidity of football&#039;s rules has indeed been an incitement to innovative no-huddle and special-teams discourse, thereby producing all manner of &quot;resistances,&quot; as University of California head coach Michael Fukolt suggested in 1977.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Handmaiden and indecisive are exactly right&#8212;or exactly enough to matter.  Hockey is indeed supposed to be more fluid than football, hence the (appropriate) definitional fuzziness about changes on the fly.  (Though I feel compelled to add that changes on the fly are <i>themselves</i> very cool in a kind of structurally-superior kind of way . . . more or less.)  And the rigidity of football&#8217;s rules has indeed been an incitement to innovative no-huddle and special-teams discourse, thereby producing all manner of &#8220;resistances,&#8221; as University of California head coach Michael Fukolt suggested in 1977.</p>
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		<title>By: The Super Bowl and Wittgenstein &#171; The View from Alexandria</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/04/on-certainty-and-illegal-substitutions/comment-page-2/#comment-227073</link>
		<dc:creator>The Super Bowl and Wittgenstein &#171; The View from Alexandria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 05:50:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/04/on-certainty-and-illegal-substitutions/#comment-227073</guid>
		<description>[...] No one can beat that. I missed, however, the relevance of the Philosophical Investigations to the game. Luckily, Michael Berube has a transcription. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] No one can beat that. I missed, however, the relevance of the Philosophical Investigations to the game. Luckily, Michael Berube has a transcription. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Indecisive</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/04/on-certainty-and-illegal-substitutions/comment-page-2/#comment-227067</link>
		<dc:creator>Indecisive</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 04:08:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/04/on-certainty-and-illegal-substitutions/#comment-227067</guid>
		<description>What the discussion b/t Aikman and Buck is missing is that the rule, in its exactness, has led to further development of game strategy, literally making it a different game.  New strategies based on this rule include variations on the no huddle offense where the offense snaps the ball much more quickly than expected in hopes of catching outgoing defensive men on the field (used to perfection a number of times by my U of Illinois team this year), and trick plays (usually punts), where the eleventh offensive player runs toward the sideline, appearing to try to get off the field, but stops just short of the line and turns downfield as a receiver when the ball is snapped (the Bears did this for a 40+ yard gain back in the early 90s).  The debate doesn&#039;t seem to be between the spirit and the letter of the rules, but what kind of a game the rules (and their enforcement) allow to be created.  Loosely-called rules create different game conditions than strictly-called rules, which leads to a somewhat different game.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>What the discussion b/t Aikman and Buck is missing is that the rule, in its exactness, has led to further development of game strategy, literally making it a different game.  New strategies based on this rule include variations on the no huddle offense where the offense snaps the ball much more quickly than expected in hopes of catching outgoing defensive men on the field (used to perfection a number of times by my U of Illinois team this year), and trick plays (usually punts), where the eleventh offensive player runs toward the sideline, appearing to try to get off the field, but stops just short of the line and turns downfield as a receiver when the ball is snapped (the Bears did this for a 40+ yard gain back in the early 90s).  The debate doesn&#8217;t seem to be between the spirit and the letter of the rules, but what kind of a game the rules (and their enforcement) allow to be created.  Loosely-called rules create different game conditions than strictly-called rules, which leads to a somewhat different game.</p>
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		<title>By: The Constructivist</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/04/on-certainty-and-illegal-substitutions/comment-page-2/#comment-227063</link>
		<dc:creator>The Constructivist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 03:32:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/04/on-certainty-and-illegal-substitutions/#comment-227063</guid>
		<description>Can&#039;t wait for your next post in this series the next time a big rules dispute comes up in the world o&#039; &lt;a href=&quot;http://mlyhlss.blogspot.com/2008/02/webb-wins-in-australia.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;golf&lt;/a&gt;....

Did I make you look?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Can&#8217;t wait for your next post in this series the next time a big rules dispute comes up in the world o&#8217; <a href="http://mlyhlss.blogspot.com/2008/02/webb-wins-in-australia.html" rel="nofollow">golf</a>&#8230;.</p>

	<p>Did I make you look?</p>
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		<title>By: patrick noel</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/04/on-certainty-and-illegal-substitutions/comment-page-2/#comment-227052</link>
		<dc:creator>patrick noel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 02:09:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/04/on-certainty-and-illegal-substitutions/#comment-227052</guid>
		<description>&quot;Pettifogging&quot;? &quot;Pettifogging&quot;?

I always knew that shifty-eyed Aikman was a foul-mouthed blackguard.  

Properly civil football fans spent their Sunday watching the Boca-River SUPERclasico (Tivo&#039;d the night before to fill the dearth of gentlemanly sport available the next day, of course).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Pettifogging&#8221;? &#8220;Pettifogging&#8221;?</p>

	<p>I always knew that shifty-eyed Aikman was a foul-mouthed blackguard.</p>

	<p>Properly civil football fans spent their Sunday watching the Boca-River <span class="caps">SUPE</span>Rclasico (Tivo&#8217;d the night before to fill the dearth of gentlemanly sport available the next day, of course).</p>
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		<title>By: Bloix</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/04/on-certainty-and-illegal-substitutions/comment-page-2/#comment-227048</link>
		<dc:creator>Bloix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 01:25:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/04/on-certainty-and-illegal-substitutions/#comment-227048</guid>
		<description>Some rules are designed to be applied without any need for an understanding of the game or sport.  Precision is the ideal, and judgment in a broad sense is not wanted.  Sometimes officials are actually replaced by machines, which can detect events that human beings can&#039;t. (It&#039;s not possible to judge the winner of a high-level swimming competition by eye, and in fencing a score is registered by the closing of an electric circuit.)  

Some rules require a sophisticated understanding of the game.  The most famous example is the offside rule in soccer.  After defining what it means for a player to be &quot;in the offside position,&quot; the rule continues:

A player in an offside position is only penalised if, at the moment the ball touches or is played by one of his team, he is, in the opinion of the referee, involved in active play by: 

interfering with play 
interfering with an opponent 
gaining an advantage by being in that position

http://www.offside-ref.co.uk/laws/11-offside-rule/detailed/

You can see by the offside rule, it is possible to distinguish between the two kinds of rules within the rule itself.

Note that the offside rule gives rise to more arguments than just about anything else in soccer.  It&#039;s pretty generally agreed that the rule is a problem.  If it were possible to create an offside rule that didn&#039;t require judgment, soccer would do it.  The need for judgment is a flaw in the game -- not a disaster, but a flaw.

So one should assume that the writers of the rule book understand the considerations and are capable of indicating how a given rule should be applied.  If they decide not to call for judgment, then presumably they decided that mechanical application is better for the game.  Obviously judgment is necessary as to whether the literal requirement of the rule is satisfied, but judgment regarding the nature or purpose of the rule is not called for.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Some rules are designed to be applied without any need for an understanding of the game or sport.  Precision is the ideal, and judgment in a broad sense is not wanted.  Sometimes officials are actually replaced by machines, which can detect events that human beings can&#8217;t. (It&#8217;s not possible to judge the winner of a high-level swimming competition by eye, and in fencing a score is registered by the closing of an electric circuit.)</p>

	<p>Some rules require a sophisticated understanding of the game.  The most famous example is the offside rule in soccer.  After defining what it means for a player to be &#8220;in the offside position,&#8221; the rule continues:</p>

	<p>A player in an offside position is only penalised if, at the moment the ball touches or is played by one of his team, he is, in the opinion of the referee, involved in active play by:</p>

	<p>interfering with play<br />
interfering with an opponent<br />
gaining an advantage by being in that position</p>

	<p><a href="http://www.offside-ref.co.uk/laws/11-offside-rule/detailed/" rel="nofollow">http://www.offside-ref.co.uk/laws/11-offside-rule/detailed/</a></p>

	<p>You can see by the offside rule, it is possible to distinguish between the two kinds of rules within the rule itself.</p>

	<p>Note that the offside rule gives rise to more arguments than just about anything else in soccer.  It&#8217;s pretty generally agreed that the rule is a problem.  If it were possible to create an offside rule that didn&#8217;t require judgment, soccer would do it.  The need for judgment is a flaw in the game&#8212;not a disaster, but a flaw.</p>

	<p>So one should assume that the writers of the rule book understand the considerations and are capable of indicating how a given rule should be applied.  If they decide not to call for judgment, then presumably they decided that mechanical application is better for the game.  Obviously judgment is necessary as to whether the literal requirement of the rule is satisfied, but judgment regarding the nature or purpose of the rule is not called for.</p>
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		<title>By: Handmaiden to the Sciences</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/04/on-certainty-and-illegal-substitutions/comment-page-2/#comment-227043</link>
		<dc:creator>Handmaiden to the Sciences</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 00:16:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/04/on-certainty-and-illegal-substitutions/#comment-227043</guid>
		<description>Michael Bérubé, your imaginary discussion is very funny, and also insightful into the issue of applying rules. Thanks! A serious reply: rather than inferring that the difference in how substitution rules are applied in hockey vs football speaks to which game is better governed, isn&#039;t it possible that the application of this rule in particular reflects the difference in how the games are intended to be played? Hockey is meant to be a very fluid game with lots of substitutions. Football is intended to be a stop-and-go game with fewer substitutions. Therefore, it makes sense for a football game to be governed with more precise attention to the legalities of substitution, and for issues of this sort to be reviewable. Wittgenstein&#039;s point at §88 is that standards of precision should be appropriate to the intended effect of their application, and I think we can infer the same attitude towards whether or not to invoke them at all in various circumstances.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Michael B&#233;rub&#233;, your imaginary discussion is very funny, and also insightful into the issue of applying rules. Thanks! A serious reply: rather than inferring that the difference in how substitution rules are applied in hockey vs football speaks to which game is better governed, isn&#8217;t it possible that the application of this rule in particular reflects the difference in how the games are intended to be played? Hockey is meant to be a very fluid game with lots of substitutions. Football is intended to be a stop-and-go game with fewer substitutions. Therefore, it makes sense for a football game to be governed with more precise attention to the legalities of substitution, and for issues of this sort to be reviewable. Wittgenstein&#8217;s point at &#167;88 is that standards of precision should be appropriate to the intended effect of their application, and I think we can infer the same attitude towards whether or not to invoke them at all in various circumstances.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Bérubé</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/04/on-certainty-and-illegal-substitutions/comment-page-2/#comment-227042</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Bérubé</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 00:14:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/04/on-certainty-and-illegal-substitutions/#comment-227042</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Dave. The whole exchange is indeed weighted in Joe&#039;s favor, and Aikman is clearly cherry-picking --  though I agree that the Testaverde line was a low blow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thanks, Dave. The whole exchange is indeed weighted in Joe&#8217;s favor, and Aikman is clearly cherry-picking&#8212; though I agree that the Testaverde line was a low blow.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Maier</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/04/on-certainty-and-illegal-substitutions/comment-page-2/#comment-227023</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Maier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Feb 2008 20:34:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/04/on-certainty-and-illegal-substitutions/#comment-227023</guid>
		<description>Very nice post.  I hate to address the substance, but unfortunately I have no dazzling witticisms to share.

First, of course Joe&#039;s reading of §88 is much better than Troy&#039;s.  (I like Joe&#039;s line: &quot;I do&quot; – nice touch.)  Troy needs to re-read that whole line of argument, going back to, say, §65, where Wittgenstein addresses what he sees as the main objection to his preceding discussion about naming: i.e., that he has helped himself to the idea of various &quot;language-games&quot; without specifying exactly what makes something &quot;language&quot; in the first place.  So in §66 he introduces the famous example of &quot;game&quot; as a &quot;family-resemblance&quot; concept, and much of what follows discusses the senses in which particular games are constituted by rules.  §88 is the culmination of that discussion, the moral of which is basically the last sentence of §87: &quot;the sign-post [that is, the rule] is in order [is perfectly &quot;exact&quot; in the relevant sense]—if, under normal circumstances, it fulfills its purpose.&quot;

Still, I think Joe&#039;s comparison to hockey (and his reading of §88 in that context) is only partly successful.  It&#039;s fine to argue that the too-many-players rule in football is artificially exact, and that the criterion should be more as it is in hockey, i.e. that it should be invoked only when the player(s) in question are not &quot;out of the play.&quot;  But as written, hockey&#039;s Rule 17, while more appropriate by these lights, seems almost as &quot;exact&quot; in the disputed sense.  It doesn&#039;t just say &quot;it&#039;s okay if the player is out of the play&quot;: it goes on to specify &lt;i&gt;when that is&lt;/i&gt;, even going so far as to give a particular distance from the bench.  The difference may have less to do with differing standards of exactness in general than with the fact that football, unlike hockey, is made up of distinct &quot;plays&quot; with appropriately specified beginnings and endings, which I&#039;m surprised Troy didn&#039;t bring up.

I see that the questionable point about goals and touchdowns has already been questioned, so I&#039;ll refrain from questioning it further.  The real question is: what would Wittgenstein say about the neighborhood play, the phantom tag, and the wide strike (none of which are in the rule book)?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Very nice post.  I hate to address the substance, but unfortunately I have no dazzling witticisms to share.</p>

	<p>First, of course Joe&#8217;s reading of &#167;88 is much better than Troy&#8217;s.  (I like Joe&#8217;s line: &#8220;I do&#8221; &#8211; nice touch.)  Troy needs to re-read that whole line of argument, going back to, say, &#167;65, where Wittgenstein addresses what he sees as the main objection to his preceding discussion about naming: i.e., that he has helped himself to the idea of various &#8220;language-games&#8221; without specifying exactly what makes something &#8220;language&#8221; in the first place.  So in &#167;66 he introduces the famous example of &#8220;game&#8221; as a &#8220;family-resemblance&#8221; concept, and much of what follows discusses the senses in which particular games are constituted by rules.  &#167;88 is the culmination of that discussion, the moral of which is basically the last sentence of &#167;87: &#8220;the sign-post [that is, the rule] is in order [is perfectly &#8220;exact&#8221; in the relevant sense]&#8212;if, under normal circumstances, it fulfills its purpose.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Still, I think Joe&#8217;s comparison to hockey (and his reading of &#167;88 in that context) is only partly successful.  It&#8217;s fine to argue that the too-many-players rule in football is artificially exact, and that the criterion should be more as it is in hockey, i.e. that it should be invoked only when the player(s) in question are not &#8220;out of the play.&#8221;  But as written, hockey&#8217;s Rule 17, while more appropriate by these lights, seems almost as &#8220;exact&#8221; in the disputed sense.  It doesn&#8217;t just say &#8220;it&#8217;s okay if the player is out of the play&#8221;: it goes on to specify <i>when that is</i>, even going so far as to give a particular distance from the bench.  The difference may have less to do with differing standards of exactness in general than with the fact that football, unlike hockey, is made up of distinct &#8220;plays&#8221; with appropriately specified beginnings and endings, which I&#8217;m surprised Troy didn&#8217;t bring up.</p>

	<p>I see that the questionable point about goals and touchdowns has already been questioned, so I&#8217;ll refrain from questioning it further.  The real question is: what would Wittgenstein say about the neighborhood play, the phantom tag, and the wide strike (none of which are in the rule book)?</p>
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		<title>By: Righteous Bubba</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/04/on-certainty-and-illegal-substitutions/comment-page-2/#comment-227022</link>
		<dc:creator>Righteous Bubba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Feb 2008 20:33:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/04/on-certainty-and-illegal-substitutions/#comment-227022</guid>
		<description>Yes, it&#039;s kind of like that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Yes, it&#8217;s kind of like that.</p>
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		<title>By: Bloix</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/04/on-certainty-and-illegal-substitutions/comment-page-2/#comment-227017</link>
		<dc:creator>Bloix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Feb 2008 20:10:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/04/on-certainty-and-illegal-substitutions/#comment-227017</guid>
		<description>The Patriots website advises that &quot;the season ended with an unfortunate result for the Patriots.&quot;  Kind of like Hirohito announcing that &quot;the war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan&#039;s advantage.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The Patriots website advises that &#8220;the season ended with an unfortunate result for the Patriots.&#8221;  Kind of like Hirohito announcing that &#8220;the war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan&#8217;s advantage.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: P O'Neill</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/04/on-certainty-and-illegal-substitutions/comment-page-2/#comment-227013</link>
		<dc:creator>P O'Neill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Feb 2008 18:37:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/04/on-certainty-and-illegal-substitutions/#comment-227013</guid>
		<description>We&#039;ve somehow managed to get this far in the thread without noting another oval-balled sport where video review of probably undeterminable states has a big effect on outcomes.

Like Old England &lt;a href=&quot;http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/7052822.stm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;not getting a try&lt;/a&gt; against South Africa in the World Cup final.  

With the additional complication that a try, unlike a touchdown, requires a touchdown, so the precise coordinates &lt;a href=&quot;http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&amp;q=cueto+try&amp;btnG=Search+Images&amp;gbv=2&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;of the ball as well as the leg&lt;/a&gt; both matter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>We&#8217;ve somehow managed to get this far in the thread without noting another oval-balled sport where video review of probably undeterminable states has a big effect on outcomes.</p>

	<p>Like Old England <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/7052822.stm" rel="nofollow">not getting a try</a> against South Africa in the World Cup final.</p>

	<p>With the additional complication that a try, unlike a touchdown, requires a touchdown, so the precise coordinates <a href="http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&#038;q=cueto+try&#038;btnG=Search+Images&#038;gbv=2" rel="nofollow">of the ball as well as the leg</a> both matter.</p>
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