Comments on: Some of us are illegal, and some are not wanted …. http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/12/some-of-us-are-illegal-and-some-are-not-wanted/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sun, 27 May 2012 04:59:01 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: JET http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/12/some-of-us-are-illegal-and-some-are-not-wanted/comment-page-1/#comment-228340 JET Sat, 16 Feb 2008 15:23:06 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/12/some-of-us-are-illegal-and-some-are-not-wanted/#comment-228340 I'm *more* surprised when artists who are musically deeply conservative and opposed to innovation, change and development - like Young - come out in favor of progressive politics. Same goes for folkies, who are about the most conservative musical genre of all by its very definition. I’m more surprised when artists who are musically deeply conservative and opposed to innovation, change and development – like Young – come out in favor of progressive politics. Same goes for folkies, who are about the most conservative musical genre of all by its very definition.

]]> By: harry b http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/12/some-of-us-are-illegal-and-some-are-not-wanted/comment-page-1/#comment-228302 harry b Sat, 16 Feb 2008 00:33:57 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/12/some-of-us-are-illegal-and-some-are-not-wanted/#comment-228302 I think that's right about Neil Young, and I certainly find it forgivable. This too, if Arlo repents appropriately (as Young did). Smoking dope counts as political unconsciousness, surely. I think that’s right about Neil Young, and I certainly find it forgivable. This too, if Arlo repents appropriately (as Young did). Smoking dope counts as political unconsciousness, surely.

]]> By: Kathryn Cramer http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/12/some-of-us-are-illegal-and-some-are-not-wanted/comment-page-1/#comment-228292 Kathryn Cramer Fri, 15 Feb 2008 20:59:44 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/12/some-of-us-are-illegal-and-some-are-not-wanted/#comment-228292 Surely that must be reprinted from the Onion. Surely that must be reprinted from the Onion.

]]> By: vanya http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/12/some-of-us-are-illegal-and-some-are-not-wanted/comment-page-1/#comment-228024 vanya Wed, 13 Feb 2008 21:59:01 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/12/some-of-us-are-illegal-and-some-are-not-wanted/#comment-228024 I've never understood the uncritical sympathy for illegal immigration on the left either. Yes, a lot of nasty racists are opposed to immigration, but that doesn't ipso facto mean that uncontrolled immigration is a good thing. And nativists aren't always wrong - it is fairly easy to find historical examples of immigrants taking over and uprooting the original inhabitants. America and Australia being first on the list, Palestine is a more recent example. Clearly most opposition to immigration is driven at its root by fear - fear of losing one's job, fear of losing one's place in society, fear of seeing one's children adopt an alien culture and values or, worse, seeing one's children be unable to compete in a culture with new and different values. The lack of sympathy that affluent well educated liberals have for the fears of working class white and black Americans is disappointing. Rather than simply lecturing people not to be racist, it would probably make more sense to work towards a society where ordinary people don't feel like they're living on a razor's edge and consequently look for scapegoats. And as always one has to wonder cui bono? When both the right-wing Mexican political elites and the US business elites are united in full-throated support of immigration, don't you have to look a little more closely at what's really going on? I know a lot of leftists simply take the position that "if some red neck Texan is against it, than I'm for it!" but I feel the same way about any position the WSJ editorial board takes. I’ve never understood the uncritical sympathy for illegal immigration on the left either. Yes, a lot of nasty racists are opposed to immigration, but that doesn’t ipso facto mean that uncontrolled immigration is a good thing. And nativists aren’t always wrong – it is fairly easy to find historical examples of immigrants taking over and uprooting the original inhabitants. America and Australia being first on the list, Palestine is a more recent example.

Clearly most opposition to immigration is driven at its root by fear – fear of losing one’s job, fear of losing one’s place in society, fear of seeing one’s children adopt an alien culture and values or, worse, seeing one’s children be unable to compete in a culture with new and different values. The lack of sympathy that affluent well educated liberals have for the fears of working class white and black Americans is disappointing. Rather than simply lecturing people not to be racist, it would probably make more sense to work towards a society where ordinary people don’t feel like they’re living on a razor’s edge and consequently look for scapegoats.

And as always one has to wonder cui bono? When both the right-wing Mexican political elites and the US business elites are united in full-throated support of immigration, don’t you have to look a little more closely at what’s really going on? I know a lot of leftists simply take the position that “if some red neck Texan is against it, than I’m for it!” but I feel the same way about any position the WSJ editorial board takes.

]]> By: Gus http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/12/some-of-us-are-illegal-and-some-are-not-wanted/comment-page-1/#comment-228013 Gus Wed, 13 Feb 2008 20:22:03 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/12/some-of-us-are-illegal-and-some-are-not-wanted/#comment-228013 Meh. Disappointing, but we all make mistakes. Didn't Neil Young come out for Reagan in '80? Meh. Disappointing, but we all make mistakes. Didn’t Neil Young come out for Reagan in ‘80?

]]> By: Rich Puchalsky http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/12/some-of-us-are-illegal-and-some-are-not-wanted/comment-page-1/#comment-227982 Rich Puchalsky Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:39:48 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/12/some-of-us-are-illegal-and-some-are-not-wanted/#comment-227982 Nobody said that anyone should actually *like* the Democrats. I'm just glad that I will likely never again have to read a lecture about how there is no difference between the two parties, and that the Democrats are hopelessly corrupted, and that all of the mathematics of the existing U.S. electoral system that essentially guarantees that there will be two major parties who win almost all elections has to be ignored for reasons of morality, etc. Nobody said that anyone should actually like the Democrats. I’m just glad that I will likely never again have to read a lecture about how there is no difference between the two parties, and that the Democrats are hopelessly corrupted, and that all of the mathematics of the existing U.S. electoral system that essentially guarantees that there will be two major parties who win almost all elections has to be ignored for reasons of morality, etc.

]]> By: saurabh http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/12/some-of-us-are-illegal-and-some-are-not-wanted/comment-page-1/#comment-227945 saurabh Wed, 13 Feb 2008 14:06:44 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/12/some-of-us-are-illegal-and-some-are-not-wanted/#comment-227945 <i>Nader may have thankfully killed off the kind of annoying leftie who was always too good for the impure, soiled Democrats.</i> Naw, he just convinced us that it was a bad idea to vote for pompous jerks. We still don't like the Democrats any, and probably never will. Annoying, ain't we? Nader may have thankfully killed off the kind of annoying leftie who was always too good for the impure, soiled Democrats.

Naw, he just convinced us that it was a bad idea to vote for pompous jerks. We still don’t like the Democrats any, and probably never will. Annoying, ain’t we?

]]> By: Righteous Bubba http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/12/some-of-us-are-illegal-and-some-are-not-wanted/comment-page-1/#comment-227871 Righteous Bubba Wed, 13 Feb 2008 04:45:38 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/12/some-of-us-are-illegal-and-some-are-not-wanted/#comment-227871 <i>By all means condemn Guthrie</i> I think you're giving this far more thought than Arlo did, but fortunately we both agree that Ron Paul is a fool. By all means condemn Guthrie

I think you’re giving this far more thought than Arlo did, but fortunately we both agree that Ron Paul is a fool.

]]> By: Sendang http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/12/some-of-us-are-illegal-and-some-are-not-wanted/comment-page-1/#comment-227866 Sendang Wed, 13 Feb 2008 03:36:48 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/12/some-of-us-are-illegal-and-some-are-not-wanted/#comment-227866 Righteous Bubba: The endorsement came in late January. By that time it was clear that Paul wasn't going to be the Republican nominee. If you're looking to make a protest vote you look for different things than you do if you are looking for a viable leader for the country. Given that he isn't going to be President the issues that he is raising are more important than his character, his old friends, etc. By all means condemn Guthrie if you think that his endorsement helps the anti-immigration cause more than it does the anti-war cause and that compromise seems unreasonable to you. At least recognize, though, that a protest vote is often more about speaking up about some issues than about the person you're voting for. Righteous Bubba:

The endorsement came in late January. By that time it was clear that Paul wasn’t going to be the Republican nominee. If you’re looking to make a protest vote you look for different things than you do if you are looking for a viable leader for the country. Given that he isn’t going to be President the issues that he is raising are more important than his character, his old friends, etc.

By all means condemn Guthrie if you think that his endorsement helps the anti-immigration cause more than it does the anti-war cause and that compromise seems unreasonable to you. At least recognize, though, that a protest vote is often more about speaking up about some issues than about the person you’re voting for.

]]> By: Righteous Bubba http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/12/some-of-us-are-illegal-and-some-are-not-wanted/comment-page-1/#comment-227858 Righteous Bubba Wed, 13 Feb 2008 02:45:58 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/12/some-of-us-are-illegal-and-some-are-not-wanted/#comment-227858 <i>So maybe Guthrie compromised. With the set of candidates we have left that is inevitable.</i> There's compromising with candidates and there's <a href="http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2007/06/ron-paul-vs-new-world-order.html" rel="nofollow">compromising with nuts.</a> So maybe Guthrie compromised. With the set of candidates we have left that is inevitable.

There’s compromising with candidates and there’s compromising with nuts.

]]> By: Sendang http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/12/some-of-us-are-illegal-and-some-are-not-wanted/comment-page-1/#comment-227856 Sendang Wed, 13 Feb 2008 02:11:03 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/12/some-of-us-are-illegal-and-some-are-not-wanted/#comment-227856 So maybe Guthrie compromised. With the set of candidates we have left that is inevitable. If he had, say, supported Clinton on healthcare but disagreed with her on Iraq and decided to endorse her anyhow I'm not sure all of you would be complaining so loudly. Rich: "(Actually, his effect on anti-war organizing is probably negative. If you view support for Paul as indicating anti-war views, then you’re tempted to say that anti-war views top out at the level of Paul’s support, and can safely be ignored.)" Who would conclude that Paul's level of support is equivalent to the level of opposition to the war? Obviously many (probably most) of those who make ending the war their top priority will vote in the Democratic primary. Nonetheless, Paul has successfully brought together the minority of conservatives who do want to get out of Iraq soon. So maybe Guthrie compromised. With the set of candidates we have left that is inevitable. If he had, say, supported Clinton on healthcare but disagreed with her on Iraq and decided to endorse her anyhow I’m not sure all of you would be complaining so loudly.

Rich:

“(Actually, his effect on anti-war organizing is probably negative. If you view support for Paul as indicating anti-war views, then you’re tempted to say that anti-war views top out at the level of Paul’s support, and can safely be ignored.)”

Who would conclude that Paul’s level of support is equivalent to the level of opposition to the war? Obviously many (probably most) of those who make ending the war their top priority will vote in the Democratic primary. Nonetheless, Paul has successfully brought together the minority of conservatives who do want to get out of Iraq soon.

]]> By: roger http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/12/some-of-us-are-illegal-and-some-are-not-wanted/comment-page-1/#comment-227852 roger Wed, 13 Feb 2008 01:56:08 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/12/some-of-us-are-illegal-and-some-are-not-wanted/#comment-227852 I wonder if Arlo Guthrie has even a clue about Ron Paul's racial views. When you blog, especially when you go to political blogs, after a while you become hyper attuned to what the politicians do. But there's good evidence that most people vote on a general impression. For instance, polls in Florida and elsewhere have shown that the Republicans - or those voting in the Republican primary - who are most opposed to the Iraq war are most likely to vote for McCain. Matt Yglesias had a post on this. That makes sense in terms of the impression that is given of the candidates by the press - McCain, who is considered more liberal, more mainstream, would logically be the one who was less gung ho about Iraq. Well, it doesn't turn out to be like that in reality. I would not at all be surprised if Arlo G. saw Ron Paul say various anti-imperialist things in one of the debates and said, hell, that's the ticket. Of course, he's older now, too, than when he penned his great anti-Nixon song, <a href="http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/presidential-rag-lyrics-arlo-guthrie/39a90f52e0eceaff48256c0f000af8d9" rel="nofollow"> presidential rag. </a> I wonder if Arlo Guthrie has even a clue about Ron Paul’s racial views. When you blog, especially when you go to political blogs, after a while you become hyper attuned to what the politicians do. But there’s good evidence that most people vote on a general impression. For instance, polls in Florida and elsewhere have shown that the Republicans – or those voting in the Republican primary – who are most opposed to the Iraq war are most likely to vote for McCain. Matt Yglesias had a post on this. That makes sense in terms of the impression that is given of the candidates by the press – McCain, who is considered more liberal, more mainstream, would logically be the one who was less gung ho about Iraq. Well, it doesn’t turn out to be like that in reality. I would not at all be surprised if Arlo G. saw Ron Paul say various anti-imperialist things in one of the debates and said, hell, that’s the ticket.

Of course, he’s older now, too, than when he penned his great anti-Nixon song, presidential rag.

]]> By: elbujo http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/12/some-of-us-are-illegal-and-some-are-not-wanted/comment-page-1/#comment-227851 elbujo Wed, 13 Feb 2008 01:54:40 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/12/some-of-us-are-illegal-and-some-are-not-wanted/#comment-227851 That marijuana those kids are smoking these days turns their brains to mush. That marijuana those kids are smoking these days turns their brains to mush.

]]> By: Righteous Bubba http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/12/some-of-us-are-illegal-and-some-are-not-wanted/comment-page-1/#comment-227838 Righteous Bubba Tue, 12 Feb 2008 23:48:52 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/12/some-of-us-are-illegal-and-some-are-not-wanted/#comment-227838 <i>Am I missing something here?</i> Yes. Arlo is a lefty folkie endorsing Ron Paul. Am I missing something here?

Yes. Arlo is a lefty folkie endorsing Ron Paul.

]]> By: Matt http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/12/some-of-us-are-illegal-and-some-are-not-wanted/comment-page-1/#comment-227833 Matt Tue, 12 Feb 2008 23:39:36 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/12/some-of-us-are-illegal-and-some-are-not-wanted/#comment-227833 Andrew beat me to it but it's certainly false to say that we "know" that "mass immigration lowers the wages of the poorest Americans, Englishmen, etc and adversely impacts a whole slew of public services." Some fairly contentious studies seem to show a very small effect on a small population. These studies seem to involve some illegitimate methods and when those methods are taken out there is very little, if any effect left. Such effects _may_ happen in certain circumstances, but these are just the circumstances that have tended to greatly reduce immigration flows in the past and likely would do so in the future. It's also worth pointing out that nearly all of those (not all, but nearly all) who make a big deal about immigration (of dark people) supposedly hurting the lease well all never seem to otherwise call for measures that would help the least well off. (This is so of the biggest supporters of this position in the US.) This strongly implies that the real worry is hordes of darkies, not the situation of the least well off. Andrew beat me to it but it’s certainly false to say that we “know” that “mass immigration lowers the wages of the poorest Americans, Englishmen, etc and adversely impacts a whole slew of public services.” Some fairly contentious studies seem to show a very small effect on a small population. These studies seem to involve some illegitimate methods and when those methods are taken out there is very little, if any effect left. Such effects may happen in certain circumstances, but these are just the circumstances that have tended to greatly reduce immigration flows in the past and likely would do so in the future. It’s also worth pointing out that nearly all of those (not all, but nearly all) who make a big deal about immigration (of dark people) supposedly hurting the lease well all never seem to otherwise call for measures that would help the least well off. (This is so of the biggest supporters of this position in the US.) This strongly implies that the real worry is hordes of darkies, not the situation of the least well off.

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