I have no problem with learning about “languages” and “cultures” outside the US, but we still have a great deal to do with learning about the “languages” and “cultures” within the US.

So on those points, I would not call the time and effort enormous, considering that it is also enjoyable, and the returns come much faster that you would think.

The other thing about “lofty and impractical” is that there is learning process itself, (which I think could be what some of those irritating anglos might be trying to get at in their stuttering way), because in natural-language learning there is the combination of rote dog-work practice on the one hand with acquisition of meanings on the other, the same as in learning a musical instrument, and some people find that process remarkable when they notice it.

I do think you’re on to something with the difference between having been educated in Netherlands, say, and the anglo world, so I do think youse have a head start on us in the world.

But I don’t think it is opening a different mindset in any sense, it’s mostly just useful. Therefore my scepticism when Anglos want to learn foreign languages for lofty, impractical reasons. The time and effort required until you understand a book BETTER in the original than in translation is enormous, and probably not worth it unless you have other, more direct reasons to learn the language.

But naturally I’m with Mikhail on “the larger question”, plus I think there’s a balance that needs to be redressed (to say the least).

Btw, I guess in the opposite case to the one you describe, the comparable advice to try one of the easier languages, might not work as well. In those cases, access to the alien mindset I think is a little different, but I will not bore you.

True, but you still have to get the code compiled… These are the immutable rules. Language doesn’t have these. I can screw around with grammar to a very large extent before comprehensible stop I be. :) The “dialects” mentioned before are simply slightly different sets of equally hard rules. It doesn’t bear on the question of difference between natural and artificial languages. Even languages like Esperanto, while constructed to be “like” a natural language, aren’t and do not behave and develop like real ones.

The larger question as some of you rightly pointed out is the reasons for why you’d learn one over the other. But it shouldn’t be phrased in terms of “languages”. It should be – would you rather learn about cultures, literature, history and psychology of the peoples in the world or would you rather study logic, electronics, math and algorithms. There are many ways of doing this, and learning one language or another is by far not the only or main way forward. :)

So, it’s a bit of hobby-horse of mine to suggest to them to learn a simple computer language, because programming seems to require exactly the mindset that is so alien to them. Sometimes people are intrigued by the idea, but even then it gets a sort of ‘Read the Gilgamesh in the original’- unreachable status. Which simply isn’t necessary

I’m not convinced. There are tons of clunky or ingenuous hacks and workarounds in a large percentage of code, there are often lots of different ways of arriving at the same solution. Sure, there are some basics you have to obey, but I don’t see how they differ that much from the basics of natural languages.

I think they are hard to learn when you’re older than 16-17 or so, and incredibly hard if you’re older than 35 or so. Unless, of course, you have a special talent for languages.

“But learning Chinese well enough to read classical Chinese texts and see the subtleties and double-meanings is not the equivalent of learning a programming language, but perhaps closer to a PhD in computer science.”

I’d think it’s more like learning a programming language (say, C) to the point where one effectively knows all the nooks and crannies of the C99 standard like the back of his hand, and is able to write obfuscated programs without batting an eyelid. (A PhD in CS, I think, is a whole other thing.

So I guess there’s a sort of hierarchy here similar to the learning of natural languages: Learning the basics of C is like a random African villager learning a few words and basic grammar; learning enough C to write complex programs is like learning enough English to converse in the colloquial register; and learning C to the point of complete mastery is like being able to fully comprehend—and emulate—Shakespeare’s and Tolkien’s “non-standard” English.

Not that this says anything about “expanding one’s horizons”, though…

= = =

Mikhail: Well, to further confuse the issue, programming languages also have “dialects”…

My personal view: If you only speak your mother tongue, choose to learn another language, if only to see how languages are similar or different.
But after that I wouldn’t necessesarily learn another language unless you expect to really use it. If ‘broadening your mind’ is your goal, learning to program a computer probably gives you more broadening for the efort it takes than learning a third language.