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	<title>Comments on: The price of Starbucks</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/21/the-price-of-starbucks/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Martin O'Neill</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/21/the-price-of-starbucks/comment-page-1/#comment-229860</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin O'Neill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2008 22:20:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/21/the-price-of-starbucks/#comment-229860</guid>
		<description>Dan: it&#039;s not spreading any kind of stereotype, negative or otherwise, and nor is it &#039;culturally insensitive&#039;, to suggest that impoverished coffee growers will seek other sources of income when they cannot make a viable living from growing coffee.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Dan: it&#8217;s not spreading any kind of stereotype, negative or otherwise, and nor is it &#8216;culturally insensitive&#8217;, to suggest that impoverished coffee growers will seek other sources of income when they cannot make a viable living from growing coffee.</p>
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		<title>By: dan k</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/21/the-price-of-starbucks/comment-page-1/#comment-229696</link>
		<dc:creator>dan k</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Feb 2008 23:59:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/21/the-price-of-starbucks/#comment-229696</guid>
		<description>Not confused, just wondering why we can&#039;t have a bit more culturally sensitivy when spreading negative stereotypes about farmers in the developing world (99.9% of whom will never be involved in the production of illicit materials).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Not confused, just wondering why we can&#8217;t have a bit more culturally sensitivy when spreading negative stereotypes about farmers in the developing world (99.9% of whom will never be involved in the production of illicit materials).</p>
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		<title>By: Martin O'Neill</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/21/the-price-of-starbucks/comment-page-1/#comment-229631</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin O'Neill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Feb 2008 16:40:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/21/the-price-of-starbucks/#comment-229631</guid>
		<description>Dan: I fail to see the source of your confusion. Coca leaves are, of course, a traditional crop in the Andes, but they&#039;re also used to make cocaine. 

As the possibility of making a good living from growing coffee beans recedes, many farmers have increased their production of coca leaves instead. These leaves are then used to make cocaine. 

Of course, the farmers don&#039;t themselves produce the end-product (no more than they produce your Starbucks venti mocha), but they do produce the raw material from which the end product is made.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Dan: I fail to see the source of your confusion. Coca leaves are, of course, a traditional crop in the Andes, but they&#8217;re also used to make cocaine.</p>

	<p>As the possibility of making a good living from growing coffee beans recedes, many farmers have increased their production of coca leaves instead. These leaves are then used to make cocaine.</p>

	<p>Of course, the farmers don&#8217;t themselves produce the end-product (no more than they produce your Starbucks venti mocha), but they do produce the raw material from which the end product is made.</p>
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		<title>By: dan k</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/21/the-price-of-starbucks/comment-page-1/#comment-229603</link>
		<dc:creator>dan k</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Feb 2008 00:45:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/21/the-price-of-starbucks/#comment-229603</guid>
		<description>Martin: can you please explain how coffee growers &quot;diversify&quot; into producing cocaine?

Coca (but not cocaine) has been grown and used in the Andes for a looooooong time.  Hard to see too many coffee growers getting into the cocaine production side of things and a pretty insensitive juxtaposition...

[/posted from Starbucks in Lima, Peru.  Definitely an aspirational brand here.  Definitely a better cup of coffee than nescafe (Crystal&#039;s point).  Starbucks in Peru also has free wireless -- a distinct improvement on the American version.]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Martin: can you please explain how coffee growers &#8220;diversify&#8221; into producing cocaine?</p>

	<p>Coca (but not cocaine) has been grown and used in the Andes for a looooooong time.  Hard to see too many coffee growers getting into the cocaine production side of things and a pretty insensitive juxtaposition&#8230;</p>

	<p>[/posted from Starbucks in Lima, Peru.  Definitely an aspirational brand here.  Definitely a better cup of coffee than nescafe (Crystal&#8217;s point).  Starbucks in Peru also has free wireless&#8212;a distinct improvement on the American version.]</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/21/the-price-of-starbucks/comment-page-1/#comment-229522</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Feb 2008 15:02:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/21/the-price-of-starbucks/#comment-229522</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t understand why wouldn&#039;t every friggin pizzeria in the US (and every friggin restaurant in Beijing, for that matter) buy a friggin coffee machine for $500 and make some friggin coffee. It&#039;s so easy. I see absolutely no need for special companies specializing in coffee retailing. Though I like their tchai.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I don&#8217;t understand why wouldn&#8217;t every friggin pizzeria in the <span class="caps">US </span>(and every friggin restaurant in Beijing, for that matter) buy a friggin coffee machine for $500 and make some friggin coffee. It&#8217;s so easy. I see absolutely no need for special companies specializing in coffee retailing. Though I like their tchai.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Brown</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/21/the-price-of-starbucks/comment-page-1/#comment-229518</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Feb 2008 09:04:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/21/the-price-of-starbucks/#comment-229518</guid>
		<description>Starbucks has had the effect of improving the competition. You can get better coffee more easily elsewhere because it exists. But at least here in North Essex, their expresso is undrinkable: thin and sour; and I have rather grown out of milk shake. The best chain in Britain in Cafe Ner[od] but there is plenty of good Italian made coffee available in London, even in the tourist parts. There is for instance a very good Italian expresso/sandwich bar right behind Tower records off Picadilly Circus.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Starbucks has had the effect of improving the competition. You can get better coffee more easily elsewhere because it exists. But at least here in North Essex, their expresso is undrinkable: thin and sour; and I have rather grown out of milk shake. The best chain in Britain in Cafe Ner[od] but there is plenty of good Italian made coffee available in London, even in the tourist parts. There is for instance a very good Italian expresso/sandwich bar right behind Tower records off Picadilly Circus.</p>
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		<title>By: cure</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/21/the-price-of-starbucks/comment-page-1/#comment-229424</link>
		<dc:creator>cure</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 19:07:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/21/the-price-of-starbucks/#comment-229424</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s an academic article from the mid-1990s on McDonalds in China, the title of which I&#039;ve long forgotten.  In any case, while McDonalds popularity there is partly driven by it being a bit of a status symbol (you still see dates in there from time to time), I think its more that McD has a much higher standard of food safety than local restaurants (and they play this up incessantly), and it offers a style of food that&#039;s otherwise unknown in China.  Imagine if the only Asian food in the US was Panda Express - we&#039;d still go there, much to the surprise of Asian visitors, right?  

To be honest, though, KFC has always been much, much more popular in China than McDonalds.  A taste for fried chicken is universal.

(I&#039;ll also note that McD is China isn&#039;t expensive by Western standards - it was $2.50 US for a value meal last time I was there.  The portions are also a bit smaller than in the US, the workers almost all have some college and get paid twice what a local restaurant worker would make, and the menu is filled with non-American items like the &quot;triangle wrap&quot;.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>There&#8217;s an academic article from the mid-1990s on McDonalds in China, the title of which I&#8217;ve long forgotten.  In any case, while McDonalds popularity there is partly driven by it being a bit of a status symbol (you still see dates in there from time to time), I think its more that McD has a much higher standard of food safety than local restaurants (and they play this up incessantly), and it offers a style of food that&#8217;s otherwise unknown in China.  Imagine if the only Asian food in the US was Panda Express &#8211; we&#8217;d still go there, much to the surprise of Asian visitors, right?</p>

	<p>To be honest, though, <span class="caps">KFC</span> has always been much, much more popular in China than McDonalds.  A taste for fried chicken is universal.</p>

	<p>(I&#8217;ll also note that McD is China isn&#8217;t expensive by Western standards &#8211; it was $2.50 US for a value meal last time I was there.  The portions are also a bit smaller than in the US, the workers almost all have some college and get paid twice what a local restaurant worker would make, and the menu is filled with non-American items like the &#8220;triangle wrap&#8221;.)</p>
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		<title>By: Katherine</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/21/the-price-of-starbucks/comment-page-1/#comment-229422</link>
		<dc:creator>Katherine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 19:07:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/21/the-price-of-starbucks/#comment-229422</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt; In London in 1994, I would have hacked my way through 15 dodgy geezers with a comb to get to a decent coffee, but sadly there was no Starbucks at that time. I know Australians who have become converts to Starbucks after a month in London. &lt;/i&gt;

In a similar vein to John B, I suggest you weren&#039;t looking closely enough.  Apart from Costa and Caffe Nero, there have always been numerous coffee/lunchtime sandwich places doing decent coffee (I&#039;m told - not a coffee drinker myself).  

But here&#039;s something no one has touched on yet - the tea in Starbucks is &lt;i&gt; disgusting &lt;/i&gt;.  I have to deal with it weekly on Tuesdays because their comfty sofas and friendly mother-and-baby-group atmosphere.  For gawdsake though, I wish they&#039;d just buy some bog standard tea bags instead of pushing that Tazo crap.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i> In London in 1994, I would have hacked my way through 15 dodgy geezers with a comb to get to a decent coffee, but sadly there was no Starbucks at that time. I know Australians who have become converts to Starbucks after a month in London. </i></p>

	<p>In a similar vein to John B, I suggest you weren&#8217;t looking closely enough.  Apart from Costa and Caffe Nero, there have always been numerous coffee/lunchtime sandwich places doing decent coffee (I&#8217;m told &#8211; not a coffee drinker myself).</p>

	<p>But here&#8217;s something no one has touched on yet &#8211; the tea in Starbucks is <i> disgusting </i>.  I have to deal with it weekly on Tuesdays because their comfty sofas and friendly mother-and-baby-group atmosphere.  For gawdsake though, I wish they&#8217;d just buy some bog standard tea bags instead of pushing that Tazo crap.</p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/21/the-price-of-starbucks/comment-page-1/#comment-229403</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 17:22:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/21/the-price-of-starbucks/#comment-229403</guid>
		<description>SG: In 1983 there were many coffeehouses in Taipei serving coffee much better than Starbucks&#039;. For a variety of reasons I had assumed that these coffeehouses were Japanese in inspiration, but based on what you say, maybe not. 

My brother runs a non-Starbucks coffeehouse now (Bipartisan Cafe, 79th and SE Stark, Portland, OR, USA,  a Stumptown affiliate, be sure to go there!) but spent ten years at Starbucks. He believes that Starbucks coffee is superior to a lot of the independent-coffeehouse coffee because a lot of the independents aren&#039;t really coffee buffs and put out an inconsistent product. (But Stumptown is best of all.)

Starbucks management is superefficient in ways that are both good and bad. Management training sessions are cultish and creepy, and Starbucks  basically has an &quot;up or out&quot; philosophy for managers, but they treat the low-level employees better than almost anyone does. It&#039;s been a long time since their money was made mostly on coffee and pastries; I think that most of their profit comes from coffeemakers and other merchandise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>SG: In 1983 there were many coffeehouses in Taipei serving coffee much better than Starbucks&#8217;. For a variety of reasons I had assumed that these coffeehouses were Japanese in inspiration, but based on what you say, maybe not.</p>

	<p>My brother runs a non-Starbucks coffeehouse now (Bipartisan Cafe, 79th and <span class="caps">SE </span>Stark, Portland, OR, <span class="caps">USA</span>,  a Stumptown affiliate, be sure to go there!) but spent ten years at Starbucks. He believes that Starbucks coffee is superior to a lot of the independent-coffeehouse coffee because a lot of the independents aren&#8217;t really coffee buffs and put out an inconsistent product. (But Stumptown is best of all.)</p>

	<p>Starbucks management is superefficient in ways that are both good and bad. Management training sessions are cultish and creepy, and Starbucks  basically has an &#8220;up or out&#8221; philosophy for managers, but they treat the low-level employees better than almost anyone does. It&#8217;s been a long time since their money was made mostly on coffee and pastries; I think that most of their profit comes from coffeemakers and other merchandise.</p>
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		<title>By: mds</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/21/the-price-of-starbucks/comment-page-1/#comment-229387</link>
		<dc:creator>mds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 15:40:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/21/the-price-of-starbucks/#comment-229387</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;but was closed last year because of it was undermining solemnity&lt;/em&gt;

That&#039;s a weird coincidence; I once got thrown out of a Starbucks for the same reason.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><em>but was closed last year because of it was undermining solemnity</em></p>

	<p>That&#8217;s a weird coincidence; I once got thrown out of a Starbucks for the same reason.</p>
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		<title>By: stet</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/21/the-price-of-starbucks/comment-page-1/#comment-229382</link>
		<dc:creator>stet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 15:15:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/21/the-price-of-starbucks/#comment-229382</guid>
		<description>@5, @10, @11

There was indeed a small and iconoclastic Starbucks inside the Imperial Palace in Beijing, but was closed last year because of it was undermining solemnity:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6898629.stm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>@5, @10, @11</p>

	<p>There was indeed a small and iconoclastic Starbucks inside the Imperial Palace in Beijing, but was closed last year because of it was undermining solemnity:<br />
<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6898629.stm" rel="nofollow">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6898629.stm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Tom T.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/21/the-price-of-starbucks/comment-page-1/#comment-229375</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom T.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 14:03:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/21/the-price-of-starbucks/#comment-229375</guid>
		<description>Isn&#039;t this an old story?  Levi&#039;s created &quot;vulgarized&quot; but serviceable clothing, which took on a cachet such that many people in foreign countries bought them, probably in some instances even at higher prices than local garb.  Disney and Jerry Bruckheimer packaged &quot;vulgarized&quot; entertainment that has found success in world markets.  

And just as Starbuck&#039;s coffee is not what one might find in Milan, American (and Japanese) pizza is not what one would find in Naples, and American bagels are not what one would have found on the Lower East Side in 1920.  It suits us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Isn&#8217;t this an old story?  Levi&#8217;s created &#8220;vulgarized&#8221; but serviceable clothing, which took on a cachet such that many people in foreign countries bought them, probably in some instances even at higher prices than local garb.  Disney and Jerry Bruckheimer packaged &#8220;vulgarized&#8221; entertainment that has found success in world markets.</p>

	<p>And just as Starbuck&#8217;s coffee is not what one might find in Milan, American (and Japanese) pizza is not what one would find in Naples, and American bagels are not what one would have found on the Lower East Side in 1920.  It suits us.</p>
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		<title>By: Great Zamfir</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/21/the-price-of-starbucks/comment-page-1/#comment-229372</link>
		<dc:creator>Great Zamfir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 13:17:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Alex, the amazing thing is not that there are Starbucks&#039;s in China. What is strange is that they sell their products at similar or even higher prices than in the West, and still do good business. At Chinese labor costs, Starbucks must be able to offer their products at a fraction of their western prices, but apparently they don&#039;t have to. Going to a Starbucks is pretty much a show of wealth on the order of driving a Mercedes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Alex, the amazing thing is not that there are Starbucks&#8217;s in China. What is strange is that they sell their products at similar or even higher prices than in the West, and still do good business. At Chinese labor costs, Starbucks must be able to offer their products at a fraction of their western prices, but apparently they don&#8217;t have to. Going to a Starbucks is pretty much a show of wealth on the order of driving a Mercedes.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin O'Neill</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/21/the-price-of-starbucks/comment-page-1/#comment-229371</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin O'Neill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 13:14:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>@23.
cw: that was certainly more or less the impression I had of Howard Schultz from reading about him. Any good stories about how his character manifested itself?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>@23.<br />
cw: that was certainly more or less the impression I had of Howard Schultz from reading about him. Any good stories about how his character manifested itself?</p>
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		<title>By: Martin O'Neill</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/21/the-price-of-starbucks/comment-page-1/#comment-229370</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin O'Neill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 13:13:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>@20.
Thanks, John. I don&#039;t think we disagree, not least on the point that you *can* get a decent espresso (without flavoured milk) at Starbucks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>@20.<br />
Thanks, John. I don&#8217;t think we disagree, not least on the point that you <strong>can</strong> get a decent espresso (without flavoured milk) at Starbucks.</p>
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