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	<title>Comments on: The Kosovo (non-)precedent</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/26/the-kosovo-non-precedent/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/26/the-kosovo-non-precedent/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Crooked Timber &#187; &#187; Russell Arben Fox on state-building, democracy and ethnicity</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/26/the-kosovo-non-precedent/comment-page-4/#comment-231389</link>
		<dc:creator>Crooked Timber &#187; &#187; Russell Arben Fox on state-building, democracy and ethnicity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Mar 2008 11:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/26/the-kosovo-non-precedent/#comment-231389</guid>
		<description>[...] has a very rich post up discussing some of the questions I raised in two posts recently concerning self-determination, democracy, ethnicity and matters related. I&#8217;m a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] has a very rich post up discussing some of the questions I raised in two posts recently concerning self-determination, democracy, ethnicity and matters related. I&#8217;m a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: LogicGuru</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/26/the-kosovo-non-precedent/comment-page-3/#comment-230518</link>
		<dc:creator>LogicGuru</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Mar 2008 16:02:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/26/the-kosovo-non-precedent/#comment-230518</guid>
		<description>Multiculturalism at work. As long as ethnicity, defined by bloodlines, is taken seriously there will be ethnic cleansing. As long as ethnicity is taken seriously people will know that they can&#039;t enjoy first-class citizenship, or be safe, in countries where they&#039;re in a minority.

Pragmatically, because most of the worlds population is tribal ethnic minorities have to be accommodated somehow in the short run. But in the long run ideally, since the world is organized politically on the basis of geographical nation-states the solution is to promote assimilation and form thick national identities for  individuals regardless of blood kinship, including immigrants.

This doesn&#039;t mean promoting some generic cosmopolitanism--there will always be local loyalties and special interest groups but encouraging the formation of more porous pseudo-ethnic identities that track geopolitical lines more closely and are, at least to some extent, voluntary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Multiculturalism at work. As long as ethnicity, defined by bloodlines, is taken seriously there will be ethnic cleansing. As long as ethnicity is taken seriously people will know that they can&#8217;t enjoy first-class citizenship, or be safe, in countries where they&#8217;re in a minority.</p>

	<p>Pragmatically, because most of the worlds population is tribal ethnic minorities have to be accommodated somehow in the short run. But in the long run ideally, since the world is organized politically on the basis of geographical nation-states the solution is to promote assimilation and form thick national identities for  individuals regardless of blood kinship, including immigrants.</p>

	<p>This doesn&#8217;t mean promoting some generic cosmopolitanism&#8212;there will always be local loyalties and special interest groups but encouraging the formation of more porous pseudo-ethnic identities that track geopolitical lines more closely and are, at least to some extent, voluntary.</p>
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		<title>By: lurker</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/26/the-kosovo-non-precedent/comment-page-3/#comment-230304</link>
		<dc:creator>lurker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 08:17:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/26/the-kosovo-non-precedent/#comment-230304</guid>
		<description>Rather late, but here&#039;s some nationalist trolling:
Dan Kerwick in 107 writes of &quot;an unjustified prejudice for the political communities of the past rather than the political communities of the present&quot;. 
Quite often there is no political community at present – what community do the Serbs and the Albanians have in common? You can&#039;t create by fiat communities out of people who do not want any such community, that leads to lunacies like the suggested one-state solution to Israel/Palestine – a state that only foreign liberals who do not have to live there want. People have to want the community to work or it won&#039;t, and that means mainly the people who&#039;d be a part of the hypothetical community, not well meaning liberal imperialist outsiders.
Anti-nationalist Liberals seem to give a free pass to the nationalists who got their nationalism in first and already have national states. They put the burden of proof on e.g. the Tibetans to prove that the Chinese central government will always screw them if it serves Chinese interests rather than vice versa. One commenter here (post 83) apparently thinks that the Irish Civil war (2-3000 dead) should count for more in assessing the desirability of an independent Ireland than the way the government of the United Kingdom twiddled its thumbs as millions starved to death. Marginal, no-account people have every reason in the world to want a government of their own and to distrust any government dominated by others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Rather late, but here&#8217;s some nationalist trolling:<br />
Dan Kerwick in 107 writes of &#8220;an unjustified prejudice for the political communities of the past rather than the political communities of the present&#8221;.<br />
Quite often there is no political community at present &#8211; what community do the Serbs and the Albanians have in common? You can&#8217;t create by fiat communities out of people who do not want any such community, that leads to lunacies like the suggested one-state solution to Israel/Palestine &#8211; a state that only foreign liberals who do not have to live there want. People have to want the community to work or it won&#8217;t, and that means mainly the people who&#8217;d be a part of the hypothetical community, not well meaning liberal imperialist outsiders.<br />
Anti-nationalist Liberals seem to give a free pass to the nationalists who got their nationalism in first and already have national states. They put the burden of proof on e.g. the Tibetans to prove that the Chinese central government will always screw them if it serves Chinese interests rather than vice versa. One commenter here (post 83) apparently thinks that the Irish Civil war (2-3000 dead) should count for more in assessing the desirability of an independent Ireland than the way the government of the United Kingdom twiddled its thumbs as millions starved to death. Marginal, no-account people have every reason in the world to want a government of their own and to distrust any government dominated by others.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/26/the-kosovo-non-precedent/comment-page-3/#comment-230170</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 16:10:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/26/the-kosovo-non-precedent/#comment-230170</guid>
		<description>He was, he was. But so was the Franco-British entente when they were attacked in 1940 after betting on Hitler to go East (the &#039;phoney war&#039;, remember?).  

Nothing remarkable in what Stalin did there; it was a very simple game - to pit Hitler against the other side and let them bleed - and in the end they all lost. But it has nothing to do with anything here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>He was, he was. But so was the Franco-British entente when they were attacked in 1940 after betting on Hitler to go East (the &#8216;phoney war&#8217;, remember?).</p>

	<p>Nothing remarkable in what Stalin did there; it was a very simple game &#8211; to pit Hitler against the other side and let them bleed &#8211; and in the end they all lost. But it has nothing to do with anything here.</p>
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		<title>By: novakant</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/26/the-kosovo-non-precedent/comment-page-3/#comment-230169</link>
		<dc:creator>novakant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 15:51:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/26/the-kosovo-non-precedent/#comment-230169</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;What nonsense, Ajay.&lt;/i&gt;

Not nonsense at all. Almost everybody agrees that Stalin was caught with his pants down and that the SU military was in a terrible state. 

&lt;i&gt;because it wasn’t worthy of an answer.&lt;/i&gt;

Why? I thought he made a perfectly reasonable point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>What nonsense, Ajay.</i></p>

	<p>Not nonsense at all. Almost everybody agrees that Stalin was caught with his pants down and that the SU military was in a terrible state.</p>

	<p><i>because it wasn&#8217;t worthy of an answer.</i></p>

	<p>Why? I thought he made a perfectly reasonable point.</p>
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		<title>By: seth edenbaum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/26/the-kosovo-non-precedent/comment-page-3/#comment-230167</link>
		<dc:creator>seth edenbaum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 15:29:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/26/the-kosovo-non-precedent/#comment-230167</guid>
		<description>&quot;#21 has gone unanswered... because it wasn’t worthy of an answer.&quot;
And the US government that claimed in horror that 500,000 Kosovar&#039;s had been killed,  claimed in relief that only 40,000 Iraqi&#039;s have been; and of course there&#039;s always Albright and the Sanctions.  We imagine our government is reinvented every 4 or 8 years; the rest of the world sees mostly continuity. Who&#039;s the better judge?
CB, your moral clarity in Kosovo is mirrored in your moral clarity on Palestine. That clarity is what results in language like that I quoted in #135</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;#21 has gone unanswered&#8230; because it wasn&#8217;t worthy of an answer.&#8221;<br />
And the US government that claimed in horror that 500,000 Kosovar&#8217;s had been killed,  claimed in relief that only 40,000 Iraqi&#8217;s have been; and of course there&#8217;s always Albright and the Sanctions.  We imagine our government is reinvented every 4 or 8 years; the rest of the world sees mostly continuity. Who&#8217;s the better judge?<br />
CB, your moral clarity in Kosovo is mirrored in your moral clarity on Palestine. That clarity is what results in language like that I quoted in #135</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/26/the-kosovo-non-precedent/comment-page-3/#comment-230149</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 11:11:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/26/the-kosovo-non-precedent/#comment-230149</guid>
		<description>What nonsense, Ajay. Everybody is a great strategist 60 years after. What about the Maginot Line? 

Everything is a gamble, maybe (probably) Stalin expected Germany to invade the British Isles and planned to attack Germany himself at that time. If that had happened, would it then validate his strategy as brilliant? Nobody knows the future.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>What nonsense, Ajay. Everybody is a great strategist 60 years after. What about the Maginot Line?</p>

	<p>Everything is a gamble, maybe (probably) Stalin expected Germany to invade the British Isles and planned to attack Germany himself at that time. If that had happened, would it then validate his strategy as brilliant? Nobody knows the future.</p>
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		<title>By: ajay</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/26/the-kosovo-non-precedent/comment-page-3/#comment-230148</link>
		<dc:creator>ajay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 10:42:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/26/the-kosovo-non-precedent/#comment-230148</guid>
		<description>141: exactly. Occupying Poland abolished the buffer, it didn&#039;t create one. Coupled with Stalin&#039;s idiotic strategy, that almost lost Russia the war: in the first five weeks of Barbarossa, &lt;i&gt;two million&lt;/i&gt; Soviet soldiers went into the German POW cages, and 90% of the Red air force was destroyed. This was made possible because the Wehrmacht start line was the Soviet border, with much of the Red Army massed along it ready for encirclement. If the Wehrmacht had started at the pre-1939 Polish border, they would have had another three hundred miles or so to advance, and two major rivers (the Vistula and the Neisse) to cross - territory that they took four to five weeks to take in 1939, even with Soviet help. 

How much better could the Red Army have done with four weeks&#039; warning of the invasion, rather than four hours?

But to the Russians, Stalin&#039;s still a hero. Which, in a way, answers the question above about why the West is still apparently so determined to constrain Russia - because they&#039;re bloody dangerous, that&#039;s why.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>141: exactly. Occupying Poland abolished the buffer, it didn&#8217;t create one. Coupled with Stalin&#8217;s idiotic strategy, that almost lost Russia the war: in the first five weeks of Barbarossa, <i>two million</i> Soviet soldiers went into the German <span class="caps">POW</span> cages, and 90% of the Red air force was destroyed. This was made possible because the Wehrmacht start line was the Soviet border, with much of the Red Army massed along it ready for encirclement. If the Wehrmacht had started at the pre-1939 Polish border, they would have had another three hundred miles or so to advance, and two major rivers (the Vistula and the Neisse) to cross &#8211; territory that they took four to five weeks to take in 1939, even with Soviet help.</p>

	<p>How much better could the Red Army have done with four weeks&#8217; warning of the invasion, rather than four hours?</p>

	<p>But to the Russians, Stalin&#8217;s still a hero. Which, in a way, answers the question above about why the West is still apparently so determined to constrain Russia &#8211; because they&#8217;re bloody dangerous, that&#8217;s why.</p>
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		<title>By: notsneaky</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/26/the-kosovo-non-precedent/comment-page-3/#comment-230146</link>
		<dc:creator>notsneaky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 09:56:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/26/the-kosovo-non-precedent/#comment-230146</guid>
		<description>Yeah, it was sorta despicable of him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Yeah, it was sorta despicable of him.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/26/the-kosovo-non-precedent/comment-page-3/#comment-230143</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 09:04:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/26/the-kosovo-non-precedent/#comment-230143</guid>
		<description>Fair enough. 

Though the political philosophy (or whatever the discipline is) issue being discussed here is hardly relevant to Europe circa 1939. I dunno, it just seems silly to bring it up; you know, like: was it despicable for Genghis Khan to invade China?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Fair enough.</p>

	<p>Though the political philosophy (or whatever the discipline is) issue being discussed here is hardly relevant to Europe circa 1939. I dunno, it just seems silly to bring it up; you know, like: was it despicable for Genghis Khan to invade China?</p>
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		<title>By: notsneaky</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/26/the-kosovo-non-precedent/comment-page-3/#comment-230142</link>
		<dc:creator>notsneaky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:58:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/26/the-kosovo-non-precedent/#comment-230142</guid>
		<description>And just to put the whole &quot;SU needed a buffer&quot; argument to rest: before Sept 1939 Poland would&#039;ve made a perfectly good buffer for the SU against Germany. All Stalin had to do was offer an alliance to Poland on non-ridiculous terms (like not demanding that Soviet troops be allowed to occupy Polish territory). An independent Ukraine would&#039;ve made a good buffer against Germany for the SU. Of course neither of these was in the cards because, in 1939, Stalin wasn&#039;t thinking &quot;buffer&quot; (granted, maybe that was Stalin&#039;s thinking in say 1943 and afterwards), he was thinking &quot;territory&quot;. If anything the Ribbentrop-Molotov in this way brought the Werchmacht closer to Soviet borders.

And the whole &quot;buffer&quot; argument is pretty much admitting that the whole thing was bunk. Suppose for a crazy second that the Guatemalans got crazy and US started to worry about them and said &quot;ok, look Mexico, we&#039;re worried about the Guatemalans so we&#039;ll just take half your country as a &quot;buffer&quot;&quot;. Now maybe the US fears of the crazy Guatemalans would be justified. But why should they get a buffer at Mexico&#039;s expense?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>And just to put the whole &#8220;SU needed a buffer&#8221; argument to rest: before Sept 1939 Poland would&#8217;ve made a perfectly good buffer for the SU against Germany. All Stalin had to do was offer an alliance to Poland on non-ridiculous terms (like not demanding that Soviet troops be allowed to occupy Polish territory). An independent Ukraine would&#8217;ve made a good buffer against Germany for the SU. Of course neither of these was in the cards because, in 1939, Stalin wasn&#8217;t thinking &#8220;buffer&#8221; (granted, maybe that was Stalin&#8217;s thinking in say 1943 and afterwards), he was thinking &#8220;territory&#8221;. If anything the Ribbentrop-Molotov in this way brought the Werchmacht closer to Soviet borders.</p>

	<p>And the whole &#8220;buffer&#8221; argument is pretty much admitting that the whole thing was bunk. Suppose for a crazy second that the Guatemalans got crazy and US started to worry about them and said &#8220;ok, look Mexico, we&#8217;re worried about the Guatemalans so we&#8217;ll just take half your country as a &#8220;buffer&#8221;&#8220;. Now maybe the US fears of the crazy Guatemalans would be justified. But why should they get a buffer at Mexico&#8217;s expense?</p>
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		<title>By: notsneaky</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/26/the-kosovo-non-precedent/comment-page-3/#comment-230140</link>
		<dc:creator>notsneaky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:44:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/26/the-kosovo-non-precedent/#comment-230140</guid>
		<description>Uhhh... yes. But some of the &quot;collaboration&quot; was of the &quot;leave us alone&quot; kind, and some of it was &quot;leave other people alone&quot; kind and then there was &quot;would you like to join us in on this gang rape?&quot; kind.

If you&#039;re gonna call everything that states do &quot;politics&quot; - as long as they&#039;re acting roughly in their own self interest - then what&#039;s the point of this discussion? You can look after your own interest and do so in ways that aren&#039;t despicable, and then, you can look after your own self interest in ways that trample on others. It&#039;s silly to pretend the two are in the same category.

(and yes, yes, yes, it&#039;s not a black or white sort of thing)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Uhhh&#8230; yes. But some of the &#8220;collaboration&#8221; was of the &#8220;leave us alone&#8221; kind, and some of it was &#8220;leave other people alone&#8221; kind and then there was &#8220;would you like to join us in on this gang rape?&#8221; kind.</p>

	<p>If you&#8217;re gonna call everything that states do &#8220;politics&#8221; &#8211; as long as they&#8217;re acting roughly in their own self interest &#8211; then what&#8217;s the point of this discussion? You can look after your own interest and do so in ways that aren&#8217;t despicable, and then, you can look after your own self interest in ways that trample on others. It&#8217;s silly to pretend the two are in the same category.</p>

	<p>(and yes, yes, yes, it&#8217;s not a black or white sort of thing)</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/26/the-kosovo-non-precedent/comment-page-3/#comment-230139</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:27:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/26/the-kosovo-non-precedent/#comment-230139</guid>
		<description>134 &lt;i&gt;This whole, patently ridiculous attempt at white washing Stalin...&lt;/i&gt;

To avoid the whitewashing altogether, one could note that everybody collaborated with the Nazis: the UK, the US, France, Switzerland, the Soviet Union, Zionists, probably Poland too. They all were trying to manipulate the Nazis to their advantage: get them to move East, to move West, to get their money, to expel Jews to Palestine, etc. If there was some political entity in Europe that didn&#039;t collaborate with the Nazis, that&#039;s only because they couldn&#039;t find a way. 

That&#039;s called &#039;politics&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>134 <i>This whole, patently ridiculous attempt at white washing Stalin&#8230;</i></p>

	<p>To avoid the whitewashing altogether, one could note that everybody collaborated with the Nazis: the UK, the US, France, Switzerland, the Soviet Union, Zionists, probably Poland too. They all were trying to manipulate the Nazis to their advantage: get them to move East, to move West, to get their money, to expel Jews to Palestine, etc. If there was some political entity in Europe that didn&#8217;t collaborate with the Nazis, that&#8217;s only because they couldn&#8217;t find a way.</p>

	<p>That&#8217;s called &#8216;politics&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Bertram</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/26/the-kosovo-non-precedent/comment-page-3/#comment-230137</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Bertram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:04:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/26/the-kosovo-non-precedent/#comment-230137</guid>
		<description>_#21 has gone unanswered_

Because it wasn&#039;t worthy of an answer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><em>#21 has gone unanswered</em></p>

	<p>Because it wasn&#8217;t worthy of an answer.</p>
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		<title>By: virgil xenophon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/26/the-kosovo-non-precedent/comment-page-3/#comment-230128</link>
		<dc:creator>virgil xenophon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 04:22:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/26/the-kosovo-non-precedent/#comment-230128</guid>
		<description>Not too long ago a British Under-secretary of &quot;something&quot; (I don&#039;t remember what) in the Foreign
Office commented that the main obstacle to any kind of settled &quot;peaceful arrangement&quot; in the Balkans is the fact that all sides (a minimum of three, often up to seven when Russia, Greece, Albania, et al, are                                involved) always bring their own set of history books and maps to the table. The discussion here only seems to underscore that observation.

My personal point of view is that both the Balkans
&quot;problem&quot; and the Palestinian &quot;problem&quot; are due to
all parties involved ignoring a basic law of Physics, i.e., two bodies cannot simultaneously
occupy the same point in time and space. But of course, they intuitatively full well realize
such things without a PhD in particle physics--hence all plans A-Z inevitably fall back on the &quot;God is on the side of the bigger battalions&quot; theorem. A theorem that has stood the test of time at least as well as anything Newton or Einstein managed to conger up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Not too long ago a British Under-secretary of &#8220;something&#8221; (I don&#8217;t remember what) in the Foreign<br />
Office commented that the main obstacle to any kind of settled &#8220;peaceful arrangement&#8221; in the Balkans is the fact that all sides (a minimum of three, often up to seven when Russia, Greece, Albania, et al, are                                involved) always bring their own set of history books and maps to the table. The discussion here only seems to underscore that observation.</p>

	<p>My personal point of view is that both the Balkans<br />
&#8220;problem&#8221; and the Palestinian &#8220;problem&#8221; are due to<br />
all parties involved ignoring a basic law of Physics, i.e., two bodies cannot simultaneously<br />
occupy the same point in time and space. But of course, they intuitatively full well realize<br />
such things without a PhD in particle physics&#8212;hence all plans A-Z inevitably fall back on the &#8220;God is on the side of the bigger battalions&#8221; theorem. A theorem that has stood the test of time at least as well as anything Newton or Einstein managed to conger up.</p>
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