Comments on: Kosovo and the dark side of democracy http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/29/kosovo-and-the-dark-side-of-democracy/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sun, 21 Mar 2010 21:56:43 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Chris Bertram http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/29/kosovo-and-the-dark-side-of-democracy/comment-page-4/#comment-230629 Chris Bertram Sun, 02 Mar 2008 08:39:25 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/29/kosovo-and-the-dark-side-of-democracy/#comment-230629 OK, I'm going to close the thread. "Blog", please don't bother coming back to comment here, ever. OK, I’m going to close the thread. “Blog”, please don’t bother coming back to comment here, ever.

]]> By: magistra http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/29/kosovo-and-the-dark-side-of-democracy/comment-page-4/#comment-230627 magistra Sun, 02 Mar 2008 07:58:33 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/29/kosovo-and-the-dark-side-of-democracy/#comment-230627 No-one may have put the primary documents of the Yugoslav 1921 census online, but there are sites which include these figures, such as <a href="http://www.rastko.org.yu/istorija/srbi-balkan/sradovanovic-demography.html" rel="nofollow">Project Rastko</a>. I am not an expert on the field, but this article was a) written by an academic studying demographics and b) appearing on a site which is promoting Serb culture within a multi-ethnic framework (and thus is less likely to be applying nationalist bias of any kind). No-one may have put the primary documents of the Yugoslav 1921 census online, but there are sites which include these figures, such as Project Rastko. I am not an expert on the field, but this article was a) written by an academic studying demographics and b) appearing on a site which is promoting Serb culture within a multi-ethnic framework (and thus is less likely to be applying nationalist bias of any kind).

]]> By: blog http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/29/kosovo-and-the-dark-side-of-democracy/comment-page-3/#comment-230626 blog Sun, 02 Mar 2008 07:14:33 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/29/kosovo-and-the-dark-side-of-democracy/#comment-230626 Moreover over 1.2 million Serbians were killed during WWII. Are you saying that none of these came from Kososvo? Since that is where the Albanian Nazis were headquartered, a good percentage must have come from Kosovo. Moreover over 1.2 million Serbians were killed during WWII. Are you saying that none of these came from Kososvo? Since that is where the Albanian Nazis were headquartered, a good percentage must have come from Kosovo.

]]> By: blog http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/29/kosovo-and-the-dark-side-of-democracy/comment-page-3/#comment-230625 blog Sun, 02 Mar 2008 07:09:55 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/29/kosovo-and-the-dark-side-of-democracy/#comment-230625 Yeah it's your last because you are a liar. I searched those terms and came up with the wikipedia which does not link to any primary documents. Yeah it’s your last because you are a liar. I searched those terms and came up with the wikipedia which does not link to any primary documents.

]]> By: claudia http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/29/kosovo-and-the-dark-side-of-democracy/comment-page-3/#comment-230624 claudia Sun, 02 Mar 2008 07:04:53 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/29/kosovo-and-the-dark-side-of-democracy/#comment-230624 Wow, that got silly. -- "Blog": you can just google "1921 Yugoslav census". There are multiple links to it online. The 1921 Yugoslav census listed 439,010 inhabitants in the province, of which 75% were Muslim (329,502) and 66% spoke Albanian as a native language (288,907). The two figures are different because not all Muslims were Albanian (some were Bosniaks and Turks) and not all Albanians were Muslim (a few were Catholic), but still: it’s pretty clear who was in the majority. The 1931 census painted a similar picture, although the number of Albanian native speakers had dropped to about 62% because of the Yugoslav government's efforts to move Serb settlers in and encourage Albanians to emigrate (to Turkey, oddly enough, not Albania). As for Albanians moving in after WWII, there's very little evidence for this. Albanians in the Balkans have been one of the more settled populations, not prone to large-scale migrations unless driven out. Why "hundreds of thousands" would cross the rather high mountains between Albania and Kosovo in a few years after WWII has never been explained. But I'm getting an "immune to facts" vibe from you, "blog", so this will probably be my last contribution here. Doug M. Wow, that got silly.
—“Blog”: you can just google “1921 Yugoslav census”. There are multiple links to it online.

The 1921 Yugoslav census listed 439,010 inhabitants in the province, of which 75% were Muslim (329,502) and 66% spoke Albanian as a native language (288,907). The two figures are different because not all Muslims were Albanian (some were Bosniaks and Turks) and not all Albanians were Muslim (a few were Catholic), but still: it’s pretty clear who was in the majority.

The 1931 census painted a similar picture, although the number of Albanian native speakers had dropped to about 62% because of the Yugoslav government’s efforts to move Serb settlers in and encourage Albanians to emigrate (to Turkey, oddly enough, not Albania).

As for Albanians moving in after WWII, there’s very little evidence for this. Albanians in the Balkans have been one of the more settled populations, not prone to large-scale migrations unless driven out. Why “hundreds of thousands” would cross the rather high mountains between Albania and Kosovo in a few years after WWII has never been explained.

But I’m getting an “immune to facts” vibe from you, “blog”, so this will probably be my last contribution here.

Doug M.

]]> By: blog http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/29/kosovo-and-the-dark-side-of-democracy/comment-page-3/#comment-230622 blog Sun, 02 Mar 2008 06:53:29 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/29/kosovo-and-the-dark-side-of-democracy/#comment-230622 Yes, I did you crackpot. It is upthread. And no evidence bears on what argument precisely? Yes, I did you crackpot. It is upthread. And no evidence bears on what argument precisely?

]]> By: Nick http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/29/kosovo-and-the-dark-side-of-democracy/comment-page-3/#comment-230621 Nick Sun, 02 Mar 2008 06:49:56 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/29/kosovo-and-the-dark-side-of-democracy/#comment-230621 Now you've done it. Marko Hoare is way smarter than I am, and that's a fact. And your numbers do not bear on his argument. And you did not post a link saying Kosovo was 69% Serb in 1929. Now you’ve done it. Marko Hoare is way smarter than I am, and that’s a fact. And your numbers do not bear on his argument. And you did not post a link saying Kosovo was 69% Serb in 1929.

]]> By: blog http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/29/kosovo-and-the-dark-side-of-democracy/comment-page-3/#comment-230620 blog Sun, 02 Mar 2008 06:47:51 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/29/kosovo-and-the-dark-side-of-democracy/#comment-230620 2) Kosova was conquered forcibly by Serbia in 1912, against the wishes of the ethnic-Albanian majority. Virginia entered the US voluntarily. Another know-it-all pedant with no evidnece to back him up. I posted links to 69% in 29, 50% before WWII, and 30% in 61 and all these simpering, sniveling quacks can come up with is a fraudulent link to Wikipedia. 2) Kosova was conquered forcibly by Serbia in 1912, against the wishes of the ethnic-Albanian majority. Virginia entered the US voluntarily.

Another know-it-all pedant with no evidnece to back him up. I posted links to 69% in 29, 50% before WWII, and 30% in 61 and all these simpering, sniveling quacks can come up with is a fraudulent link to Wikipedia.

]]> By: Marko Attila Hoare http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/29/kosovo-and-the-dark-side-of-democracy/comment-page-3/#comment-230618 Marko Attila Hoare Sun, 02 Mar 2008 06:29:53 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/29/kosovo-and-the-dark-side-of-democracy/#comment-230618 #98 "The relation of Kosovo to Serbia is closer to Virginia and the US than to India and the Raj. That was my point. It holds." No, it doesn't: 1) The population of Virginia is predominantly American. The population of Kosova is not predominantly Serbian. Kosova is ethnically distinct from Serbia; Virginia is not ethnically distinct from the US. 2) Kosova was conquered forcibly by Serbia in 1912, against the wishes of the ethnic-Albanian majority. Virginia entered the US voluntarily. 3) Virginia is an integral part of the US. Kosova was not an integral part of Serbia. The Virginia-Kosova parallel would only work if Native Americans still constituted a majority in Virginia today, and had continuously sought self-rule since they were conquered by the US. Alternatively, if Serbia had succeeded in wiping out the Kosova Albanians the way the white Virginians had wiped out their Native Americans, then the two cases would perhaps be analogous. #98

“The relation of Kosovo to Serbia is closer to Virginia and the US than to India and the Raj. That was my point. It holds.”

No, it doesn’t:

1) The population of Virginia is predominantly American. The population of Kosova is not predominantly Serbian. Kosova is ethnically distinct from Serbia; Virginia is not ethnically distinct from the US.

2) Kosova was conquered forcibly by Serbia in 1912, against the wishes of the ethnic-Albanian majority. Virginia entered the US voluntarily.

3) Virginia is an integral part of the US. Kosova was not an integral part of Serbia.

The Virginia-Kosova parallel would only work if Native Americans still constituted a majority in Virginia today, and had continuously sought self-rule since they were conquered by the US.

Alternatively, if Serbia had succeeded in wiping out the Kosova Albanians the way the white Virginians had wiped out their Native Americans, then the two cases would perhaps be analogous.

]]> By: blog http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/29/kosovo-and-the-dark-side-of-democracy/comment-page-3/#comment-230611 blog Sun, 02 Mar 2008 05:13:06 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/29/kosovo-and-the-dark-side-of-democracy/#comment-230611 BTW, nick lost sight of the original thread because his campaign to demonize the Serbs got derailed. BTW, nick lost sight of the original thread because his campaign to demonize the Serbs got derailed.

]]> By: blog http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/29/kosovo-and-the-dark-side-of-democracy/comment-page-3/#comment-230610 blog Sun, 02 Mar 2008 05:05:54 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/29/kosovo-and-the-dark-side-of-democracy/#comment-230610 "Probably not after, oh, the mid-sixteenth century, Mr. Crnojevic notwithstanding." So now we have the argumentation from probability. Not evidence, or facts. Nick is a fount of novel idiocies. “Probably not after, oh, the mid-sixteenth century, Mr. Crnojevic notwithstanding.”

So now we have the argumentation from probability. Not evidence, or facts. Nick is a fount of novel idiocies.

]]> By: blog http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/29/kosovo-and-the-dark-side-of-democracy/comment-page-3/#comment-230609 blog Sun, 02 Mar 2008 05:04:20 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/29/kosovo-and-the-dark-side-of-democracy/#comment-230609 Yeah, we just have to accept the words of a liar and fraud, who won't back his arguments with any evidence. Yeah, we just have to accept the words of a liar and fraud, who won’t back his arguments with any evidence.

]]> By: Nick http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/29/kosovo-and-the-dark-side-of-democracy/comment-page-3/#comment-230608 Nick Sun, 02 Mar 2008 05:02:49 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/29/kosovo-and-the-dark-side-of-democracy/#comment-230608 I think you have lost sight of the original issue. Don't let my problematic personality get in the way of you accepting the obvious, which is that Serbs were not the majority in Kosovo before World War II. Probably not after, oh, the mid-sixteenth century, Mr. Crnojevic notwithstanding. I think you have lost sight of the original issue. Don’t let my problematic personality get in the way of you accepting the obvious, which is that Serbs were not the majority in Kosovo before World War II. Probably not after, oh, the mid-sixteenth century, Mr. Crnojevic notwithstanding.

]]> By: blog http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/29/kosovo-and-the-dark-side-of-democracy/comment-page-3/#comment-230607 blog Sun, 02 Mar 2008 04:59:03 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/29/kosovo-and-the-dark-side-of-democracy/#comment-230607 A new wondrous argumentation. The argumentation from ignorance. What a wonderful philosopher we have in Nick. A new wondrous argumentation. The argumentation from ignorance. What a wonderful philosopher we have in Nick.

]]> By: Nick http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/29/kosovo-and-the-dark-side-of-democracy/comment-page-3/#comment-230606 Nick Sun, 02 Mar 2008 04:58:45 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/02/29/kosovo-and-the-dark-side-of-democracy/#comment-230606 You're funny. You’re funny.

]]>