<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: A lot or a little, part 2</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/02/a-lot-or-a-little-part-2/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/02/a-lot-or-a-little-part-2/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 00:37:53 -0800</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/02/a-lot-or-a-little-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-230788</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 15:57:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/02/a-lot-or-a-little-part-2/#comment-230788</guid>
		<description>They do bribe too, of course - Egypt, Pakistan. Your know, a time to mourn and a time to dance, a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>They do bribe too, of course &#8211; Egypt, Pakistan. Your know, a time to mourn and a time to dance, a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: ajay</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/02/a-lot-or-a-little-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-230784</link>
		<dc:creator>ajay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 14:43:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/02/a-lot-or-a-little-part-2/#comment-230784</guid>
		<description>10: I think using that policy in Iraq would fall foul of the fact that those running the war have no idea what their strategic aims are.

Comparison with other recent wars is interesting. Maybe Britain could simply have bribed Galtieri to withdraw from the Falklands. Maybe the UN could have bribed Saddam to pull out of Kuwait. Maybe Bush could have bribed Noriega to resign. Maybe Dudayev could have bribed Yeltsin to grant Chechnya its independence.

But... who, exactly, would we bribe in Iraq? And to do what? Who&#039;s the enemy? What are they doing that we don&#039;t want them to do and why? This is Question One of the Seven Questions (British Army tactical appreciation process) and we can&#039;t even answer it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>10: I think using that policy in Iraq would fall foul of the fact that those running the war have no idea what their strategic aims are.</p>

	<p>Comparison with other recent wars is interesting. Maybe Britain could simply have bribed Galtieri to withdraw from the Falklands. Maybe the UN could have bribed Saddam to pull out of Kuwait. Maybe Bush could have bribed Noriega to resign. Maybe Dudayev could have bribed Yeltsin to grant Chechnya its independence.</p>

	<p>But&#8230; who, exactly, would we bribe in Iraq? And to do what? Who&#8217;s the enemy? What are they doing that we don&#8217;t want them to do and why? This is Question One of the Seven Questions (British Army tactical appreciation process) and we can&#8217;t even answer it.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/02/a-lot-or-a-little-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-230779</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 12:03:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/02/a-lot-or-a-little-part-2/#comment-230779</guid>
		<description>Haven&#039;t most recent wars demonstrated that it would be cheaper to offer the other side a huge pile of money to do what the West wants? Unfortunately it overlooks the point that sometimes there are people that other people *really want to kill*... And that there&#039;s no guarantee that said huge pile of money won&#039;t just buy more bombs&#039;n&#039;guns&#039;n&#039;funky stuff...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Haven&#8217;t most recent wars demonstrated that it would be cheaper to offer the other side a huge pile of money to do what the West wants? Unfortunately it overlooks the point that sometimes there are people that other people <strong>really want to kill</strong>&#8230; And that there&#8217;s no guarantee that said huge pile of money won&#8217;t just buy more bombs&#8217;n&#8217;guns&#8217;n&#8217;funky stuff&#8230;</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: dogfacegeorge</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/02/a-lot-or-a-little-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-230761</link>
		<dc:creator>dogfacegeorge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 01:53:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/02/a-lot-or-a-little-part-2/#comment-230761</guid>
		<description>Iraq&#039;s entire GDP is something like $100B.  Much less than the cost of the war.  Wouldn&#039;t it be cheaper if we just paid them not to kill each other?  Or maybe that&#039;s what the Awakening is all about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Iraq&#8217;s entire <span class="caps">GDP</span> is something like $100B.  Much less than the cost of the war.  Wouldn&#8217;t it be cheaper if we just paid them not to kill each other?  Or maybe that&#8217;s what the Awakening is all about.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Sortition</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/02/a-lot-or-a-little-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-230744</link>
		<dc:creator>Sortition</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 20:32:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/02/a-lot-or-a-little-part-2/#comment-230744</guid>
		<description>While we are on this subject, I have a question: The &quot;personal income&quot; in 2006 in the U.S was about &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/tables/08s0651.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;10.9 trillion dollars&lt;/a&gt;. At the same time, the mean household income is &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/histinc/h06ar.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;$66,570&lt;/a&gt;, which, with 116 million households, gives 7.7 trillion dollars. What is the reason for the difference?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>While we are on this subject, I have a question: The &#8220;personal income&#8221; in 2006 in the U.S was about <a href="http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/tables/08s0651.pdf" rel="nofollow">10.9 trillion dollars</a>. At the same time, the mean household income is <a href="http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/histinc/h06ar.html" rel="nofollow">$66,570</a>, which, with 116 million households, gives 7.7 trillion dollars. What is the reason for the difference?</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/02/a-lot-or-a-little-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-230701</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 02:19:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/02/a-lot-or-a-little-part-2/#comment-230701</guid>
		<description>Adam, GDP/national income is much more comparable between countries than is government revenue. For example, looking at the US, would you use only federal revenue, or federal, state and local? Only the feds are likely to give foreign aid, but this creates an obvious bias in making comparisons between federal and unitary states.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Adam, <span class="caps">GDP</span>/national income is much more comparable between countries than is government revenue. For example, looking at the US, would you use only federal revenue, or federal, state and local? Only the feds are likely to give foreign aid, but this creates an obvious bias in making comparisons between federal and unitary states.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: harold</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/02/a-lot-or-a-little-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-230648</link>
		<dc:creator>harold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 17:07:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/02/a-lot-or-a-little-part-2/#comment-230648</guid>
		<description>[The following quotes are excerpts from an article written in 1998 in the Algerian newspaper, Liberte. The paper containing the article was seized by the French Police when the edition reached Lyon in an attempt to censor the story -- this was in 1998 -- (since verified):


&lt;blockquote&gt;
The repression was ordered by [Maurice Papon] the same person who organized the deportation of Jew for the Nazis.

The 17th of October 1961 was a date that marked the height of the repercussions of that hatred which had thrown an ever-increasing number of Algerians whose only crime was their nationality into the murky waters of the river that flows quietly through Paris. Because it had become common practice to get rid of the bodies of Algerians - and sometimes Algerians who were still alive - who bore rather too visible signs of police brutality by depositing them in the Seine. It was way of avoiding embarrassing questions. During the summer of 1961 it was quite clear how the war was going to end and some people in France were unwilling to accept that thousands of workers with the dubious privilege of taking on all the dirty jobs, those thousands of men with swarthy features on whom they were used to venting their xenophobic spleen, should be on the point of belonging to a free, sovereign nation.


The provocation came in the form of a police order that Moslem &quot;citizens&quot; of Algeria only should be subject to a curfew from 8.30pm to 5.30am, on the pretext that there had been a significant increase in the number of attacks on policemen. Does it need to be pointed out that the number of these attacks, at a time when the first negotiations were signaling an end to the fighting, was tiny compared to the number of victims of &quot;excesses&quot; by the French police? The implications of these restrictions on the Algerian community were such that the leaders of the armed struggle in France organised a response.


For quite apart from the fact that it discriminated against Algerians, the curfew opened the way to all kinds of abuse of authority, making such abuses legal, effectively making it a crime to look like a foreigner and forcing unemployment on the countless workers who needed to go to and 
As a result, history made this one of the most tragic episodes in the war of national liberation. And if the events of October 1961 were wrapped in a cloak of silence in France, doubtless because they hardly showed the French authorities in a good light, they were nonetheless the subject of various investigations by impartial observers and even nationalists who were ashamed of the wave of brutality organised by their leaders and carried on with matchless zeal by the &quot;forces of law and order&quot;. http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/algerians_liberte.htm

&lt;blockquote&gt;
Some publications in France that tried to reveal the truth were censored. Temps Modernes, the magazine of Jean-Paul Sartre, the philosopher and author, called the episode &quot;a pogrom&quot;. Papon had the edition seized.
http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/algerians_sunday_times.htm

[Sartre has been discredited to this day. And speaking of Sartre, vilified even posthumously, and not, I suspect, solely for his sexlife, sordid as it may have been, I sometimes wonder why a hothead like Alexander Cockburn is permitted to write in the pages of the neo-con NYT book review, while Noam Chomsky is a non person on its pages and everywhere else in the US mainstream media.]&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[The following quotes are excerpts from an article written in 1998 in the Algerian newspaper, Liberte. The paper containing the article was seized by the French Police when the edition reached Lyon in an attempt to censor the story&#8212;this was in 1998&#8212;(since verified):</p>


	<p><blockquote><br />
The repression was ordered by [Maurice Papon] the same person who organized the deportation of Jew for the Nazis.</blockquote></p>

	<p>The 17th of October 1961 was a date that marked the height of the repercussions of that hatred which had thrown an ever-increasing number of Algerians whose only crime was their nationality into the murky waters of the river that flows quietly through Paris. Because it had become common practice to get rid of the bodies of Algerians &#8211; and sometimes Algerians who were still alive &#8211; who bore rather too visible signs of police brutality by depositing them in the Seine. It was way of avoiding embarrassing questions. During the summer of 1961 it was quite clear how the war was going to end and some people in France were unwilling to accept that thousands of workers with the dubious privilege of taking on all the dirty jobs, those thousands of men with swarthy features on whom they were used to venting their xenophobic spleen, should be on the point of belonging to a free, sovereign nation.</p>


	<p>The provocation came in the form of a police order that Moslem &#8220;citizens&#8221; of Algeria only should be subject to a curfew from 8.30pm to 5.30am, on the pretext that there had been a significant increase in the number of attacks on policemen. Does it need to be pointed out that the number of these attacks, at a time when the first negotiations were signaling an end to the fighting, was tiny compared to the number of victims of &#8220;excesses&#8221; by the French police? The implications of these restrictions on the Algerian community were such that the leaders of the armed struggle in France organised a response.</p>


	<p>For quite apart from the fact that it discriminated against Algerians, the curfew opened the way to all kinds of abuse of authority, making such abuses legal, effectively making it a crime to look like a foreigner and forcing unemployment on the countless workers who needed to go to and<br />
As a result, history made this one of the most tragic episodes in the war of national liberation. And if the events of October 1961 were wrapped in a cloak of silence in France, doubtless because they hardly showed the French authorities in a good light, they were nonetheless the subject of various investigations by impartial observers and even nationalists who were ashamed of the wave of brutality organised by their leaders and carried on with matchless zeal by the &#8220;forces of law and order&#8221;. <a href="http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/algerians_liberte.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/algerians_liberte.htm</a></p>

	<p><blockquote><br />
Some publications in France that tried to reveal the truth were censored. Temps Modernes, the magazine of Jean-Paul Sartre, the philosopher and author, called the episode &#8220;a pogrom&#8221;. Papon had the edition seized.<br />
<a href="http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/algerians_sunday_times.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/algerians_sunday_times.htm</a></blockquote></p>

	<p>[Sartre has been discredited to this day. And speaking of Sartre, vilified even posthumously, and not, I suspect, solely for his sexlife, sordid as it may have been, I sometimes wonder why a hothead like Alexander Cockburn is permitted to write in the pages of the neo-con <span class="caps">NYT</span> book review, while Noam Chomsky is a non person on its pages and everywhere else in the US mainstream media.]</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: harold</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/02/a-lot-or-a-little-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-230646</link>
		<dc:creator>harold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 16:20:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/02/a-lot-or-a-little-part-2/#comment-230646</guid>
		<description>I think the Algerian War affected the French people much more than the Iraq war does Americans. That at least is my subjective opinion, since I was in France briefly at various times while it was going on, though very young -- though a precocious newspaper reader. Perhaps someone else remembers. 


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961

Then there was the revolt (almost) of the Generals. 

But mainly I remember an atmosphere of  instability, in which fear, general bad feelings and outright anger, violence, &amp;  resentment (and privation -- remember they had just come out of WWII and you saw amputated veterans everywhere) were palpable. At least that is my dim recollection. I don&#039;t think we are there yet in the USA.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think the Algerian War affected the French people much more than the Iraq war does Americans. That at least is my subjective opinion, since I was in France briefly at various times while it was going on, though very young&#8212;though a precocious newspaper reader. Perhaps someone else remembers.</p>


	<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961</a></p>

	<p>Then there was the revolt (almost) of the Generals.</p>

	<p>But mainly I remember an atmosphere of  instability, in which fear, general bad feelings and outright anger, violence, &#038;  resentment (and privation&#8212;remember they had just come out of <span class="caps">WWII</span> and you saw amputated veterans everywhere) were palpable. At least that is my dim recollection. I don&#8217;t think we are there yet in the <span class="caps">USA</span>.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Adam Roberts</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/02/a-lot-or-a-little-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-230645</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Roberts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 14:54:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/02/a-lot-or-a-little-part-2/#comment-230645</guid>
		<description>Here I give voice to my ignorance of economics.  Why are donations of this sort always tabulated as percentages of national GDPs?  It&#039;s not as if governments have the entire GDP at their disposal to spend.  Wouldn&#039;t it make more sense to cite it as a percentage of national tax revenue (say)?  Don&#039;t get me wrong: I think it&#039;s shaming how little we in the west have contributed from our wealth to international aid; but I wonder if there&#039;s a bias in the way the data is framed. Viz. 0.7% looks so small a figure not even Scrooge McDuck would baulk at it; 0.3% then looks beyond absurd and plain insulting.  But it&#039;s not comparable to me promising 0.7% of my post-tax income to charity, or something, is it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Here I give voice to my ignorance of economics.  Why are donations of this sort always tabulated as percentages of national GDPs?  It&#8217;s not as if governments have the entire <span class="caps">GDP</span> at their disposal to spend.  Wouldn&#8217;t it make more sense to cite it as a percentage of national tax revenue (say)?  Don&#8217;t get me wrong: I think it&#8217;s shaming how little we in the west have contributed from our wealth to international aid; but I wonder if there&#8217;s a bias in the way the data is framed. Viz. 0.7% looks so small a figure not even Scrooge McDuck would baulk at it; 0.3% then looks beyond absurd and plain insulting.  But it&#8217;s not comparable to me promising 0.7% of my post-tax income to charity, or something, is it.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/02/a-lot-or-a-little-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-230639</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 10:49:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/02/a-lot-or-a-little-part-2/#comment-230639</guid>
		<description>Incidentally, from Aida Edemariam&#039;s piece in The Guardian:
&lt;blockquote&gt;
...rising oil prices have &quot;had the effect of lowering the average income by 3% - more than offsetting all of the increase in foreign aid that they [African countries] had received in recent years, and setting the stage for another crisis in these countries.&quot;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Incidentally, from Aida Edemariam&#8217;s piece in The Guardian:<br />
<blockquote><br />
&#8230;rising oil prices have &#8220;had the effect of lowering the average income by 3% &#8211; more than offsetting all of the increase in foreign aid that they [African countries] had received in recent years, and setting the stage for another crisis in these countries.&#8221;<br />
</blockquote></p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: James Wimberley</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/02/a-lot-or-a-little-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-230637</link>
		<dc:creator>James Wimberley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 10:44:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/02/a-lot-or-a-little-part-2/#comment-230637</guid>
		<description>Link missing in the second line.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Link missing in the second line.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Adam Roberts</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/02/a-lot-or-a-little-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-230635</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Roberts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 09:14:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/02/a-lot-or-a-little-part-2/#comment-230635</guid>
		<description>&quot;&lt;i&gt;A typical “small war”, like Iraq or the French war in Algeria, big enough to be a central policy issue for the , but not to impinge on the day to day life of most people&lt;/i&gt;&quot;

A central policy issue for the comma?

&lt;em&gt;D&#039;oh, yet again! Fixed now, I hope - JQ&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;<i>A typical &#8220;small war&#8221;, like Iraq or the French war in Algeria, big enough to be a central policy issue for the , but not to impinge on the day to day life of most people</i>&#8221;</p>

	<p>A central policy issue for the comma?</p>

	<p><em>D&#8217;oh, yet again! Fixed now, I hope &#8211; JQ</em></p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
