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	<title>Comments on: Deliberation vs. participation in blogs</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/03/deliberation-vs-participation-in-blogs/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: links for 2008-03-10 &#124; Daily EM</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/03/deliberation-vs-participation-in-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-231538</link>
		<dc:creator>links for 2008-03-10 &#124; Daily EM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Mar 2008 04:37:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/03/deliberation-vs-participation-in-blogs/#comment-231538</guid>
		<description>[...] Crooked Timber » » Deliberation vs. participation in blogs interesting alternative to Sunstein: &#8220;[Mutz&#8217;s research shows] quite substantial negative correlation between exposure to cross-cutting views and willingness to participate &#8230;more participation is likely to go together with less deliberation among people (tags: democracy deliberation participation blogging politics debate ideology discourse media sociology trends sunstein darkside) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] Crooked Timber &#187; &#187; Deliberation vs. participation in blogs interesting alternative to Sunstein: &#8220;[Mutz&#8217;s research shows] quite substantial negative correlation between exposure to cross-cutting views and willingness to participate &#8230;more participation is likely to go together with less deliberation among people (tags: democracy deliberation participation blogging politics debate ideology discourse media sociology trends sunstein darkside) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: links for 2008-03-07 &#171; CF Bloke blog</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/03/deliberation-vs-participation-in-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-231262</link>
		<dc:creator>links for 2008-03-07 &#171; CF Bloke blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Mar 2008 13:22:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/03/deliberation-vs-participation-in-blogs/#comment-231262</guid>
		<description>[...] Crooked Timber » » Deliberation vs. participation in blogs (tags: blogs) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] Crooked Timber &#187; &#187; Deliberation vs. participation in blogs (tags: blogs) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Steven Poole</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/03/deliberation-vs-participation-in-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-230901</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Poole</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Mar 2008 14:26:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/03/deliberation-vs-participation-in-blogs/#comment-230901</guid>
		<description>Quite.

There is also no reason, as far as I can see, to accept Sunstein&#039;s bizarre insistence that citing an opposing point of view in order to pour scorn on it somehow doesn&#039;t count as &lt;em&gt;really&lt;/em&gt; or authentically citing the opposing point of view.  

Since Sunstein thinks that blog-readers are such easily brain-washed idiots that they can&#039;t evaluate quoted material for themselves if someone else is pouring scorn on it, then they must also be so idiotic that they couldn&#039;t make up their minds if presented forcibly, as he wants them to be, with opposing points of view and no commentary, or reasonably argued opposing points of view. 

So what Sunstein proposes cannot possibly work, owing to Sunstein&#039;s own theory of the intractable idiocy of the multitude. We would just be left with an internet full of Buridan&#039;s asses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Quite.</p>

	<p>There is also no reason, as far as I can see, to accept Sunstein&#8217;s bizarre insistence that citing an opposing point of view in order to pour scorn on it somehow doesn&#8217;t count as <em>really</em> or authentically citing the opposing point of view.</p>

	<p>Since Sunstein thinks that blog-readers are such easily brain-washed idiots that they can&#8217;t evaluate quoted material for themselves if someone else is pouring scorn on it, then they must also be so idiotic that they couldn&#8217;t make up their minds if presented forcibly, as he wants them to be, with opposing points of view and no commentary, or reasonably argued opposing points of view.</p>

	<p>So what Sunstein proposes cannot possibly work, owing to Sunstein&#8217;s own theory of the intractable idiocy of the multitude. We would just be left with an internet full of Buridan&#8217;s asses.</p>
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		<title>By: dsquared</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/03/deliberation-vs-participation-in-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-230852</link>
		<dc:creator>dsquared</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Mar 2008 07:40:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/03/deliberation-vs-participation-in-blogs/#comment-230852</guid>
		<description>I think John Emerson makes the right point; as far as I can see, Cass Sunstein is trying to promote dialogue and openness on a scale which runs the gamut from liberal Republicans to Republican liberals.  I really, really, don&#039;t see any evidence of him going out and seriously engaging with mrzine.com or anything similar.  It&#039;s another version of not needing to control what people think if you can control what they think &lt;i&gt;about&lt;/i&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think John Emerson makes the right point; as far as I can see, Cass Sunstein is trying to promote dialogue and openness on a scale which runs the gamut from liberal Republicans to Republican liberals.  I really, really, don&#8217;t see any evidence of him going out and seriously engaging with mrzine.com or anything similar.  It&#8217;s another version of not needing to control what people think if you can control what they think <i>about</i>.</p>
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		<title>By: bicyclewarriorwith314</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/03/deliberation-vs-participation-in-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-230848</link>
		<dc:creator>bicyclewarriorwith314</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Mar 2008 06:48:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/03/deliberation-vs-participation-in-blogs/#comment-230848</guid>
		<description>That goes back to the issue of gatekeepers which I think is a lot of the motivation behind this:
&lt;blockquote&gt;This trend is independent of any particular medium, though obviously it worked well when the media were playing by the kinds of rules Sunstein recommends, in which Republican viewpoints are regarded as being automatically legitimate&lt;/blockquote&gt;
When the &quot;far-left&quot; is shut out of the media, high-profile centrist or center-left figures (I think that would include Sunstein?) become gatekeepers to the ideas of the far left. I wouldn&#039;t want to lose that status if I were him. Also, there seems to be a tradition of U of Chicago professors playing the public intellectual game saying things just to be controversial. See &lt;a href=&quot;http://books.google.com/books?as_auth=Leon+R+Kass&amp;sa=X&amp;oi=print&amp;ct=title&amp;cad=author-navigational&amp;hl=en&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Leon Kass.&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>That goes back to the issue of gatekeepers which I think is a lot of the motivation behind this:<br />
<blockquote>This trend is independent of any particular medium, though obviously it worked well when the media were playing by the kinds of rules Sunstein recommends, in which Republican viewpoints are regarded as being automatically legitimate</blockquote><br />
When the &#8220;far-left&#8221; is shut out of the media, high-profile centrist or center-left figures (I think that would include Sunstein?) become gatekeepers to the ideas of the far left. I wouldn&#8217;t want to lose that status if I were him. Also, there seems to be a tradition of U of Chicago professors playing the public intellectual game saying things just to be controversial. See <a href="http://books.google.com/books?as_auth=Leon+R+Kass&#038;sa=X&#038;oi=print&#038;ct=title&#038;cad=author-navigational&#038;hl=en" rel="nofollow">Leon Kass.</a></p>
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		<title>By: clarencegirl</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/03/deliberation-vs-participation-in-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-230842</link>
		<dc:creator>clarencegirl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Mar 2008 03:54:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/03/deliberation-vs-participation-in-blogs/#comment-230842</guid>
		<description>Deliberation vs participation? No idea. Enjoying  the arguments that are being put forward though.
We entered the blogosphere last year simply to have an indentifiably Northern NSW regional voice out there, as locally we were drowning not waving in a sea of urban political opinion.
Compounded by the fact that the local print media has always been unwilling to undertake any critical evaluation or discussion of issues for fear of scaring the major advertisers.
We&#039;re barely computer literate but we know our patch.
Guess you could say that we are &#039;participating&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Deliberation vs participation? No idea. Enjoying  the arguments that are being put forward though.<br />
We entered the blogosphere last year simply to have an indentifiably Northern <span class="caps">NSW</span> regional voice out there, as locally we were drowning not waving in a sea of urban political opinion.<br />
Compounded by the fact that the local print media has always been unwilling to undertake any critical evaluation or discussion of issues for fear of scaring the major advertisers.<br />
We&#8217;re barely computer literate but we know our patch.<br />
Guess you could say that we are &#8216;participating&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: Club Troppo &#187; Missing Link Daily</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/03/deliberation-vs-participation-in-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-230830</link>
		<dc:creator>Club Troppo &#187; Missing Link Daily</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Mar 2008 00:02:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/03/deliberation-vs-participation-in-blogs/#comment-230830</guid>
		<description>[...] Farrell interviews renowned legal academic Cass Sunstein on Bloggingheads.TV.  Sunstein is pessimistic about the nature of the influence blogs are having [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] Farrell interviews renowned legal academic Cass Sunstein&#160;on Bloggingheads.TV.&#160; Sunstein&#160;is pessimistic about the nature of the influence blogs are having [...]</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/03/deliberation-vs-participation-in-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-230812</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 20:40:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/03/deliberation-vs-participation-in-blogs/#comment-230812</guid>
		<description>To repeat myself and previous commentators, Sunstein is generalizing from a single case,that of the US Republican party and its network of thinktanks, news outlets, blogs and so on. Ever since Nixon, the Republicans have devoted themselves to the promotion of a deep partisan split in the US (&quot;cut the country in half and take the bigger half&quot; as, from memory, Pat Buchanan put it). This trend is independent of any particular medium, though obviously it worked well when the media were playing by the kinds of rules Sunstein recommends, in which Republican viewpoints are regarded as being automatically legitimate, regardless of whether they are factually false, morally repugnant etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>To repeat myself and previous commentators, Sunstein is generalizing from a single case,that of the <span class="caps">US </span>Republican party and its network of thinktanks, news outlets, blogs and so on. Ever since Nixon, the Republicans have devoted themselves to the promotion of a deep partisan split in the <span class="caps">US </span>(&#8220;cut the country in half and take the bigger half&#8221; as, from memory, Pat Buchanan put it). This trend is independent of any particular medium, though obviously it worked well when the media were playing by the kinds of rules Sunstein recommends, in which Republican viewpoints are regarded as being automatically legitimate, regardless of whether they are factually false, morally repugnant etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Steven Poole</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/03/deliberation-vs-participation-in-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-230801</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Poole</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 17:49:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/03/deliberation-vs-participation-in-blogs/#comment-230801</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the reference, Henry. It still seems awfully hand-wavy to me, with vague uses of &quot;some&quot;, &quot;many&quot;, and so forth, repetition of the &quot;In other words&quot; nonsense sentence, citations of a few small-scale studies, and the very odd conclusion:
&lt;blockquote&gt; In this way, real deliberation is &lt;em&gt;often&lt;/em&gt; occurring across established points of view, but only &lt;em&gt;infrequently&lt;/em&gt;. [p94, emphases added]&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Well, er, is it often or infrequently? And what value of infrequently should make us dreadfully worried?

The larger problem, it seems to me, is that Sunstein is still writing (as in &lt;em&gt;Republic.com 2.0&lt;/em&gt;) from an apparent assumption that the great unwashed blogging/blog-reading masses are stupid and incurious, which prejudice is reflected in the strange form of the questions he asks, eg: &quot;Do blogs allow people to check information and correct errors?&quot; To which the correct answer is: what is this &quot;allow&quot;? Blogs do not &lt;em&gt;stop&lt;/em&gt; anyone doing that, and it is in fact exactly what some blogs do.

If blogs really were the ineluctably polarizing force he guesses they are, what should we expect to find right about now, having had blogs for many years? Nothing, I suppose, but neo-Nazis on one side and anarcho-communists on the other.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thanks for the reference, Henry. It still seems awfully hand-wavy to me, with vague uses of &#8220;some&#8221;, &#8220;many&#8221;, and so forth, repetition of the &#8220;In other words&#8221; nonsense sentence, citations of a few small-scale studies, and the very odd conclusion:<br />
<blockquote> In this way, real deliberation is <em>often</em> occurring across established points of view, but only <em>infrequently</em>. [p94, emphases added]</blockquote></p>

	<p>Well, er, is it often or infrequently? And what value of infrequently should make us dreadfully worried?</p>

	<p>The larger problem, it seems to me, is that Sunstein is still writing (as in <em>Republic.com 2.0</em>) from an apparent assumption that the great unwashed blogging/blog-reading masses are stupid and incurious, which prejudice is reflected in the strange form of the questions he asks, eg: &#8220;Do blogs allow people to check information and correct errors?&#8221; To which the correct answer is: what is this &#8220;allow&#8221;? Blogs do not <em>stop</em> anyone doing that, and it is in fact exactly what some blogs do.</p>

	<p>If blogs really were the ineluctably polarizing force he guesses they are, what should we expect to find right about now, having had blogs for many years? Nothing, I suppose, but neo-Nazis on one side and anarcho-communists on the other.</p>
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		<title>By: Henry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/03/deliberation-vs-participation-in-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-230790</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 16:32:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/03/deliberation-vs-participation-in-blogs/#comment-230790</guid>
		<description>Steven - there is a bit more in his piece on blogs in the Jan 2008 issue of _Public Choice._ I am in the throes together with GWU colleagues of writing a piece that looks at some new data on these issues - hope to have more to say about this soon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Steven &#8211; there is a bit more in his piece on blogs in the Jan 2008 issue of <em>Public Choice.</em> I am in the throes together with <span class="caps">GWU</span> colleagues of writing a piece that looks at some new data on these issues &#8211; hope to have more to say about this soon.</p>
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		<title>By: links for 2008-03-04 &#171; CF Bloke blog</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/03/deliberation-vs-participation-in-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-230781</link>
		<dc:creator>links for 2008-03-04 &#171; CF Bloke blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 13:24:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/03/deliberation-vs-participation-in-blogs/#comment-230781</guid>
		<description>[...] Crooked Timber » » Deliberation vs. participation in blogs (tags: elections) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] Crooked Timber &#187; &#187; Deliberation vs. participation in blogs (tags: elections) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/03/deliberation-vs-participation-in-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-230780</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 13:23:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/03/deliberation-vs-participation-in-blogs/#comment-230780</guid>
		<description>&quot;Brett, Norquist is crazier than you, and people listen to him.&quot;

Posted by John Emerson

Firghtening.  And worse, Norquist is probably even slimier and more dishonest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Brett, Norquist is crazier than you, and people listen to him.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Posted by John Emerson</p>

	<p>Firghtening.  And worse, Norquist is probably even slimier and more dishonest.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Wisse</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/03/deliberation-vs-participation-in-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-230773</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Wisse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 08:30:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/03/deliberation-vs-participation-in-blogs/#comment-230773</guid>
		<description>There was a vogue for &quot;2.0&quot; titles a few years back, but that was a few years back. It&#039;s a symptom of how much of an ignorant fucker Cass Sunstein is.

We&#039;ve had the whole discussion about how blogs encourage extremism and how dialogue between left and right needs to be protected, ad nauseum, five frigging years ago. that this fossil thinks it makes sense in 200-bloody-8 to drag it up again does not mean we should indulge him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>There was a vogue for &#8220;2.0&#8221; titles a few years back, but that was a few years back. It&#8217;s a symptom of how much of an ignorant fucker Cass Sunstein is.</p>

	<p>We&#8217;ve had the whole discussion about how blogs encourage extremism and how dialogue between left and right needs to be protected, ad nauseum, five frigging years ago. that this fossil thinks it makes sense in 200-bloody-8 to drag it up again does not mean we should indulge him.</p>
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		<title>By: bicyclewarriorwith314</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/03/deliberation-vs-participation-in-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-230772</link>
		<dc:creator>bicyclewarriorwith314</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 07:38:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/03/deliberation-vs-participation-in-blogs/#comment-230772</guid>
		<description>18: I mean, there&#039;s nothing logically wrong with that title, just my impression that it sounded very stilted and poseur-ish. As a friend put it, &#039;a shade below Republic.com 2000&#039;. Also, it sounded a bit awkward and disengaged, not unlike the way he referred to the &quot;red state&quot; and &quot;blue state&quot; factions in the interview. When somebody is theorizing how factions work in a political process, and the words they come up with to describe those factions are vague media cliches, that to me is a tell-tale sign of sloppy thinking.

Anyway, this is just my impression, not a factual dispute. It could be important, or not, depending on the rest of the picture. But at least one other person has pointed out &quot;mere hand-waving&quot;. So I get the sense that this book may not be serious, engaged scholarship so much as an effort to defend a cherished status quo from a threatening new phenomenon that can&#039;t just be written off as a fad. More an effort to draw fellow-travelers back to canonical venues of discussion than an attempt to seriously engage with people who have already begun to carry their conversation beyond those venues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>18: I mean, there&#8217;s nothing logically wrong with that title, just my impression that it sounded very stilted and poseur-ish. As a friend put it, &#8216;a shade below Republic.com 2000&#8217;. Also, it sounded a bit awkward and disengaged, not unlike the way he referred to the &#8220;red state&#8221; and &#8220;blue state&#8221; factions in the interview. When somebody is theorizing how factions work in a political process, and the words they come up with to describe those factions are vague media cliches, that to me is a tell-tale sign of sloppy thinking.</p>

	<p>Anyway, this is just my impression, not a factual dispute. It could be important, or not, depending on the rest of the picture. But at least one other person has pointed out &#8220;mere hand-waving&#8221;. So I get the sense that this book may not be serious, engaged scholarship so much as an effort to defend a cherished status quo from a threatening new phenomenon that can&#8217;t just be written off as a fad. More an effort to draw fellow-travelers back to canonical venues of discussion than an attempt to seriously engage with people who have already begun to carry their conversation beyond those venues.</p>
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		<title>By: Orin Kerr</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/03/deliberation-vs-participation-in-blogs/comment-page-1/#comment-230771</link>
		<dc:creator>Orin Kerr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 06:54:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/03/deliberation-vs-participation-in-blogs/#comment-230771</guid>
		<description>Interesting exchange, Henry (and Cass).  Thanks for posting it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Interesting exchange, Henry (and Cass).  Thanks for posting it.</p>
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