Comments on: Gitmo and Gulag http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/04/gitmo-and-gulag/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sun, 22 Nov 2009 06:15:54 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: John Quiggin http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/04/gitmo-and-gulag/comment-page-1/#comment-230980 John Quiggin Wed, 05 Mar 2008 20:59:34 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/04/gitmo-and-gulag/#comment-230980 Denning is an interesting case. Back in the 70s he was viewed with great approval by the (mildly) progressive lawyers I knew, essentially because of his willingness to legislate from the bench. But the assumption that his laws would be better than those passed by Parliament turned out to be wrong. Denning is an interesting case. Back in the 70s he was viewed with great approval by the (mildly) progressive lawyers I knew, essentially because of his willingness to legislate from the bench. But the assumption that his laws would be better than those passed by Parliament turned out to be wrong.

]]> By: Sans S http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/04/gitmo-and-gulag/comment-page-1/#comment-230893 Sans S Wed, 05 Mar 2008 13:18:18 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/04/gitmo-and-gulag/#comment-230893 The third last paragraph in the referenced article starts with the following line: <em>"The intelligence community was never designed to produce evidence," ... </em> I can't help but laugh at the absurdity of this period in history and at the same time cring in the reflection that humanity doesn't evolve in any optimal progression. I guess I can reinforce the paragraph's sentiment with my own statement of probability: Intelligence is in a Straussian vortex. Truth and language are continuously forced apart. What a waste! The third last paragraph in the referenced article starts with the following line:

“The intelligence community was never designed to produce evidence,” …

I can’t help but laugh at the absurdity of this period in history and at the same time cring in the reflection that humanity doesn’t evolve in any optimal progression.

I guess I can reinforce the paragraph’s sentiment with my own statement of probability: Intelligence is in a Straussian vortex. Truth and language are continuously forced apart. What a waste!

]]> By: idle hands http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/04/gitmo-and-gulag/comment-page-1/#comment-230870 idle hands Wed, 05 Mar 2008 10:45:46 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/04/gitmo-and-gulag/#comment-230870 @16, but does this principle apply to Hitler and Stalin themselves? Do they get a free pass, too, because they weren't exactly like one another, either? @16,
but does this principle apply to Hitler and Stalin themselves? Do they get a free pass, too, because they weren’t exactly like one another, either?

]]> By: richard http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/04/gitmo-and-gulag/comment-page-1/#comment-230840 richard Wed, 05 Mar 2008 02:25:43 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/04/gitmo-and-gulag/#comment-230840 <i>Only if our show trials are exactly like Stalin’s, and only if our gulag is exactly like the USSR’s, can we be compared to them</i> Sorry, they will always be incomparable, because one was done by evil death-lovin' commies and the other was done by the Great and Noble Beacon of Freedom. cf. "Hitler factor" for all cases of mass killing that can't <i>quite</i> be termed genocide. Only if our show trials are exactly like Stalin’s, and only if our gulag is exactly like the USSR’s, can we be compared to them

Sorry, they will always be incomparable, because one was done by evil death-lovin’ commies and the other was done by the Great and Noble Beacon of Freedom. cf. “Hitler factor” for all cases of mass killing that can’t quite be termed genocide.

]]> By: Mrs Tilton http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/04/gitmo-and-gulag/comment-page-1/#comment-230817 Mrs Tilton Tue, 04 Mar 2008 22:18:16 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/04/gitmo-and-gulag/#comment-230817 Harry, dc @11, 12, indeed CT's own K. Healy has alluded to Denning's appalling vistas on this very website, with what I still maintain is the absolutely no-contest hands-down best post title evah. I'm pleased Harry checked and thus avoided placing this on poor Patrick Devlin's head. Devlin got one big argument (emm) appalling wrong and, quite rightly, had his arse handed to him on a plate for it. But that to one side (and though I am prejudiced in his favour) he was, I think, a decent enough sort. I quite liked his <i>Trial by Jury</i>; <i>Easing the Passing</i> was loads of gossippy fun; and even in death he provided for boffo entertainment -- just ask Lord Mackay! Harry, dc @11, 12,

indeed CT’s own K. Healy has alluded to Denning’s appalling vistas on this very website, with what I still maintain is the absolutely no-contest hands-down best post title evah.

I’m pleased Harry checked and thus avoided placing this on poor Patrick Devlin’s head. Devlin got one big argument (emm) appalling wrong and, quite rightly, had his arse handed to him on a plate for it. But that to one side (and though I am prejudiced in his favour) he was, I think, a decent enough sort. I quite liked his Trial by Jury; Easing the Passing was loads of gossippy fun; and even in death he provided for boffo entertainment—just ask Lord Mackay!

]]> By: abb1 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/04/gitmo-and-gulag/comment-page-1/#comment-230810 abb1 Tue, 04 Mar 2008 19:53:44 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/04/gitmo-and-gulag/#comment-230810 I just finished watching Taxi to the Dark Side. The documentary says that not a single officer or above has been punished for torture, murders, kidnappings, all that. And apparently one of the bills passed by the congress gives total absolution to all the administration officials involved. It occurred to me: say what you want about Stalinism, but at least there, after a few years, the butchers would always share the fate of their victims, poetic justice fulfilled. That's a nice feature for a regime, I think. Something to aspire to. I just finished watching Taxi to the Dark Side. The documentary says that not a single officer or above has been punished for torture, murders, kidnappings, all that. And apparently one of the bills passed by the congress gives total absolution to all the administration officials involved.

It occurred to me: say what you want about Stalinism, but at least there, after a few years, the butchers would always share the fate of their victims, poetic justice fulfilled. That’s a nice feature for a regime, I think. Something to aspire to.

]]> By: Dave http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/04/gitmo-and-gulag/comment-page-1/#comment-230808 Dave Tue, 04 Mar 2008 19:20:20 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/04/gitmo-and-gulag/#comment-230808 Fiat justicia, ruat coeli my arse, as we say back in the Old Country.... Fiat justicia, ruat coeli my arse, as we say back in the Old Country….

]]> By: DC http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/04/gitmo-and-gulag/comment-page-1/#comment-230807 DC Tue, 04 Mar 2008 19:05:40 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/04/gitmo-and-gulag/#comment-230807 "...because it would undermine the public confidence in the system of justice." Presenting "an appalling vista", was the phrase. “…because it would undermine the public confidence in the system of justice.”

Presenting “an appalling vista”, was the phrase.

]]> By: harry b http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/04/gitmo-and-gulag/comment-page-1/#comment-230805 harry b Tue, 04 Mar 2008 18:37:35 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/04/gitmo-and-gulag/#comment-230805 That's almost exactly what one of the Law Lords -- after checking wikipedia I'm sure it was Denning -- said about reopening the Birmingham 6 trial -- that even if they were innocent we shouldn't re-open the trial because it would undermine the public confidence in the system of justice. Completely OT, I'm glad I checked wikipedia because I was going to say it was Devlin, not Denning, which I find, to my surprise and pleasure, would have been a dreadful slur; Devlin apparently actively campaigned to reopen the Guildford 4 case. That’s almost exactly what one of the Law Lords—after checking wikipedia I’m sure it was Denning—said about reopening the Birmingham 6 trial—that even if they were innocent we shouldn’t re-open the trial because it would undermine the public confidence in the system of justice.

Completely OT, I’m glad I checked wikipedia because I was going to say it was Devlin, not Denning, which I find, to my surprise and pleasure, would have been a dreadful slur; Devlin apparently actively campaigned to reopen the Guildford 4 case.

]]> By: abb1 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/04/gitmo-and-gulag/comment-page-1/#comment-230795 abb1 Tue, 04 Mar 2008 17:09:32 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/04/gitmo-and-gulag/#comment-230795 @9, does this apply to the phrase "show trial" too? @9, does this apply to the phrase “show trial” too?

]]> By: Jim S. http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/04/gitmo-and-gulag/comment-page-1/#comment-230789 Jim S. Tue, 04 Mar 2008 16:16:31 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/04/gitmo-and-gulag/#comment-230789 Well as a matter of fact the Gulag involved millions whereas Guantanamo and co. has involved a few thousand. Further, there has been much and continuous criticism, not least from military personnel, of such practices. This person has never supported such practices and never will. Still, one can vehemently oppose them and nevertheless say that they are not as great as what has always been going on in the Arab and other Moslem state, let alone the Gulag. Well as a matter of fact the Gulag involved millions whereas Guantanamo and co. has involved a few thousand. Further, there has been much and continuous criticism, not least from military personnel, of such practices.

This person has never supported such practices and never will. Still, one can vehemently oppose them and nevertheless say that they are not as great as what has always been going on in the Arab and other Moslem state, let alone the Gulag.

]]> By: stostosto http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/04/gitmo-and-gulag/comment-page-1/#comment-230787 stostosto Tue, 04 Mar 2008 15:21:31 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/04/gitmo-and-gulag/#comment-230787 There you go again, trivialising the Gulag, eh? There you go again, trivialising the Gulag, eh?

]]> By: Ugh http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/04/gitmo-and-gulag/comment-page-1/#comment-230786 Ugh Tue, 04 Mar 2008 14:56:57 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/04/gitmo-and-gulag/#comment-230786 No no no, you see, this is all wrong. Only if our show trials are <b>exactly</b> like Stalin's, and only if our gulag is <b>exactly</b> like the USSR's, can we be compared to them. But since our show trials and gulag have marginal differences (did the people in the Siberian gulags get lemon chicken, huh? And certainly it wasn't sunny there, unlike Club Gitmo) that make them not as egregiously horrible as the USSR's, everything is fine. It's like the light from the city on the hill blots everything out and makes it all better. No no no, you see, this is all wrong. Only if our show trials are exactly like Stalin’s, and only if our gulag is exactly like the USSR’s, can we be compared to them. But since our show trials and gulag have marginal differences (did the people in the Siberian gulags get lemon chicken, huh? And certainly it wasn’t sunny there, unlike Club Gitmo) that make them not as egregiously horrible as the USSR’s, everything is fine. It’s like the light from the city on the hill blots everything out and makes it all better.

]]> By: ajay http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/04/gitmo-and-gulag/comment-page-1/#comment-230785 ajay Tue, 04 Mar 2008 14:48:52 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/04/gitmo-and-gulag/#comment-230785 4: if the Internet had been invented in the Augustan Age, <i>every</i> page would be a declamation page. 4: if the Internet had been invented in the Augustan Age, every page would be a declamation page.

]]> By: Anderson http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/04/gitmo-and-gulag/comment-page-1/#comment-230783 Anderson Tue, 04 Mar 2008 14:35:02 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/04/gitmo-and-gulag/#comment-230783 Alas, the link to The Other Quiggin is blocked by my handy workplace filter, which thinks the page is a "chat" page. If only T. Quiggin had declaimed, pronounced, or avowed, rather than merely chatting. Alas, the link to The Other Quiggin is blocked by my handy workplace filter, which thinks the page is a “chat” page.

If only T. Quiggin had declaimed, pronounced, or avowed, rather than merely chatting.

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