Comments on: But for the grace of God &c. http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/but-for-the-grace-of-god-c/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sun, 14 Mar 2010 14:41:54 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Righteous Bubba http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/but-for-the-grace-of-god-c/comment-page-1/#comment-231698 Righteous Bubba Mon, 10 Mar 2008 22:56:05 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/but-for-the-grace-of-god-c/#comment-231698 <i>the Obama people have removed from the party the democratic vaules of fairness, integrity, and respect for others.</i> Well then clearly St. Hillary cannot win and should give up. the Obama people have removed from the party the democratic vaules of fairness, integrity, and respect for others.

Well then clearly St. Hillary cannot win and should give up.

]]> By: Will http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/but-for-the-grace-of-god-c/comment-page-1/#comment-231697 Will Mon, 10 Mar 2008 22:51:08 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/but-for-the-grace-of-god-c/#comment-231697 I must be living in another Universe. It's ok to call Hillary a monster, ok for Michelle Obama to call Bill Clinton a racist on national television. The media smear camapign against Hillary is ok, as are the disgusting insults flying from the Obama blogs. Actually it's not a different Universe but another set of values; and the Obama people have removed from the party the democratic vaules of fairness, integrity, and respect for others. http://a-civilife.blogspot.com I must be living in another Universe. It’s ok to call Hillary a monster, ok for Michelle Obama to call Bill Clinton a racist on national television. The media smear camapign against Hillary is ok, as are the disgusting insults flying from the Obama blogs. Actually it’s not a different Universe but another set of values; and the Obama people have removed from the party the democratic vaules of fairness, integrity, and respect for others. http://a-civilife.blogspot.com

]]> By: akatsuki http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/but-for-the-grace-of-god-c/comment-page-1/#comment-231597 akatsuki Mon, 10 Mar 2008 14:46:23 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/but-for-the-grace-of-god-c/#comment-231597 Powers resigned almost immediately, and I have a feeling it was not like Obama had to force her to do it. She knew that the campaign message would be harmed if she stayed in and she fell on her sword... Guaranteed she will come out of this ahead in the long run. As for Obama's remarks about Reagan, the only people who claim not to understand his remarks are HRC supporters who can't understand why the right reveres Reagan. Regardless of your opinion of Reagan (and mine is very very low) he was dynamic and changed politics forever in this country. HRC's comments on the other hand were aimed at eviscerating Obama in the general campaign and a complete party betrayal. That is pretty "monsterish" from a partisan perspective so I don't think it too extreme to find that Powers was upset. Powers resigned almost immediately, and I have a feeling it was not like Obama had to force her to do it. She knew that the campaign message would be harmed if she stayed in and she fell on her sword… Guaranteed she will come out of this ahead in the long run.

As for Obama’s remarks about Reagan, the only people who claim not to understand his remarks are HRC supporters who can’t understand why the right reveres Reagan. Regardless of your opinion of Reagan (and mine is very very low) he was dynamic and changed politics forever in this country. HRC’s comments on the other hand were aimed at eviscerating Obama in the general campaign and a complete party betrayal. That is pretty “monsterish” from a partisan perspective so I don’t think it too extreme to find that Powers was upset.

]]> By: Club Troppo » Missing Link Daily http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/but-for-the-grace-of-god-c/comment-page-1/#comment-231454 Club Troppo » Missing Link Daily Sun, 09 Mar 2008 11:36:25 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/but-for-the-grace-of-god-c/#comment-231454 [...] of an Obama campaign worker who called Hillary Clinton a monster in an unguarded moment,  while Henry Farrell muses that it shows just how bad most blogging academics would be at real world [...] [...] of an Obama campaign worker who called Hillary Clinton a monster in an unguarded moment,  while Henry Farrell muses that it shows just how bad most blogging academics would be at real world [...]

]]> By: Sortition http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/but-for-the-grace-of-god-c/comment-page-1/#comment-231446 Sortition Sun, 09 Mar 2008 06:27:50 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/but-for-the-grace-of-god-c/#comment-231446 I have seen the original video, and I find Obama's comments offensive, but, I presume, quite revealing of his way of thinking. By the way, if Obama had indeed praised McCain for heroism that would be more along the same lines: McCain was taking an active part in a war crime perpetrated by the U.S. against the people of Vietnam and neighboring countries. The only way you can be a hero in this context is by refusing to go. I have seen the original video, and I find Obama’s comments offensive, but, I presume, quite revealing of his way of thinking. By the way, if Obama had indeed praised McCain for heroism that would be more along the same lines: McCain was taking an active part in a war crime perpetrated by the U.S. against the people of Vietnam and neighboring countries. The only way you can be a hero in this context is by refusing to go.

]]> By: Colin Danby http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/but-for-the-grace-of-god-c/comment-page-1/#comment-231437 Colin Danby Sun, 09 Mar 2008 03:11:42 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/but-for-the-grace-of-god-c/#comment-231437 You might want to be just a tiny bit more careful in your quoting, sortition. And as the NYT page shows Obama's remarks on Reagan are pretty banal, and if you look the original video http://news.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080115/VIDEO/80115026&oaso=news.rgj.com/breakingnews you see that they are mere stage-setting for a larger argument. (In any case, Bill C is not running for President.) It's surprising how many people have gone nuts over these innocent remarks. The point you're avoiding is not that HRC praised McC -- I don't see objection above to that by itself (BHO himself has praised McC's heroism) -- but that she has been saying explicitly that BHO is unfit to be Commander in Chief, and saying that in the context of a comparison between McC and BHO. Now how that fits with the Clinton campaign's simultaneous suggestions that BHO would be a fine Vice President http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/03/bill-clinton-ca.html is beyond me, because obviously you would never choose someone incompetent to be C in C as your Vice President, right? A suspicious person might suspect the Clinton campaign of insincerity. You might want to be just a tiny bit more careful in your quoting, sortition.

And as the NYT page shows Obama’s remarks on Reagan are pretty banal, and if you look the original video
http://news.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080115/VIDEO/80115026&oaso=news.rgj.com/breakingnews
you see that they are mere stage-setting for a larger argument. (In any case, Bill C is not running for President.) It’s surprising how many people have gone nuts over these innocent remarks.

The point you’re avoiding is not that HRC praised McC—I don’t see objection above to that by itself (BHO himself has praised McC’s heroism)—but that she has been saying explicitly that BHO is unfit to be Commander in Chief, and saying that in the context of a comparison between McC and BHO.

Now how that fits with the Clinton campaign’s simultaneous suggestions that BHO would be a fine Vice President
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/03/bill-clinton-ca.html
is beyond me, because obviously you would never choose someone incompetent to be C in C as your Vice President, right? A suspicious person might suspect the Clinton campaign of insincerity.

]]> By: Sortition http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/but-for-the-grace-of-god-c/comment-page-1/#comment-231418 Sortition Sat, 08 Mar 2008 21:15:01 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/but-for-the-grace-of-god-c/#comment-231418 <blockquote>Praise for dead Republicans (whether deserved or not) does no harm at all to currently active Democrats.</blockquote> 1. I must admit that this kind of tactical consideration did not occur to me - I find it rather superficial. 2. Even this tactical argument is rather weak: Obama's praise for Reagan was done at the expense of the Clinton presidency and, by association, at the expense of Hillary Clinton and so could be detrimental to her chances of being elected. 3. If Ron's concern is tactical, rather than a matter of principle, then his position is self-contradictory. For in that case surely he must support any Democratic candidate rather than risk having McCain elected.
Praise for dead Republicans (whether deserved or not) does no harm at all to currently active Democrats.

1. I must admit that this kind of tactical consideration did not occur to me – I find it rather superficial.

2. Even this tactical argument is rather weak: Obama’s praise for Reagan was done at the expense of the Clinton presidency and, by association, at the expense of Hillary Clinton and so could be detrimental to her chances of being elected.

3. If Ron’s concern is tactical, rather than a matter of principle, then his position is self-contradictory. For in that case surely he must support any Democratic candidate rather than risk having McCain elected.

]]> By: Kevin Donoghue http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/but-for-the-grace-of-god-c/comment-page-1/#comment-231413 Kevin Donoghue Sat, 08 Mar 2008 19:40:35 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/but-for-the-grace-of-god-c/#comment-231413 That's a strange question, Sortition. Praise for dead Republicans (whether deserved or not) does no harm at all to currently active Democrats. Even Jimmy Carter is unlikely to be offended by Obama's praise for Reagan. That’s a strange question, Sortition. Praise for dead Republicans (whether deserved or not) does no harm at all to currently active Democrats. Even Jimmy Carter is unlikely to be offended by Obama’s praise for Reagan.

]]> By: Sortition http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/but-for-the-grace-of-god-c/comment-page-1/#comment-231412 Sortition Sat, 08 Mar 2008 19:06:50 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/but-for-the-grace-of-god-c/#comment-231412 <blockquote>In any event, until her attack on Obama, I for one found myself in that comfortable position where I could support either candidate. Not so after Clinton’s endorsement of McCain over Obama. My guess is that that’s the way her attacks will ultimately play with progessives (and congenital democratcs.)</blockquote> I find both Democratic candidates rather repellent, but I am just wondering in what way is Clinton praising McCain's experience is worse than Obama praising Reagan's "<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/ref/us/politics/21seelye-text.html" rel="nofollow">clarity ... optimism ... dynamism and entrepreneurship.</a>"
In any event, until her attack on Obama, I for one found myself in that comfortable position where I could support either candidate. Not so after Clinton’s endorsement of McCain over Obama. My guess is that that’s the way her attacks will ultimately play with progessives (and congenital democratcs.)

I find both Democratic candidates rather repellent, but I am just wondering in what way is Clinton praising McCain’s experience is worse than Obama praising Reagan’s “clarity … optimism … dynamism and entrepreneurship.”

]]> By: Ron http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/but-for-the-grace-of-god-c/comment-page-1/#comment-231409 Ron Sat, 08 Mar 2008 17:57:32 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/but-for-the-grace-of-god-c/#comment-231409 Katherine: You're of course right that Power's comment was overtly and directly personal in a way that Clinton's was not. That, however, is an observation on the form of their remarks and not the content. Clinton's crack says of Obama that he has no experience worth respecting other than that speech, if that. Obviously, he, she thinks, has been unable to make anything of his time on the streets of Chicago or in the Senate chambers. For that matter, length of experience is no criterion. The important question is what did you do with your time? Did you do good things? Clinton still has to face that question: her record on Iraq is clearly example of experience that needs interrogating. In any event, until her attack on Obama, I for one found myself in that comfortable position where I could support either candidate. Not so after Clinton's endorsement of McCain over Obama. My guess is that that's the way her attacks will ultimately play with progessives (and congenital democratcs.) Katherine:

You’re of course right that Power’s comment was overtly and directly personal in a way that Clinton’s was not.

That, however, is an observation on the form of their remarks and not the content. Clinton’s crack says of Obama that he has no experience worth respecting other than that speech, if that. Obviously, he, she thinks, has been unable to make anything of his time on the streets of Chicago or in the Senate chambers.

For that matter, length of experience is no criterion. The important question is what did you do with your time? Did you do good things? Clinton still has to face that question: her record on Iraq is clearly example of experience that needs interrogating.

In any event, until her attack on Obama, I for one found myself in that comfortable position where I could support either candidate. Not so after Clinton’s endorsement of McCain over Obama. My guess is that that’s the way her attacks will ultimately play with progessives (and congenital democratcs.)

]]> By: RobDP http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/but-for-the-grace-of-god-c/comment-page-1/#comment-231384 RobDP Sat, 08 Mar 2008 09:39:20 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/but-for-the-grace-of-god-c/#comment-231384 The World Service also held a <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/programmes/the_interview.shtml" rel="nofollow">fascinating interview</a> just 24 hours before Power resigned. One of the questions Power gets asked is about "holding her tongue" and "playing the game" in politics. You also get lots about her impressions of Obama, though to me this increasingly felt like more use of a psychological study of the effects of the Obamacult than insightful into his character... The World Service also held a fascinating interview just 24 hours before Power resigned. One of the questions Power gets asked is about “holding her tongue” and “playing the game” in politics. You also get lots about her impressions of Obama, though to me this increasingly felt like more use of a psychological study of the effects of the Obamacult than insightful into his character…

]]> By: Katherine http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/but-for-the-grace-of-god-c/comment-page-1/#comment-231383 Katherine Sat, 08 Mar 2008 09:30:56 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/but-for-the-grace-of-god-c/#comment-231383 Ron, I supposed Power's "sin" (which I don't think it is very much, actually) is that calling someone a monster is personally abusive. Expressing an opinion on someone's experience (whether or not you agree that that opinion is correct, which I don't) goes to ability. Ron, I supposed Power’s “sin” (which I don’t think it is very much, actually) is that calling someone a monster is personally abusive. Expressing an opinion on someone’s experience (whether or not you agree that that opinion is correct, which I don’t) goes to ability.

]]> By: bi http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/but-for-the-grace-of-god-c/comment-page-1/#comment-231371 bi Sat, 08 Mar 2008 04:17:07 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/but-for-the-grace-of-god-c/#comment-231371 Why yes, Clinton should be judged by her public record, while Power should be judged by a quick remark she made. Goo goo goo joob... Why yes, Clinton should be judged by her public record, while Power should be judged by a quick remark she made.

Goo goo goo joob…

]]> By: Sortition http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/but-for-the-grace-of-god-c/comment-page-1/#comment-231367 Sortition Sat, 08 Mar 2008 03:57:13 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/but-for-the-grace-of-god-c/#comment-231367 The real issue should not be Power's indiscretion at expressing herself in impolitic ways but the fact that she judges Clinton, who has a long public record, on the basis of how she handles her fight with Obama. It seems that the personality cult within the Obama campaign staff is such that political opponents are seen monsters - only monsters would dare criticize the chosen one. The real issue should not be Power’s indiscretion at expressing herself in impolitic ways but the fact that she judges Clinton, who has a long public record, on the basis of how she handles her fight with Obama. It seems that the personality cult within the Obama campaign staff is such that political opponents are seen monsters – only monsters would dare criticize the chosen one.

]]> By: Ron http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/but-for-the-grace-of-god-c/comment-page-1/#comment-231356 Ron Sat, 08 Mar 2008 02:43:36 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/but-for-the-grace-of-god-c/#comment-231356 Here's what Hillary Clinton said of a fellow Democrat, suggesting that McCain, a man indifferent to the length of the American occupation in Iraq, is preferable to Obama, yet no one will suggest that she should now resign her candidacy. “I think you'll be able to imagine many things Senator McCain will be able to say,…He’s never been the president, but he will put forth his lifetime of experience. I will put forth my lifetime of experience. Senator Obama will put forth a speech he made in 2002.” And she is a professional politician. Why is Power's sin the greater? Here’s what Hillary Clinton said of a fellow Democrat, suggesting that McCain, a man indifferent to the length of the American occupation in Iraq, is preferable to Obama, yet no one will suggest that she should now resign her candidacy.

“I think you’ll be able to imagine many things Senator McCain will be able to say,…He’s never been the president, but he will put forth his lifetime of experience. I will put forth my lifetime of experience. Senator Obama will put forth a speech he made in 2002.”

And she is a professional politician. Why is Power’s sin the greater?

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