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	<title>Comments on: Don&#8217;t worry, you don&#8217;t have to think all that carefully in order to vote</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/dont-worry-you-dont-have-to-think-all-that-carefully-in-order-to-vote/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/dont-worry-you-dont-have-to-think-all-that-carefully-in-order-to-vote/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Michael Mouse</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/dont-worry-you-dont-have-to-think-all-that-carefully-in-order-to-vote/comment-page-1/#comment-231568</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Mouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Mar 2008 12:04:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/dont-worry-you-dont-have-to-think-all-that-carefully-in-order-to-vote/#comment-231568</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;if there actually was an election for the post of Official Pronouncer General of Crookedtimber.org, and it was a two horse race, you against me, with a sufficiently large electorate of voters slightly more than 50% likely to make the right decision, I bet I’d win.&lt;/em&gt;

But bet at what odds?  

Obviously, we must set up a toy electoral prediction market.  And then save ourselves the bother of actually running the election.

(&lt;em&gt;I&lt;/em&gt; bet nobody bothers.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><em>if there actually was an election for the post of Official Pronouncer General of Crookedtimber.org, and it was a two horse race, you against me, with a sufficiently large electorate of voters slightly more than 50% likely to make the right decision, I bet I&#8217;d win.</em></p>

	<p>But bet at what odds?</p>

	<p>Obviously, we must set up a toy electoral prediction market.  And then save ourselves the bother of actually running the election.</p>

	<p>(<em>I</em> bet nobody bothers.)</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Wisse</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/dont-worry-you-dont-have-to-think-all-that-carefully-in-order-to-vote/comment-page-1/#comment-231565</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Wisse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Mar 2008 11:23:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/dont-worry-you-dont-have-to-think-all-that-carefully-in-order-to-vote/#comment-231565</guid>
		<description>In the end, voting makes barely any difference, so what does it matter if you vote correctly or not, or not at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>In the end, voting makes barely any difference, so what does it matter if you vote correctly or not, or not at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/dont-worry-you-dont-have-to-think-all-that-carefully-in-order-to-vote/comment-page-1/#comment-231498</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Mar 2008 22:14:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/dont-worry-you-dont-have-to-think-all-that-carefully-in-order-to-vote/#comment-231498</guid>
		<description>The Condorcet Jury Theorem does not apply in this context.  It presupposes that the voters all share the same goals (e.g. convicting the guilty and acquitting the innocent).  In that circumstance, if every individual is more likely to be right than wrong, then majority rule should be accurate for binary choices in arbitrarily large groups.

The Condorcet Jury Theorem is also undermined by strategic behavior -- which, in this context, refers to rational individual use of available information.  For the CJT to work, individuals have to vote according to their own beliefs about the truth.  The theorem is then just a result of the law of large numbers.

Voters do not share identical preferences over outcomes in most elections.  &quot;More likely to be right than wrong&quot; is meaningless when voters have genuine disagreements about what is &quot;right.&quot;  

Moreover, voters are aware of what large numbers of other voters think.  If I think that x is true, but I know that a majority of other voters think y is true, and I know that people are more likely to be right than wrong, then I may vote for y.  This is perfectly rational from my perspective, but the CDT doesn&#039;t work when individuals aggregate information this way before voting.  At least, that&#039;s my understanding of the recent work by Fedderson and Pesendorfer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The Condorcet Jury Theorem does not apply in this context.  It presupposes that the voters all share the same goals (e.g. convicting the guilty and acquitting the innocent).  In that circumstance, if every individual is more likely to be right than wrong, then majority rule should be accurate for binary choices in arbitrarily large groups.</p>

	<p>The Condorcet Jury Theorem is also undermined by strategic behavior&#8212;which, in this context, refers to rational individual use of available information.  For the <span class="caps">CJT</span> to work, individuals have to vote according to their own beliefs about the truth.  The theorem is then just a result of the law of large numbers.</p>

	<p>Voters do not share identical preferences over outcomes in most elections.  &#8220;More likely to be right than wrong&#8221; is meaningless when voters have genuine disagreements about what is &#8220;right.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Moreover, voters are aware of what large numbers of other voters think.  If I think that x is true, but I know that a majority of other voters think y is true, and I know that people are more likely to be right than wrong, then I may vote for y.  This is perfectly rational from my perspective, but the <span class="caps">CDT</span> doesn&#8217;t work when individuals aggregate information this way before voting.  At least, that&#8217;s my understanding of the recent work by Fedderson and Pesendorfer.</p>
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		<title>By: dan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/dont-worry-you-dont-have-to-think-all-that-carefully-in-order-to-vote/comment-page-1/#comment-231415</link>
		<dc:creator>dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Mar 2008 20:24:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/dont-worry-you-dont-have-to-think-all-that-carefully-in-order-to-vote/#comment-231415</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;as you have implicitly recognised by issuing your own pronouncements&lt;/i&gt;

But he didn&#039;t issue any pronouncements. He asked questions and made one qualified statement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>as you have implicitly recognised by issuing your own pronouncements</i></p>

	<p>But he didn&#8217;t issue any pronouncements. He asked questions and made one qualified statement.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/dont-worry-you-dont-have-to-think-all-that-carefully-in-order-to-vote/comment-page-1/#comment-231411</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Mar 2008 18:42:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/dont-worry-you-dont-have-to-think-all-that-carefully-in-order-to-vote/#comment-231411</guid>
		<description>For a start, Katha Pollit on the Washington post &quot;women are stupid column&quot; is a much better putdown.

Dsqared, of course, you&#039;d get more than half the votes if it were a two person field. For one thing, I&#039;d vote for you over me in a heartbeat. Of course, I wouldn&#039;t think too much about it in that heartbeat, but I bet we&#039;d all count the vote.

I read the blog regularly. Comment too. It&#039;s not just Berube. If it were a three person race, he&#039;d probably win, you&#039;d come second, and we could bar anyone who voted for me from ever voting (for anything) again.

I&#039;m not sure about the pompous thing, though. And just so you know, it stung.

The point I was trying to make is that there are all sorts of non-frivolous reasons for voting, and to me it sounds like you&#039;re defining &quot;non-frivolous&quot; in a way that sounds suspiciously like, &quot;accords with my notion of seriousness, which is, by the way, the right notion.&quot; As a veteran of the canon wars in literature, where I heard an English professor in 1975 claim that there were no &quot;serious&quot; literary artists in the United States and never had been, that sort of thing gets my back up.

And my concern is exactly this: I tend to think that people who will vote for Ron Paul or Ralph Nader aren&#039;t being &quot;serious.&quot; But I don&#039;t think I&#039;m the one who gets to decide.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>For a start, Katha Pollit on the Washington post &#8220;women are stupid column&#8221; is a much better putdown.</p>

	<p>Dsqared, of course, you&#8217;d get more than half the votes if it were a two person field. For one thing, I&#8217;d vote for you over me in a heartbeat. Of course, I wouldn&#8217;t think too much about it in that heartbeat, but I bet we&#8217;d all count the vote.</p>

	<p>I read the blog regularly. Comment too. It&#8217;s not just Berube. If it were a three person race, he&#8217;d probably win, you&#8217;d come second, and we could bar anyone who voted for me from ever voting (for anything) again.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m not sure about the pompous thing, though. And just so you know, it stung.</p>

	<p>The point I was trying to make is that there are all sorts of non-frivolous reasons for voting, and to me it sounds like you&#8217;re defining &#8220;non-frivolous&#8221; in a way that sounds suspiciously like, &#8220;accords with my notion of seriousness, which is, by the way, the right notion.&#8221; As a veteran of the canon wars in literature, where I heard an English professor in 1975 claim that there were no &#8220;serious&#8221; literary artists in the United States and never had been, that sort of thing gets my back up.</p>

	<p>And my concern is exactly this: I tend to think that people who will vote for Ron Paul or Ralph Nader aren&#8217;t being &#8220;serious.&#8221; But I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;m the one who gets to decide.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/dont-worry-you-dont-have-to-think-all-that-carefully-in-order-to-vote/comment-page-1/#comment-231404</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Mar 2008 16:33:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/dont-worry-you-dont-have-to-think-all-that-carefully-in-order-to-vote/#comment-231404</guid>
		<description>Buy a lottery ticket, and give your winnings to charity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Buy a lottery ticket, and give your winnings to charity.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Hurka</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/dont-worry-you-dont-have-to-think-all-that-carefully-in-order-to-vote/comment-page-1/#comment-231397</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Hurka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Mar 2008 14:29:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/dont-worry-you-dont-have-to-think-all-that-carefully-in-order-to-vote/#comment-231397</guid>
		<description>Voting is only a waste of time if you&#039;re motivated just by self-interest. If you care about other people, then although your vote has only a tiny chance of making a difference, it would, if it did, make an enormous difference -- e.g. Gore rather than Bush might have saved tens of thousands of lives. And a small probability of an enormous difference can be worth going for.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Voting is only a waste of time if you&#8217;re motivated just by self-interest. If you care about other people, then although your vote has only a tiny chance of making a difference, it would, if it did, make an enormous difference&#8212;e.g. Gore rather than Bush might have saved tens of thousands of lives. And a small probability of an enormous difference can be worth going for.</p>
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		<title>By: Sortition</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/dont-worry-you-dont-have-to-think-all-that-carefully-in-order-to-vote/comment-page-1/#comment-231372</link>
		<dc:creator>Sortition</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Mar 2008 04:19:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/dont-worry-you-dont-have-to-think-all-that-carefully-in-order-to-vote/#comment-231372</guid>
		<description>Daniel wrote:

&lt;blockquote&gt;[M]athematics ... ensure that as long as the average voter has a slightly better than 50% chance of making the right decision and the electorate is large enough, the majority vote will be correct in a two horse race&lt;/blockquote&gt;

For this to be true an additional crucial assumption must be made: the votes cannot be very highly correlated. If voters are prone to make mistakes, &lt;i&gt;and make them in the same direction at the same time&lt;/i&gt; (because, for example, voters are swayed by clever TV ads and they all watch the same TV ads), then the errors do not cancel each other, and there is a good chance that the &quot;wrong&quot; candidate gets elected.

Thus, the difficult part is not getting to close to 100% chance of choosing the right candidate (50% + ε will do). The difficult part is making your mind in an independent way that is not manipulated in the same way that all the other voters are manipulated. Only then can you rely on the law of large numbers to do the job for you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Daniel wrote:</p>

	<p><blockquote>[M]athematics &#8230; ensure that as long as the average voter has a slightly better than 50% chance of making the right decision and the electorate is large enough, the majority vote will be correct in a two horse race</blockquote></p>

	<p>For this to be true an additional crucial assumption must be made: the votes cannot be very highly correlated. If voters are prone to make mistakes, <i>and make them in the same direction at the same time</i> (because, for example, voters are swayed by clever TV ads and they all watch the same TV ads), then the errors do not cancel each other, and there is a good chance that the &#8220;wrong&#8221; candidate gets elected.</p>

	<p>Thus, the difficult part is not getting to close to 100% chance of choosing the right candidate (50% + &#949; will do). The difficult part is making your mind in an independent way that is not manipulated in the same way that all the other voters are manipulated. Only then can you rely on the law of large numbers to do the job for you.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Hughes</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/dont-worry-you-dont-have-to-think-all-that-carefully-in-order-to-vote/comment-page-1/#comment-231359</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Hughes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Mar 2008 03:01:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/dont-worry-you-dont-have-to-think-all-that-carefully-in-order-to-vote/#comment-231359</guid>
		<description>I consider myself reasonably intelligent, but I guess I&#039;m also a self bastard because I do boycott the vote. :)

Anyway, that is a funny post!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I consider myself reasonably intelligent, but I guess I&#8217;m also a self bastard because I do boycott the vote. :)</p>

	<p>Anyway, that is a funny post!</p>
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		<title>By: qb</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/dont-worry-you-dont-have-to-think-all-that-carefully-in-order-to-vote/comment-page-1/#comment-231354</link>
		<dc:creator>qb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Mar 2008 02:30:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/dont-worry-you-dont-have-to-think-all-that-carefully-in-order-to-vote/#comment-231354</guid>
		<description>andrew: i believe the theorem supposes the vote is to determine an objective matter of fact and not merely a procedure to aggregate preferences.  hence &quot;jury&quot; theorem, where the objective is to determine guilt or innocence.  obviously this cannot simply be  plugged into a theory of voting for political representatives as is, but &lt;i&gt;mutatis mutandis&lt;/i&gt; it seems suggestive for this case as well.  the &#039;right decision&#039; here is the one that puts the &#039;best&#039; candidate in office on some fixed interpretation of &#039;best.&#039;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>andrew: i believe the theorem supposes the vote is to determine an objective matter of fact and not merely a procedure to aggregate preferences.  hence &#8220;jury&#8221; theorem, where the objective is to determine guilt or innocence.  obviously this cannot simply be  plugged into a theory of voting for political representatives as is, but <i>mutatis mutandis</i> it seems suggestive for this case as well.  the &#8216;right decision&#8217; here is the one that puts the &#8216;best&#8217; candidate in office on some fixed interpretation of &#8216;best.&#8217;</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Bartlett</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/dont-worry-you-dont-have-to-think-all-that-carefully-in-order-to-vote/comment-page-1/#comment-231349</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Bartlett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Mar 2008 01:40:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/dont-worry-you-dont-have-to-think-all-that-carefully-in-order-to-vote/#comment-231349</guid>
		<description>What is the &#039;right decision&#039;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>What is the &#8216;right decision&#8217;?</p>
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		<title>By: qb</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/dont-worry-you-dont-have-to-think-all-that-carefully-in-order-to-vote/comment-page-1/#comment-231342</link>
		<dc:creator>qb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Mar 2008 00:28:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/dont-worry-you-dont-have-to-think-all-that-carefully-in-order-to-vote/#comment-231342</guid>
		<description>i suppose the implication of Case 4 is that reasonably intelligent but selfish bastards tend to vote incorrectly and might thereby undermine Condorcet if there were enough of them?  we are so totally screwed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>i suppose the implication of Case 4 is that reasonably intelligent but selfish bastards tend to vote incorrectly and might thereby undermine Condorcet if there were enough of them?  we are so totally screwed.</p>
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		<title>By: Total</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/dont-worry-you-dont-have-to-think-all-that-carefully-in-order-to-vote/comment-page-1/#comment-231331</link>
		<dc:creator>Total</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Mar 2008 23:09:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/dont-worry-you-dont-have-to-think-all-that-carefully-in-order-to-vote/#comment-231331</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Best. Putdown. Ever.&lt;/i&gt;

Yeah, it&#039;s right up there with Churchill&#039;s &quot;A modest man, who has much to be modest about.&quot;

Like the original post, the putdown was overwritten.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Best. Putdown. Ever.</i></p>

	<p>Yeah, it&#8217;s right up there with Churchill&#8217;s &#8220;A modest man, who has much to be modest about.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Like the original post, the putdown was overwritten.</p>
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		<title>By: lemuel pitkin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/dont-worry-you-dont-have-to-think-all-that-carefully-in-order-to-vote/comment-page-1/#comment-231330</link>
		<dc:creator>lemuel pitkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Mar 2008 22:55:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/dont-worry-you-dont-have-to-think-all-that-carefully-in-order-to-vote/#comment-231330</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;if there actually was an election for the post of Official Pronouncer General of Crookedtimber.org, and it was a two horse race, you against me, with a sufficiently large electorate of voters slightly more than 50% likely to make the right decision, I bet I’d win.&lt;/i&gt;

Best. Putdown. Ever.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>if there actually was an election for the post of Official Pronouncer General of Crookedtimber.org, and it was a two horse race, you against me, with a sufficiently large electorate of voters slightly more than 50% likely to make the right decision, I bet I&#8217;d win.</i></p>

	<p>Best. Putdown. Ever.</p>
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		<title>By: geo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/dont-worry-you-dont-have-to-think-all-that-carefully-in-order-to-vote/comment-page-1/#comment-231318</link>
		<dc:creator>geo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Mar 2008 21:55:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/07/dont-worry-you-dont-have-to-think-all-that-carefully-in-order-to-vote/#comment-231318</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;That sounds like pretty hard work doesn’t it?&lt;/i&gt;

Not in the US, it isn&#039;t. Just vote against the Republicans, no matter who the individual candidates are. A Republican congressional majority is the ultimate disaster.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>That sounds like pretty hard work doesn&#8217;t it?</i></p>

	<p>Not in the US, it isn&#8217;t. Just vote against the Republicans, no matter who the individual candidates are. A Republican congressional majority is the ultimate disaster.</p>
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