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	<title>Comments on: The department of &#8220;huh&#8221;? is the only growth industry round here</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/09/the-department-of-huh-is-the-only-growth-industry-round-here/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/09/the-department-of-huh-is-the-only-growth-industry-round-here/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Das Philoblog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Diskussion über Walzer</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/09/the-department-of-huh-is-the-only-growth-industry-round-here/comment-page-2/#comment-232908</link>
		<dc:creator>Das Philoblog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Diskussion über Walzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2008 07:23:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/09/the-department-of-huh-is-the-only-growth-industry-round-here/#comment-232908</guid>
		<description>[...] Crooked Timber gibt es eine kritische Diskussion zu Michael Walzers Positionen über Krieg und Linke, wie er sie [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] Crooked Timber gibt es eine kritische Diskussion zu Michael Walzers Positionen &#252;ber Krieg und Linke, wie er sie [...]</p>
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		<title>By: dsquared</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/09/the-department-of-huh-is-the-only-growth-industry-round-here/comment-page-2/#comment-231949</link>
		<dc:creator>dsquared</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 19:44:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/09/the-department-of-huh-is-the-only-growth-industry-round-here/#comment-231949</guid>
		<description>Coo crikey!  Off on a business trip for two days and called an anti-Semite on my own thread, on the strength of something somebody else wrote!  What an honour.

Of course, I couldn&#039;t have achieved this without a lot of help.  So in many ways, this accolade isn&#039;t just for me, it&#039;s also for Russell, who made a quite intelligent comment &lt;i&gt;in support of Walzer&lt;/i&gt;, which I for one (and seemingly the only one) understood.  It&#039;s also of course for John M, who managed to not only misunderstand Russell&#039;s point, but also to use it as the basis for an attempt to smear everyone at CT (presumably including Eszter and Micah?) as anti-Semites, on the basis of our regularly posting about Israel (except that we don&#039;t) and never censoring anti-Semitic comments (except that we do).  Ragout, I&#039;m afraid you&#039;ll have to make do with a Best Supporting award of some kind.

Oh, I &lt;i&gt;do&lt;/i&gt; love the internets.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Coo crikey!  Off on a business trip for two days and called an anti-Semite on my own thread, on the strength of something somebody else wrote!  What an honour.</p>

	<p>Of course, I couldn&#8217;t have achieved this without a lot of help.  So in many ways, this accolade isn&#8217;t just for me, it&#8217;s also for Russell, who made a quite intelligent comment <i>in support of Walzer</i>, which I for one (and seemingly the only one) understood.  It&#8217;s also of course for John M, who managed to not only misunderstand Russell&#8217;s point, but also to use it as the basis for an attempt to smear everyone at <span class="caps">CT </span>(presumably including Eszter and Micah?) as anti-Semites, on the basis of our regularly posting about Israel (except that we don&#8217;t) and never censoring anti-Semitic comments (except that we do).  Ragout, I&#8217;m afraid you&#8217;ll have to make do with a Best Supporting award of some kind.</p>

	<p>Oh, I <i>do</i> love the internets.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/09/the-department-of-huh-is-the-only-growth-industry-round-here/comment-page-2/#comment-231947</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 19:40:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&quot;friend&quot; in a sense of &quot;comrade&quot;, &quot;ally&quot;, or, rather, &quot;sidekick&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;friend&#8221; in a sense of &#8220;comrade&#8221;, &#8220;ally&#8221;, or, rather, &#8220;sidekick&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/09/the-department-of-huh-is-the-only-growth-industry-round-here/comment-page-2/#comment-231941</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 19:34:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>@82, I don&#039;t know what the deal is with this MONUC, but this must be some kind of exception; typically they try real hard not to get involved into military activities. And I hope they&#039;ll have enough sense to keep it that way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>@82, I don&#8217;t know what the deal is with this <span class="caps">MONUC</span>, but this must be some kind of exception; typically they try real hard not to get involved into military activities. And I hope they&#8217;ll have enough sense to keep it that way.</p>
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		<title>By: Beryl</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/09/the-department-of-huh-is-the-only-growth-industry-round-here/comment-page-2/#comment-231940</link>
		<dc:creator>Beryl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 19:34:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/09/the-department-of-huh-is-the-only-growth-industry-round-here/#comment-231940</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;And when a friend of Alan Dershowitz and Martin Peretz&lt;/i&gt;

I thought the formulation was that being (best) &#039;friends&#039; with some people is inoculative?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>And when a friend of Alan Dershowitz and Martin Peretz</i></p>

	<p>I thought the formulation was that being (best) &#8216;friends&#8217; with some people is inoculative?</p>
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		<title>By: geo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/09/the-department-of-huh-is-the-only-growth-industry-round-here/comment-page-2/#comment-231919</link>
		<dc:creator>geo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 17:53:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/09/the-department-of-huh-is-the-only-growth-industry-round-here/#comment-231919</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve tried several times now (in #s 53, 65, and 69) to explain the sentence that offends Ragout, John M, and (according to John M), &quot;most people.&quot; A final supplement: in the great controversy between Charles Kingsley and Cardinal Newman that led to &lt;i&gt;Apologia Pro Vita Sua&lt;/i&gt;, Kingsley remarks on Newman&#039;s practice of &quot;writing a whole sermon, not for the sake of the text or of the matter, but for the sake of one single passing hint -- one phrase, one epithet, one little barbed arrow which, as he swept magnificently past on the stream of his calm eloquence, seemingly unconscious of all presences, save those unseen, he delivered unheeded, as with his finger-tip, to the very heart of an initiated hearer, never to be withdrawn again.&quot; Significantly, Kingsley adds: &quot;I do not blame him for that. It is one of the highest triumphs of oratoric power, and may be employed honestly and fairly, by any person who has the skill to do it honestly and fairly.&quot; 

I hope the application is clear. I was drawing attention to what seems to me Walzer&#039;s frequent rhetorical practice of working in digs at &quot;irresponsible&quot; leftists and international institutions, even when they are not, in fact, &quot;the text or the matter.&quot; Like Kingsley, I admit that this sort of thing is not always objectionable. But it&#039;s a little ambiguous, especially in a revered moral philosopher. I just wanted to draw attention to it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;ve tried several times now (in #s 53, 65, and 69) to explain the sentence that offends Ragout, John M, and (according to John M), &#8220;most people.&#8221; A final supplement: in the great controversy between Charles Kingsley and Cardinal Newman that led to <i>Apologia Pro Vita Sua</i>, Kingsley remarks on Newman&#8217;s practice of &#8220;writing a whole sermon, not for the sake of the text or of the matter, but for the sake of one single passing hint&#8212;one phrase, one epithet, one little barbed arrow which, as he swept magnificently past on the stream of his calm eloquence, seemingly unconscious of all presences, save those unseen, he delivered unheeded, as with his finger-tip, to the very heart of an initiated hearer, never to be withdrawn again.&#8221; Significantly, Kingsley adds: &#8220;I do not blame him for that. It is one of the highest triumphs of oratoric power, and may be employed honestly and fairly, by any person who has the skill to do it honestly and fairly.&#8221;</p>

	<p>I hope the application is clear. I was drawing attention to what seems to me Walzer&#8217;s frequent rhetorical practice of working in digs at &#8220;irresponsible&#8221; leftists and international institutions, even when they are not, in fact, &#8220;the text or the matter.&#8221; Like Kingsley, I admit that this sort of thing is not always objectionable. But it&#8217;s a little ambiguous, especially in a revered moral philosopher. I just wanted to draw attention to it.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/09/the-department-of-huh-is-the-only-growth-industry-round-here/comment-page-2/#comment-231913</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 17:45:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/09/the-department-of-huh-is-the-only-growth-industry-round-here/#comment-231913</guid>
		<description>What prejudices, what are you talking about? That&#039;s just silly; nobody here needs your Bill O&#039;Reilly-style faux-psychoanalysis. You&#039;re trolling, man; either that or you&#039;re insane. In any case, you&#039;re embarrassing yourself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>What prejudices, what are you talking about? That&#8217;s just silly; nobody here needs your Bill O&#8217;Reilly-style faux-psychoanalysis. You&#8217;re trolling, man; either that or you&#8217;re insane. In any case, you&#8217;re embarrassing yourself.</p>
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		<title>By: c.l. ball</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/09/the-department-of-huh-is-the-only-growth-industry-round-here/comment-page-2/#comment-231901</link>
		<dc:creator>c.l. ball</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 17:12:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/09/the-department-of-huh-is-the-only-growth-industry-round-here/#comment-231901</guid>
		<description>Re 60

MONUC has over 16,000 troops in addition to other observers, police, and civilian personnel. MONUC has its own &quot;force commander&quot; and is authorized to &quot;to support operations to disarm foreign combatants led by the Armed Forces of the Democratic Republic of the Congo.&quot; It has killed people and will continue to do so both in self-defense, defense of others, and to disarm combatants. It engages in &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.monuc.org/News.aspx?newsId=9754&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;fire-fights&lt;/a&gt;.  The forces are organized into national contingent, but the command is UN based and they wear UN insignia.

This is not like the initial intervention in Somalia (MNF) or operations in Afghanistan, which receive UNSC authorization, but do not report to the Secretariat&#039;s DPKO. Similarly, France has had a separate national contingent in Côte d&#039;Ivoire (Force Unicorn) in addition to the UNOCI.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Re 60</p>

	<p><span class="caps">MONUC</span> has over 16,000 troops in addition to other observers, police, and civilian personnel. <span class="caps">MONUC</span> has its own &#8220;force commander&#8221; and is authorized to &#8220;to support operations to disarm foreign combatants led by the Armed Forces of the Democratic Republic of the Congo.&#8221; It has killed people and will continue to do so both in self-defense, defense of others, and to disarm combatants. It engages in <a href="http://www.monuc.org/News.aspx?newsId=9754" rel="nofollow">fire-fights</a>.  The forces are organized into national contingent, but the command is UN based and they wear UN insignia.</p>

	<p>This is not like the initial intervention in Somalia (MNF) or operations in Afghanistan, which receive <span class="caps">UNSC</span> authorization, but do not report to the Secretariat&#8217;s <span class="caps">DPKO</span>. Similarly, France has had a separate national contingent in C&#244;te d&#8217;Ivoire (Force Unicorn) in addition to the <span class="caps">UNOCI</span>.</p>
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		<title>By: John M</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/09/the-department-of-huh-is-the-only-growth-industry-round-here/comment-page-2/#comment-231892</link>
		<dc:creator>John M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 16:47:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/09/the-department-of-huh-is-the-only-growth-industry-round-here/#comment-231892</guid>
		<description>&quot;It certainly is connected to the topic of Israel. &quot;

No, it isn&#039;t. And the fact that the non-existent &#039;connection&#039; strikes you as so obvious and important should tell you something about your prejudices, in my opinion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;It certainly is connected to the topic of Israel. &#8221;</p>

	<p>No, it isn&#8217;t. And the fact that the non-existent &#8216;connection&#8217; strikes you as so obvious and important should tell you something about your prejudices, in my opinion.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/09/the-department-of-huh-is-the-only-growth-industry-round-here/comment-page-2/#comment-231873</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 15:45:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/09/the-department-of-huh-is-the-only-growth-industry-round-here/#comment-231873</guid>
		<description>It certainly &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; connected to the topic of Israel. Israel has been perpetratoring ethnic cleansing (and now, arguably, genocide) for many decades. And when a friend of Alan Dershowitz and Martin Peretz starts performing his &#039;STOP THE DARFUR GENOCIDE NOW!!!&#039; act, I&#039;m afraid one has gotta be willfully obtuse not to see the elephant in the living room.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It certainly <i>is</i> connected to the topic of Israel. Israel has been perpetratoring ethnic cleansing (and now, arguably, genocide) for many decades. And when a friend of Alan Dershowitz and Martin Peretz starts performing his &#8216;STOP <span class="caps">THE DARFUR GENOCIDE NOW</span><img src="!" alt="" border="0" />&#8217; act, I&#8217;m afraid one has gotta be willfully obtuse not to see the elephant in the living room.</p>
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		<title>By: John M</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/09/the-department-of-huh-is-the-only-growth-industry-round-here/comment-page-2/#comment-231825</link>
		<dc:creator>John M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 13:41:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/09/the-department-of-huh-is-the-only-growth-industry-round-here/#comment-231825</guid>
		<description>&quot;unless you’re going to suggest it is wrong to point out that a non-Israeli is enthusiastic about Israel’s policies.&quot;

Not wrong, but suggestive, when the discussion is not on the topic of Israel or in any way connected to the topic of Israel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;unless you&#8217;re going to suggest it is wrong to point out that a non-Israeli is enthusiastic about Israel&#8217;s policies.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Not wrong, but suggestive, when the discussion is not on the topic of Israel or in any way connected to the topic of Israel.</p>
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		<title>By: jholbo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/09/the-department-of-huh-is-the-only-growth-industry-round-here/comment-page-2/#comment-231818</link>
		<dc:creator>jholbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 13:24:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/09/the-department-of-huh-is-the-only-growth-industry-round-here/#comment-231818</guid>
		<description>&quot;I know the commentator has given himself lots of wriggle room&quot;

May I suggest that this would be a more appropriate sentiment for your tombstone, john m? The other one doesn&#039;t seem to suit. 

&quot;a bit whiffy when it comes to international affairs&quot;

might do as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;I know the commentator has given himself lots of wriggle room&#8221;</p>

	<p>May I suggest that this would be a more appropriate sentiment for your tombstone, john m? The other one doesn&#8217;t seem to suit.</p>

	<p>&#8220;a bit whiffy when it comes to international affairs&#8221;</p>

	<p>might do as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Ragout</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/09/the-department-of-huh-is-the-only-growth-industry-round-here/comment-page-2/#comment-231817</link>
		<dc:creator>Ragout</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 13:24:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/09/the-department-of-huh-is-the-only-growth-industry-round-here/#comment-231817</guid>
		<description>Magistra, I think the point you&#039;re missing is that the Walzer article had almost nothing to do with Israel.  So, claiming that Walzer&#039;s underlying motives actually involve Israel isn&#039;t a &quot;fair comment.&quot;  At best, it&#039;s an ad hominem argument.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Magistra, I think the point you&#8217;re missing is that the Walzer article had almost nothing to do with Israel.  So, claiming that Walzer&#8217;s underlying motives actually involve Israel isn&#8217;t a &#8220;fair comment.&#8221;  At best, it&#8217;s an ad hominem argument.</p>
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		<title>By: magistra</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/09/the-department-of-huh-is-the-only-growth-industry-round-here/comment-page-2/#comment-231812</link>
		<dc:creator>magistra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 13:06:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/09/the-department-of-huh-is-the-only-growth-industry-round-here/#comment-231812</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;The sort of posting that does strike me as coded anti-semitism, though, and which CT-ers are generally indulgent of is something like:

“I wonder if disparaging the UN and international law isn’t Walzer’s ultimate purpose here, since both of those are sometimes felt to be inconvenient by the government of Israel.” &lt;/i&gt;

But suppose someone posted, talking, say, about a conservative intellectual: &quot;I wonder if disparaging the UN and international law isn’t X&#039;s ultimate purpose here, since both of those are sometimes felt to be inconvenient by the government of the USA.&quot;?

I would take that to be a fair comment about a certain kind of enthusiast for US policy &lt;b&gt;regardless&lt;/b&gt; of whether or not X was American. So I don&#039;t see how the same comment becomes offensive just because it is used about an American supporting Israel&#039;s policy, unless you&#039;re going to suggest it is wrong to point out that a non-Israeli is enthusiastic about Israel&#039;s policies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>The sort of posting that does strike me as coded anti-semitism, though, and which CT-ers are generally indulgent of is something like:</i></p>

	<p>&#8220;I wonder if disparaging the UN and international law isn&#8217;t Walzer&#8217;s ultimate purpose here, since both of those are sometimes felt to be inconvenient by the government of Israel.&#8221; </p>

	<p>But suppose someone posted, talking, say, about a conservative intellectual: &#8220;I wonder if disparaging the UN and international law isn&#8217;t X&#8217;s ultimate purpose here, since both of those are sometimes felt to be inconvenient by the government of the <span class="caps">USA</span>.&#8221;?</p>

	<p>I would take that to be a fair comment about a certain kind of enthusiast for US policy <b>regardless</b> of whether or not X was American. So I don&#8217;t see how the same comment becomes offensive just because it is used about an American supporting Israel&#8217;s policy, unless you&#8217;re going to suggest it is wrong to point out that a non-Israeli is enthusiastic about Israel&#8217;s policies.</p>
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		<title>By: Ragout</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/09/the-department-of-huh-is-the-only-growth-industry-round-here/comment-page-2/#comment-231811</link>
		<dc:creator>Ragout</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 13:06:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/09/the-department-of-huh-is-the-only-growth-industry-round-here/#comment-231811</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Why? It’s a flat-out lie as has already been pointed out, and your weaselly endorsement of it (please don’t try to wriggle out of it) puts you in the same company as Meredith.&lt;/i&gt;

You&#039;re right, I&#039;ve argued at length in this thread that it&#039;s not a flat-out lie, just a little &quot;rhetorical excess.&quot;  John M, above, makes a similar argument. 

But suppose it was a flat-out lie?  Other flat-out lies like &quot;Walzer wants to kill the ragheads&quot; (a far worse slur) and &quot;Walzer doesn&#039;t mention Blackwaters&#039;s massacres&quot; generate no response.  Certainly nothing as heated as a comparison to Meredith (whatever that means).

Anyway, to answer your question, I&#039;m not surprised because it&#039;s common for even vague and mild accusations of antisemitism to generate a heated response on CT, while outright accusations of racism and genocidal intent against Arabs rarely get criticized, especially when the topic is Israel.  I don&#039;t claim to know why that is, it&#039;s just a pattern I&#039;ve noticed. Perhaps you have more insight into the causes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Why? It&#8217;s a flat-out lie as has already been pointed out, and your weaselly endorsement of it (please don&#8217;t try to wriggle out of it) puts you in the same company as Meredith.</i></p>

	<p>You&#8217;re right, I&#8217;ve argued at length in this thread that it&#8217;s not a flat-out lie, just a little &#8220;rhetorical excess.&#8221;  John M, above, makes a similar argument.</p>

	<p>But suppose it was a flat-out lie?  Other flat-out lies like &#8220;Walzer wants to kill the ragheads&#8221; (a far worse slur) and &#8220;Walzer doesn&#8217;t mention Blackwaters&#8217;s massacres&#8221; generate no response.  Certainly nothing as heated as a comparison to Meredith (whatever that means).</p>

	<p>Anyway, to answer your question, I&#8217;m not surprised because it&#8217;s common for even vague and mild accusations of antisemitism to generate a heated response on CT, while outright accusations of racism and genocidal intent against Arabs rarely get criticized, especially when the topic is Israel.  I don&#8217;t claim to know why that is, it&#8217;s just a pattern I&#8217;ve noticed. Perhaps you have more insight into the causes.</p>
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