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	<title>Comments on: On the Diminished Disgrace of Whores and Their Children in Our Day</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/11/on-the-diminished-disgrace-of-whores-and-their-children-in-our-day/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/11/on-the-diminished-disgrace-of-whores-and-their-children-in-our-day/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 02:13:42 -0800</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Diminished Disgrace &#171; Northernplanets</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/11/on-the-diminished-disgrace-of-whores-and-their-children-in-our-day/comment-page-1/#comment-233208</link>
		<dc:creator>Diminished Disgrace &#171; Northernplanets</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Mar 2008 01:24:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/11/on-the-diminished-disgrace-of-whores-and-their-children-in-our-day/#comment-233208</guid>
		<description>[...] What&#8217;s especially fascinating is that two hundred years ago, all the standards of conservative wingnuts were already in place. John Holbo of Crooked Timber has been reading 18th century German jurist and counter-Enlightenment intellectual Justus Möser and has found some doozies: [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] What&#8217;s especially fascinating is that two hundred years ago, all the standards of conservative wingnuts were already in place. John Holbo of Crooked Timber has been reading 18th century German jurist and counter-Enlightenment intellectual Justus M&#246;ser and has found some doozies: [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Spring Break Blogging Roundup &#171; The Long Eighteenth</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/11/on-the-diminished-disgrace-of-whores-and-their-children-in-our-day/comment-page-1/#comment-232799</link>
		<dc:creator>Spring Break Blogging Roundup &#171; The Long Eighteenth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Mar 2008 04:33:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/11/on-the-diminished-disgrace-of-whores-and-their-children-in-our-day/#comment-232799</guid>
		<description>[...] Contemporary relevance of 18th century writers department.  John Holbo at Crooked Timber analyzes an 18th century right wing blogger precursor of Edmund Burke, Justus Moser, and his [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] Contemporary relevance of 18th century writers department.&#160; John Holbo at Crooked Timber analyzes an 18th century right wing blogger precursor of Edmund Burke, Justus Moser, and his [...]</p>
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		<title>By: sonofcivilservants</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/11/on-the-diminished-disgrace-of-whores-and-their-children-in-our-day/comment-page-1/#comment-232708</link>
		<dc:creator>sonofcivilservants</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Mar 2008 14:54:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/11/on-the-diminished-disgrace-of-whores-and-their-children-in-our-day/#comment-232708</guid>
		<description>John, maybe you put it up as a public translation project. I speak German, I would translate one page. The texts itself are in the public domain. So should not be a problem. See project Gutenberg or just use some scan from Google Books. 

One commenter says that in Germany today civil service not to be based on merit is still a powerful idea. I do not think this is true at all. I am German and both of my parents are civil servants in Germany. The reasons why German civil service works well is that civil servants are extremely well paid and top talent is drawn into it. Many civil servants are barred by law from strikes, including all teachers, policemen and anyone in a bit higher position in administration. German civil service is very merit-based. Indeed even top politicians usually come from quite ordinary families: Schroeder&#039;s mom was a single mom cleaning lady, Angela Merkel&#039;s father was a pastor in east Germany and she is a physics PhD (unlike an Ivy undergrad degree, you cannot buy that one). Hiring into civil service is mostly based on centralized examinations and specialized exams. Just as an anecdote: A friend of mine, from an upper middle class family living in a cozy suburb full of professors, lawyers and doctors, after his Abitur with ok grades wanted to become a policeman (his grades roughly put him in the top 20% of the entire age cohort). He got rejected on basis of a minor knee condition he had (though he was still an athlete). That&#039;s how selective they can be! The NYPD or  any other US police agency, apart from the FBI maybe, can only dream of such applicants, let alone  turn them away. Being a civil servant, say a high school teacher (Gymnasium) in Germany enjoys similar status to being an engineer, a lawyer or doctor. My father still recommends I rather become a German civil servant rather than, say a Wall Street banker or consultant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>John, maybe you put it up as a public translation project. I speak German, I would translate one page. The texts itself are in the public domain. So should not be a problem. See project Gutenberg or just use some scan from Google Books.</p>

	<p>One commenter says that in Germany today civil service not to be based on merit is still a powerful idea. I do not think this is true at all. I am German and both of my parents are civil servants in Germany. The reasons why German civil service works well is that civil servants are extremely well paid and top talent is drawn into it. Many civil servants are barred by law from strikes, including all teachers, policemen and anyone in a bit higher position in administration. German civil service is very merit-based. Indeed even top politicians usually come from quite ordinary families: Schroeder&#8217;s mom was a single mom cleaning lady, Angela Merkel&#8217;s father was a pastor in east Germany and she is a physics PhD (unlike an Ivy undergrad degree, you cannot buy that one). Hiring into civil service is mostly based on centralized examinations and specialized exams. Just as an anecdote: A friend of mine, from an upper middle class family living in a cozy suburb full of professors, lawyers and doctors, after his Abitur with ok grades wanted to become a policeman (his grades roughly put him in the top 20% of the entire age cohort). He got rejected on basis of a minor knee condition he had (though he was still an athlete). That&#8217;s how selective they can be! The <span class="caps">NYPD</span> or  any other US police agency, apart from the <span class="caps">FBI</span> maybe, can only dream of such applicants, let alone  turn them away. Being a civil servant, say a high school teacher (Gymnasium) in Germany enjoys similar status to being an engineer, a lawyer or doctor. My father still recommends I rather become a German civil servant rather than, say a Wall Street banker or consultant.</p>
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		<title>By: Random African</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/11/on-the-diminished-disgrace-of-whores-and-their-children-in-our-day/comment-page-1/#comment-232244</link>
		<dc:creator>Random African</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Mar 2008 05:48:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/11/on-the-diminished-disgrace-of-whores-and-their-children-in-our-day/#comment-232244</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt; When men rule and where men serve, &lt;b&gt;birth&lt;/b&gt; and age, or seniority of service, are still the safest and least offensive rules for promotion. &lt;/i&gt;

that&#039;s the key word, people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i> When men rule and where men serve, <b>birth</b> and age, or seniority of service, are still the safest and least offensive rules for promotion. </i></p>

	<p>that&#8217;s the key word, people.</p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/11/on-the-diminished-disgrace-of-whores-and-their-children-in-our-day/comment-page-1/#comment-232133</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 16:17:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/11/on-the-diminished-disgrace-of-whores-and-their-children-in-our-day/#comment-232133</guid>
		<description>Kid, the world is bigger than you thought.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Kid, the world is bigger than you thought.</p>
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		<title>By: Noli Irritare Leones &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Prostitution</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/11/on-the-diminished-disgrace-of-whores-and-their-children-in-our-day/comment-page-1/#comment-232126</link>
		<dc:creator>Noli Irritare Leones &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Prostitution</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 15:27:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/11/on-the-diminished-disgrace-of-whores-and-their-children-in-our-day/#comment-232126</guid>
		<description>[...] Crooked Timber, with an eye to history, reviewed the centuries old pamphlet On the Diminished Disgrace of Whores and Their Children in Our Day. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] Crooked Timber, with an eye to history, reviewed the centuries old pamphlet On the Diminished Disgrace of Whores and Their Children in Our Day. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Modesto Kid</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/11/on-the-diminished-disgrace-of-whores-and-their-children-in-our-day/comment-page-1/#comment-232120</link>
		<dc:creator>The Modesto Kid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 14:38:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/11/on-the-diminished-disgrace-of-whores-and-their-children-in-our-day/#comment-232120</guid>
		<description>Count me as surprised that Dred Scott&#039;s owner was a gay film director.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Count me as surprised that Dred Scott&#8217;s owner was a gay film director.</p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/11/on-the-diminished-disgrace-of-whores-and-their-children-in-our-day/comment-page-1/#comment-232103</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 12:44:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/11/on-the-diminished-disgrace-of-whores-and-their-children-in-our-day/#comment-232103</guid>
		<description>The husband of &quot;Gentlemen Prefer Blondes&quot; author Anita Loos was the gay film director John Emerson. So was Dred Scott&#039;s owner. No apparent relation in either case. I have done considerable research in the John Emersons of the world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The husband of &#8220;Gentlemen Prefer Blondes&#8221; author Anita Loos was the gay film director John Emerson. So was Dred Scott&#8217;s owner. No apparent relation in either case. I have done considerable research in the John Emersons of the world.</p>
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		<title>By: John Holbo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/11/on-the-diminished-disgrace-of-whores-and-their-children-in-our-day/comment-page-1/#comment-232068</link>
		<dc:creator>John Holbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 07:24:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/11/on-the-diminished-disgrace-of-whores-and-their-children-in-our-day/#comment-232068</guid>
		<description>&quot;The idea of not basing all status on (sometimes rather arbitrarily defined) ‘merit’ and constant competition does seem to be conducive to the well-functioning of certain institutions.&quot;

I actually thought about saying something of the sort myself. I didn&#039;t, in part because it was funnier just to make fun. I agree that it is an interesting question: the limits of the efficiency of meritocracy. But it is also true that Möser is not really asking the interesting question. He is trying to defend an extreme position by posturing as though the only alternative is an opposite sort of extreme (which, as you point out, would have its own problems.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;The idea of not basing all status on (sometimes rather arbitrarily defined) &#8216;merit&#8217; and constant competition does seem to be conducive to the well-functioning of certain institutions.&#8221;</p>

	<p>I actually thought about saying something of the sort myself. I didn&#8217;t, in part because it was funnier just to make fun. I agree that it is an interesting question: the limits of the efficiency of meritocracy. But it is also true that M&#246;ser is not really asking the interesting question. He is trying to defend an extreme position by posturing as though the only alternative is an opposite sort of extreme (which, as you point out, would have its own problems.)</p>
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		<title>By: gr</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/11/on-the-diminished-disgrace-of-whores-and-their-children-in-our-day/comment-page-1/#comment-232064</link>
		<dc:creator>gr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 06:33:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/11/on-the-diminished-disgrace-of-whores-and-their-children-in-our-day/#comment-232064</guid>
		<description>Hmmm... the attack on the principle of merit doesn&#039;t strike me as altogether ridiculous. The view is still rather influential in Germany, especially in the public sector, and not necessarily all for the worse, imho. The idea of not basing all status on (sometimes rather arbitrarily defined) &#039;merit&#039; and constant competition does seem to be conducive to the well-functioning of certain institutions. German public services are clearly superior to those in Anglo-Saxon countries, and more so where they have been more resistant to being cannibalized by neo-liberal politicians.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Hmmm&#8230; the attack on the principle of merit doesn&#8217;t strike me as altogether ridiculous. The view is still rather influential in Germany, especially in the public sector, and not necessarily all for the worse, imho. The idea of not basing all status on (sometimes rather arbitrarily defined) &#8216;merit&#8217; and constant competition does seem to be conducive to the well-functioning of certain institutions. German public services are clearly superior to those in Anglo-Saxon countries, and more so where they have been more resistant to being cannibalized by neo-liberal politicians.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan S.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/11/on-the-diminished-disgrace-of-whores-and-their-children-in-our-day/comment-page-1/#comment-232052</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 03:55:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/11/on-the-diminished-disgrace-of-whores-and-their-children-in-our-day/#comment-232052</guid>
		<description>&quot;&lt;i&gt;So anyway, that’s where I got my elite status.&lt;/i&gt;&quot;

You know, every now and then I&#039;ve idly wondered if you were related to &lt;i&gt;those&lt;/i&gt; Emersons . . .

And are you aware of &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_Fiction_Theatre&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this&lt;/a&gt;? (see episode 7 of series 1 . . .)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;<i>So anyway, that&#8217;s where I got my elite status.</i>&#8221;</p>

	<p>You know, every now and then I&#8217;ve idly wondered if you were related to <i>those</i> Emersons . . .</p>

	<p>And are you aware of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_Fiction_Theatre" rel="nofollow">this</a>? (see episode 7 of series 1 . . .)</p>
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		<title>By: Will Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/11/on-the-diminished-disgrace-of-whores-and-their-children-in-our-day/comment-page-1/#comment-232051</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 03:42:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/11/on-the-diminished-disgrace-of-whores-and-their-children-in-our-day/#comment-232051</guid>
		<description>upon = open</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>upon = open</p>
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		<title>By: Will Wilkinson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/11/on-the-diminished-disgrace-of-whores-and-their-children-in-our-day/comment-page-1/#comment-232050</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Wilkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 03:41:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/11/on-the-diminished-disgrace-of-whores-and-their-children-in-our-day/#comment-232050</guid>
		<description>John, Well thanks! I am!

I do love the very clear expression of the thought that assigning positions according to merit will lead to unending humiliations. This was a pretty common view, wasn&#039;t it? That rigid hierarchy, having nothing to do with desert, was a recipe for both social and personal peace? If one knew one&#039;s place, and could aspire to nothing else, one could just chill and learn to love the virtues, such as they are, of one&#039;s station and its duties. God knows what he&#039;s doing. Of course, leave some positions upon to extraordinary talent, but be sure not to get people&#039;s hopes up. That would be too cruel. 

Not as interesting as drowning infanticidal whores in sacks, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>John, Well thanks! I am!</p>

	<p>I do love the very clear expression of the thought that assigning positions according to merit will lead to unending humiliations. This was a pretty common view, wasn&#8217;t it? That rigid hierarchy, having nothing to do with desert, was a recipe for both social and personal peace? If one knew one&#8217;s place, and could aspire to nothing else, one could just chill and learn to love the virtues, such as they are, of one&#8217;s station and its duties. God knows what he&#8217;s doing. Of course, leave some positions upon to extraordinary talent, but be sure not to get people&#8217;s hopes up. That would be too cruel.</p>

	<p>Not as interesting as drowning infanticidal whores in sacks, though.</p>
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		<title>By: John Holbo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/11/on-the-diminished-disgrace-of-whores-and-their-children-in-our-day/comment-page-1/#comment-232046</link>
		<dc:creator>John Holbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 02:55:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/11/on-the-diminished-disgrace-of-whores-and-their-children-in-our-day/#comment-232046</guid>
		<description>Also, thanks for the recommended readings, tom and sn. Also, John Emerson: your family rules.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Also, thanks for the recommended readings, tom and sn. Also, John Emerson: your family rules.</p>
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		<title>By: John Holbo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/11/on-the-diminished-disgrace-of-whores-and-their-children-in-our-day/comment-page-1/#comment-232035</link>
		<dc:creator>John Holbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 01:34:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/11/on-the-diminished-disgrace-of-whores-and-their-children-in-our-day/#comment-232035</guid>
		<description>Hi Will, I just thought you&#039;d be interested in the extreme claims about happiness and status.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Hi Will, I just thought you&#8217;d be interested in the extreme claims about happiness and status.</p>
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