<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Watchlists, human rights, and judicial politics</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/19/watchlists-human-rights-and-legal-politics/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/19/watchlists-human-rights-and-legal-politics/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 27 May 2012 05:09:40 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Nell</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/19/watchlists-human-rights-and-legal-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-233402</link>
		<dc:creator>Nell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 00:28:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/19/watchlists-human-rights-and-legal-politics/#comment-233402</guid>
		<description>Thanks for an informative post. This is a heads-up on potentially precedent-setting developments that are unlikely to be covered even in American publications and blogs that focus on civil liberties.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thanks for an informative post. This is a heads-up on potentially precedent-setting developments that are unlikely to be covered even in American publications and blogs that focus on civil liberties.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Nell</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/19/watchlists-human-rights-and-legal-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-233401</link>
		<dc:creator>Nell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 00:25:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/19/watchlists-human-rights-and-legal-politics/#comment-233401</guid>
		<description>I might be a little jaundiced, having just read an account of famous self-described liberal Eric Alterman telling a friend of mine in public that his concern about impunity for this administration&#039;s domestic spying, torture, political abuse of the justice system, and lies leading to a war of aggression is &quot;moral vanity&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I might be a little jaundiced, having just read an account of famous self-described liberal Eric Alterman telling a friend of mine in public that his concern about impunity for this administration&#8217;s domestic spying, torture, political abuse of the justice system, and lies leading to a war of aggression is &#8220;moral vanity&#8221;.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Nell</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/19/watchlists-human-rights-and-legal-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-233400</link>
		<dc:creator>Nell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 00:23:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/19/watchlists-human-rights-and-legal-politics/#comment-233400</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;what “freedom” actually means to Americans&lt;/i&gt;

Pretty much coming down to the freedom to choose any of thirty different kinds of snack crackers in the supermarket.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>what &#8220;freedom&#8221; actually means to Americans</i></p>

	<p>Pretty much coming down to the freedom to choose any of thirty different kinds of snack crackers in the supermarket.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Watch Lists &#171; Petunias</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/19/watchlists-human-rights-and-legal-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-233372</link>
		<dc:creator>Watch Lists &#171; Petunias</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Mar 2008 22:30:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/19/watchlists-human-rights-and-legal-politics/#comment-233372</guid>
		<description>[...] Henry from Crooked Timber by noting that a person or group doesn&#8217;t have to be charged with anything to be put on the list, so if someone thinks you might be connected to terrorists you might be put on the list. He notes that this is setting up a potential crisis for the EU, since this violates part of the German constitution which can&#8217;t be amended in any way (it was written by the US and allies). [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] Henry from Crooked Timber by noting that a person or group doesn&#8217;t have to be charged with anything to be put on the list, so if someone thinks you might be connected to terrorists you might be put on the list. He notes that this is setting up a potential crisis for the EU, since this violates part of the German constitution which can&#8217;t be amended in any way (it was written by the US and allies). [...]</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Picador</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/19/watchlists-human-rights-and-legal-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-233267</link>
		<dc:creator>Picador</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Mar 2008 15:20:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/19/watchlists-human-rights-and-legal-politics/#comment-233267</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I understand that there are now getting on for ONE MILLION people on the US no-fly list. It is nothing but a paranoid megalomaniac’s fantasy let loose on the public.&lt;/i&gt;

Three million in prison, another million under house arrest... eventually, those numbers start to add up and make people wonder what &quot;freedom&quot; actually means to Americans.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>I understand that there are now getting on for <span class="caps">ONE MILLION</span> people on the US no-fly list. It is nothing but a paranoid megalomaniac&#8217;s fantasy let loose on the public.</i></p>

	<p>Three million in prison, another million under house arrest&#8230; eventually, those numbers start to add up and make people wonder what &#8220;freedom&#8221; actually means to Americans.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Scott Hughes</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/19/watchlists-human-rights-and-legal-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-233188</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Hughes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 22:25:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/19/watchlists-human-rights-and-legal-politics/#comment-233188</guid>
		<description>With millions of people on these lists, I doubt they are being used for their claimed purpose. I bet a lot of the people are on there for political reasons not because there is reason to believe they support terrorism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>With millions of people on these lists, I doubt they are being used for their claimed purpose. I bet a lot of the people are on there for political reasons not because there is reason to believe they support terrorism.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Detlef</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/19/watchlists-human-rights-and-legal-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-233184</link>
		<dc:creator>Detlef</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:48:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/19/watchlists-human-rights-and-legal-politics/#comment-233184</guid>
		<description>Henry,

If I remember the German media reports right, the court (in the last case) said something like &quot;this law violates the privacy rights of millions of innocent citizens. It might also help catch a few criminals. The rights of the many outweight for now the possibility of catching a few criminals. So &quot;unconstitutional pending further review&quot;.

Expectation here in Germany is that they will declare at least parts of the law unconstitutional. They don´t use injunction lightly and it´s almost always a hint how the court will decide in the end.

Point is, if I recall the German media correctly, the German Federal Constitutional Court - in the last few months - got seriously alarmed by all this data-grabbing, search anything even without evidence, share date with everyone government approach.

I maybe should also mention that the German Federal Constitutional Court is pretty highly regarded in Germany. Only a stupid politician would even think of attacking them.

So, in case of a real difference between a EU court and the German Constitutional Court, German public opinion would side with the German Constitutional Court. Even if German politicians sided with the EU court.

Best course for the ECJ would be to say that the watchlist in its current form is wrong. Violating basic rights like the rule of law.

You certainly can have a watchlist. But you have to provide evidence. If sensitive, you can provide them to a closed court hearing (Is that the right term? Not a public hearing?). But there should be a way to challenge your inclusion to a watchlist. And that challenge shouldn´t depend on diplomatic moves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Henry,</p>

	<p>If I remember the German media reports right, the court (in the last case) said something like &#8220;this law violates the privacy rights of millions of innocent citizens. It might also help catch a few criminals. The rights of the many outweight for now the possibility of catching a few criminals. So &#8220;unconstitutional pending further review&#8221;.</p>

	<p>Expectation here in Germany is that they will declare at least parts of the law unconstitutional. They don&#180;t use injunction lightly and it&#180;s almost always a hint how the court will decide in the end.</p>

	<p>Point is, if I recall the German media correctly, the German Federal Constitutional Court &#8211; in the last few months &#8211; got seriously alarmed by all this data-grabbing, search anything even without evidence, share date with everyone government approach.</p>

	<p>I maybe should also mention that the German Federal Constitutional Court is pretty highly regarded in Germany. Only a stupid politician would even think of attacking them.</p>

	<p>So, in case of a real difference between a EU court and the German Constitutional Court, German public opinion would side with the German Constitutional Court. Even if German politicians sided with the EU court.</p>

	<p>Best course for the <span class="caps">ECJ</span> would be to say that the watchlist in its current form is wrong. Violating basic rights like the rule of law.</p>

	<p>You certainly can have a watchlist. But you have to provide evidence. If sensitive, you can provide them to a closed court hearing (Is that the right term? Not a public hearing?). But there should be a way to challenge your inclusion to a watchlist. And that challenge shouldn&#180;t depend on diplomatic moves.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tom T.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/19/watchlists-human-rights-and-legal-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-233183</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom T.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:40:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/19/watchlists-human-rights-and-legal-politics/#comment-233183</guid>
		<description>What are the &quot;fundamental rights&quot; of an institution?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>What are the &#8220;fundamental rights&#8221; of an institution?</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Henry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/19/watchlists-human-rights-and-legal-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-233177</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 20:49:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/19/watchlists-human-rights-and-legal-politics/#comment-233177</guid>
		<description>Thanks Detlef - I hadn&#039;t spotted the decision going down on data retention (which is one of the topics that I try to keep an eye on for research reasons).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thanks Detlef &#8211; I hadn&#8217;t spotted the decision going down on data retention (which is one of the topics that I try to keep an eye on for research reasons).</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Detlef</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/19/watchlists-human-rights-and-legal-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-233174</link>
		<dc:creator>Detlef</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 20:35:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/19/watchlists-human-rights-and-legal-politics/#comment-233174</guid>
		<description>The German Constitutional Court - given the last few months - would probably be extremely unhappy if the ECJ would go against the Advocate-General’s findings.

They already trimmed down 2 German security laws proposed by the German Federal interior ministry and are currently considering a third.

&lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,538378,00.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Germany&#039;s New Right to Online Privacy&lt;/a&gt;.
&lt;i&gt;The German Constitutional Court ruled Wednesday that a surveillance law passed in 2007 in the state of North Rhine-Westphalia gave police and state officials too much power to spy on citizens using &quot;trojan horse&quot; software, which can be delivered by e-mail and used to scan the contents of a hard drive.

Not only did the law violate the right to privacy, the court said, but it also violated a basic right for a citizen using a computer with an Internet connection to &quot;a guarantee of confidentiality and integrity in information-technology systems.&quot;

This was the full name of the latest civil right, which court president Hans-Jürgen Papier admitted was unprecedented in German law. He also named a few exceptions: In cases of a concrete threat to &quot;life and limb or personal liberty,&quot; or the existence of state institutions -- a loophole for terrorism investigations -- authorities can apply for a warrant to snoop a hard drive.&lt;/i&gt;

&lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,541025,00.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Hallmarks of a Totalitarian State&lt;/a&gt;.
&lt;i&gt;Germany&#039;s Federal Constitutional Court declared Tuesday that laws allowing police to indiscriminately scan license plates using electronic surveillance devices and match them against databases kept by law enforcement and state officials were unconstitutional -- at least if strict provisions weren&#039;t placed on the practice.&lt;/i&gt;

&lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,542398,00.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Constitutional Court Unplugs Data Law&lt;/a&gt;
&lt;i&gt;The law gave the federal government broad access to stored telephone and Internet data -- including e-mail addresses, length of call and numbers dialled -- for a six-month period. In the case of cell phone calls, service providers could potentially save data on the location calls were made from.

The law went into effect in January. But on Wednesday the German Constitutional Court in Karlsruhe issued an injunction against it, declaring parts of the law unconstitutional pending further review.&lt;/i&gt;

All three cases have in common that they went against &quot;unlimited&quot; government power. &quot;Unlimited&quot; as far as a democracy allows.
Simply put you need evidence and (checks and balances) a judge/court agreeing. I suspect they would at least like a possibility to challenge being on that watchlist in a court.
From your Papier quote:
&quot;What is interesting is that the person who comes to be on such a list is neither told in advance, nor told the reasons why they will be on the list. The underlying evidence isn’t provided, and there is no effective legal protection.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The German Constitutional Court &#8211; given the last few months &#8211; would probably be extremely unhappy if the <span class="caps">ECJ</span> would go against the Advocate-General&#8217;s findings.</p>

	<p>They already trimmed down 2 German security laws proposed by the German Federal interior ministry and are currently considering a third.</p>

	<p><a HREF="http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,538378,00.html" rel="nofollow">Germany&#8217;s New Right to Online Privacy</a>.<br />
<i>The German Constitutional Court ruled Wednesday that a surveillance law passed in 2007 in the state of North Rhine-Westphalia gave police and state officials too much power to spy on citizens using &#8220;trojan horse&#8221; software, which can be delivered by e-mail and used to scan the contents of a hard drive.</i></p>

	<p>Not only did the law violate the right to privacy, the court said, but it also violated a basic right for a citizen using a computer with an Internet connection to &#8220;a guarantee of confidentiality and integrity in information-technology systems.&#8221;</p>

	<p>This was the full name of the latest civil right, which court president Hans-J&#252;rgen Papier admitted was unprecedented in German law. He also named a few exceptions: In cases of a concrete threat to &#8220;life and limb or personal liberty,&#8221; or the existence of state institutions&#8212;a loophole for terrorism investigations&#8212;authorities can apply for a warrant to snoop a hard drive.</p>

	<p><a HREF="http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,541025,00.html" rel="nofollow">The Hallmarks of a Totalitarian State</a>.<br />
<i>Germany&#8217;s Federal Constitutional Court declared Tuesday that laws allowing police to indiscriminately scan license plates using electronic surveillance devices and match them against databases kept by law enforcement and state officials were unconstitutional&#8212;at least if strict provisions weren&#8217;t placed on the practice.</i></p>

	<p><a HREF="http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,542398,00.html" rel="nofollow">Constitutional Court Unplugs Data Law</a><br />
<i>The law gave the federal government broad access to stored telephone and Internet data&#8212;including e-mail addresses, length of call and numbers dialled&#8212;for a six-month period. In the case of cell phone calls, service providers could potentially save data on the location calls were made from.</i></p>

	<p>The law went into effect in January. But on Wednesday the German Constitutional Court in Karlsruhe issued an injunction against it, declaring parts of the law unconstitutional pending further review.</p>

	<p>All three cases have in common that they went against &#8220;unlimited&#8221; government power. &#8220;Unlimited&#8221; as far as a democracy allows.<br />
Simply put you need evidence and (checks and balances) a judge/court agreeing. I suspect they would at least like a possibility to challenge being on that watchlist in a court.<br />
From your Papier quote:<br />
&#8220;What is interesting is that the person who comes to be on such a list is neither told in advance, nor told the reasons why they will be on the list. The underlying evidence isn&#8217;t provided, and there is no effective legal protection.&#8221; </p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/19/watchlists-human-rights-and-legal-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-233168</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 20:02:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/19/watchlists-human-rights-and-legal-politics/#comment-233168</guid>
		<description>I understand that there are now getting on for ONE MILLION people on the US no-fly list. It is nothing but a paranoid megalomaniac&#039;s fantasy let loose on the public.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I understand that there are now getting on for <span class="caps">ONE MILLION</span> people on the US no-fly list. It is nothing but a paranoid megalomaniac&#8217;s fantasy let loose on the public.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: c.l. ball</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/19/watchlists-human-rights-and-legal-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-233166</link>
		<dc:creator>c.l. ball</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 19:54:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/19/watchlists-human-rights-and-legal-politics/#comment-233166</guid>
		<description>The U.S. border watch-lists and airport &quot;no-fly&quot; lists strike me as stupid. You are too dangerous to enter the country or to fly but you don&#039;t get arrested? The idea that you can walk up to a ticket counter, be told you can&#039;t fly because you are on a watch-list, and then walk away is deeply stupid (&quot;I&#039;m sorry, we fear you might hijack the plane, but you can board that bus or train over there if you want.&quot;)  The absence of arrests tells me there is no probable cause that the person has committed a crime, and so could not be arrested. 

The OFAC list that the WaPo refers to, unlike the others, is public: www.treas.gov/offices/enforcement/ofac/sdn/t11sdn.pdf

If you are &quot;Charles R. Bright&quot; you need to explain that you are not the former Liberian finance minister. If your birthday happens to be 29 Aug. 1948 as well, you&#039;re screwed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The U.S. border watch-lists and airport &#8220;no-fly&#8221; lists strike me as stupid. You are too dangerous to enter the country or to fly but you don&#8217;t get arrested? The idea that you can walk up to a ticket counter, be told you can&#8217;t fly because you are on a watch-list, and then walk away is deeply stupid (&#8220;I&#8217;m sorry, we fear you might hijack the plane, but you can board that bus or train over there if you want.&#8221;)  The absence of arrests tells me there is no probable cause that the person has committed a crime, and so could not be arrested.</p>

	<p>The <span class="caps">OFAC</span> list that the WaPo refers to, unlike the others, is public: <a href="http://www.treas.gov/offices/enforcement/ofac/sdn/t11sdn.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.treas.gov/offices/enforcement/ofac/sdn/t11sdn.pdf</a></p>

	<p>If you are &#8220;Charles R. Bright&#8221; you need to explain that you are not the former Liberian finance minister. If your birthday happens to be 29 Aug. 1948 as well, you&#8217;re screwed.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: qb</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/19/watchlists-human-rights-and-legal-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-233164</link>
		<dc:creator>qb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 19:42:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/19/watchlists-human-rights-and-legal-politics/#comment-233164</guid>
		<description>Well, making good arguments isn&#039;t really a valid source of political authority either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well, making good arguments isn&#8217;t really a valid source of political authority either.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: soru</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/19/watchlists-human-rights-and-legal-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-233160</link>
		<dc:creator>soru</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 19:17:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/03/19/watchlists-human-rights-and-legal-politics/#comment-233160</guid>
		<description>Sorry, writing wordy sentences isn&#039;t a valid source of political authority.

Especially if they mostly just use that rhetorical trick where you first mention an objection, and then proceed as if it has been dealt with by restating the original point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Sorry, writing wordy sentences isn&#8217;t a valid source of political authority.</p>

	<p>Especially if they mostly just use that rhetorical trick where you first mention an objection, and then proceed as if it has been dealt with by restating the original point.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

