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	<title>Comments on: Bertie finally bows out</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/02/bertie-finally-bows-out/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: shteve</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/02/bertie-finally-bows-out/comment-page-1/#comment-235081</link>
		<dc:creator>shteve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Apr 2008 21:31:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6785#comment-235081</guid>
		<description>Yes, Ballymagash bristles with nuclear missiles. And they have a fleet of invisible aircraft carriers stationed at Lochwhimsy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Yes, Ballymagash bristles with nuclear missiles. And they have a fleet of invisible aircraft carriers stationed at Lochwhimsy.</p>
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		<title>By: Paddy Matthews</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/02/bertie-finally-bows-out/comment-page-1/#comment-234883</link>
		<dc:creator>Paddy Matthews</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 12:10:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6785#comment-234883</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;(But then at this stage, is there any ideological difference between the two parties?)&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Same as it ever was.&lt;/i&gt;

Well, there would have been differences over Northern Ireland pre-GFA but that&#039;s no longer a point of disagreement between most of FF and most of FG. Similarly with the &quot;bedroom issues&quot; (contraception/divorce/abortion).

&lt;i&gt;Ahern still beats the hell out of anyone in the Bush administration, so there’s that…&lt;/i&gt;

Faint praise. Ballymagash Urban District Council would beat the hell out of anyone in the Bush administration.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i><blockquote>(But then at this stage, is there any ideological difference between the two parties?)</blockquote></i></p>

	<p>Same as it ever was.</p>

	<p>Well, there would have been differences over Northern Ireland pre-GFA but that&#8217;s no longer a point of disagreement between most of FF and most of FG. Similarly with the &#8220;bedroom issues&#8221; (contraception/divorce/abortion).</p>

	<p><i>Ahern still beats the hell out of anyone in the Bush administration, so there&#8217;s that&#8230;</i></p>

	<p>Faint praise. Ballymagash Urban District Council would beat the hell out of anyone in the Bush administration.</p>
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		<title>By: Thers</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/02/bertie-finally-bows-out/comment-page-1/#comment-234871</link>
		<dc:creator>Thers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 05:37:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6785#comment-234871</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;(But then at this stage, is there any ideological difference between the two parties?)&lt;/i&gt;

Same as it ever was. 

Ahern still beats the hell out of anyone in the Bush administration, so there&#039;s that...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>(But then at this stage, is there any ideological difference between the two parties?)</i></p>

	<p>Same as it ever was.</p>

	<p>Ahern still beats the hell out of anyone in the Bush administration, so there&#8217;s that&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Paddy Matthews</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/02/bertie-finally-bows-out/comment-page-1/#comment-234864</link>
		<dc:creator>Paddy Matthews</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 00:21:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6785#comment-234864</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Ahern’s “accountancy” qualifications have been called in question before. His CV claims UCD and the London School of Economics as his colleges,&lt;/i&gt;

According to his older brother interviewed on RTÉ Radio yesterday, he&#039;s a qualified Cost and Management Accountant. He studied part-time while working, as far as I know at Rathmines College of Commerce (now part of the Dublin Institute of Technology).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Ahern&#8217;s &#8220;accountancy&#8221; qualifications have been called in question before. His CV claims <span class="caps">UCD</span> and the London School of Economics as his colleges,</i></p>

	<p>According to his older brother interviewed on RT&#201; Radio yesterday, he&#8217;s a qualified Cost and Management Accountant. He studied part-time while working, as far as I know at Rathmines College of Commerce (now part of the Dublin Institute of Technology).</p>
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		<title>By: P O'Neill</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/02/bertie-finally-bows-out/comment-page-1/#comment-234841</link>
		<dc:creator>P O'Neill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 18:39:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6785#comment-234841</guid>
		<description>Toby, it&#039;s one possible theory but don&#039;t rule out cherchez les femmes.  Celia had expensive tastes.  And then there&#039;s the daughters.  Cecilia would have to spend quite a bit before the chicklit career took off -- I believe several years of creative writing courses and then putting the books together while cultivating the leading people in the field.  And keeping Westlife company is expensive (the other one) even with Nicky probably picking up the tab a lot of time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Toby, it&#8217;s one possible theory but don&#8217;t rule out cherchez les femmes.  Celia had expensive tastes.  And then there&#8217;s the daughters.  Cecilia would have to spend quite a bit before the chicklit career took off&#8212;I believe several years of creative writing courses and then putting the books together while cultivating the leading people in the field.  And keeping Westlife company is expensive (the other one) even with Nicky probably picking up the tab a lot of time.</p>
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		<title>By: toby</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/02/bertie-finally-bows-out/comment-page-1/#comment-234827</link>
		<dc:creator>toby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 16:35:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6785#comment-234827</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll not cry for Bertie Ahern; I think history will judge him positively for Northern Ireland. However, he was always a &quot;blue skies&quot; Taoiseach with a booming economy. He ducked all the tough decisions (health services, education, infrastructure) and leaves a mound of dung for his successor.

What I can&#039;t figure is: it seems that something like the present-day equivalent of 1M Eur passed through various bank accounts under his control (personal and party) over a four to five year period. What use was the money put to? There are no obvious trappings, as there was with Haughey.

I have a theory that Ahern desperately wanted to always show off a &quot;professional accountant&quot; (as he once described himself) and financial wizard exterior. He could not bear to be shown up as a financial incompetent who could not handle a simple bank account without help; hence the spun-out stories, the lies, excuses and prevarication. 

As someone who can&#039;t keep his current account out of the red, I sympathize. If the man just put up his hand and said &quot;I&#039;m just crap at managing my money; my accounts for the period in questions are in a state of utter chaos and I don&#039;t even know where to start.&quot;, I would have taken him to my bosom.

Ahern&#039;s &quot;accountancy&quot; qualifications have been called in question before. His CV claims UCD and the London School of Economics as his colleges, but he have never been found in a list of graduates. Some years ago a claimed &quot;Oxford qualification&quot; turned out to be a short course, and was taken off the Fianna Fail website. His last job before politics looks suspiciously like that of a wages clerk in Dublin&#039;s Mater Hospital.

Another fantasist, like Haughey, but living a different fantasy. Bertie Ahern could not claim to be one of the aristocracy, so his fantasy was to be a technocrat who rose by merit in the world of high finance, while still being a main of the people. Like Haughey, his fantasy was his ultimate downfall.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;ll not cry for Bertie Ahern; I think history will judge him positively for Northern Ireland. However, he was always a &#8220;blue skies&#8221; Taoiseach with a booming economy. He ducked all the tough decisions (health services, education, infrastructure) and leaves a mound of dung for his successor.</p>

	<p>What I can&#8217;t figure is: it seems that something like the present-day equivalent of 1M Eur passed through various bank accounts under his control (personal and party) over a four to five year period. What use was the money put to? There are no obvious trappings, as there was with Haughey.</p>

	<p>I have a theory that Ahern desperately wanted to always show off a &#8220;professional accountant&#8221; (as he once described himself) and financial wizard exterior. He could not bear to be shown up as a financial incompetent who could not handle a simple bank account without help; hence the spun-out stories, the lies, excuses and prevarication.</p>

	<p>As someone who can&#8217;t keep his current account out of the red, I sympathize. If the man just put up his hand and said &#8220;I&#8217;m just crap at managing my money; my accounts for the period in questions are in a state of utter chaos and I don&#8217;t even know where to start.&#8221;, I would have taken him to my bosom.</p>

	<p>Ahern&#8217;s &#8220;accountancy&#8221; qualifications have been called in question before. His CV claims <span class="caps">UCD</span> and the London School of Economics as his colleges, but he have never been found in a list of graduates. Some years ago a claimed &#8220;Oxford qualification&#8221; turned out to be a short course, and was taken off the Fianna Fail website. His last job before politics looks suspiciously like that of a wages clerk in Dublin&#8217;s Mater Hospital.</p>

	<p>Another fantasist, like Haughey, but living a different fantasy. Bertie Ahern could not claim to be one of the aristocracy, so his fantasy was to be a technocrat who rose by merit in the world of high finance, while still being a main of the people. Like Haughey, his fantasy was his ultimate downfall.</p>
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		<title>By: P O'Neill</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/02/bertie-finally-bows-out/comment-page-1/#comment-234807</link>
		<dc:creator>P O'Neill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 12:30:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6785#comment-234807</guid>
		<description>bernarda, quite good column in the FT from &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ft.com/cms/s/d1bede98-00f0-11dd-a0c5-000077b07658.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Quentin Peel&lt;/a&gt; on exactly that point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>bernarda, quite good column in the FT from <a href="http://www.ft.com/cms/s/d1bede98-00f0-11dd-a0c5-000077b07658.html" rel="nofollow">Quentin Peel</a> on exactly that point.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Donoghue</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/02/bertie-finally-bows-out/comment-page-1/#comment-234797</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Donoghue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 11:00:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6785#comment-234797</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Sounds like he ought to be running for Mayor of New York City.&lt;/em&gt;

Yes, it&#039;s time Tammany Hall was restored to its former grandeur.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><em>Sounds like he ought to be running for Mayor of New York City.</em></p>

	<p>Yes, it&#8217;s time Tammany Hall was restored to its former grandeur.</p>
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		<title>By: bernarda</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/02/bertie-finally-bows-out/comment-page-1/#comment-234788</link>
		<dc:creator>bernarda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 10:04:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6785#comment-234788</guid>
		<description>Though it is not directly related, what effect will this have on the vote on the Treaty of Lisbon(AKA European Constitution in sheeps&#039; clothing)? Isn&#039;t Ireland the only country where EU people will get to vote on it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Though it is not directly related, what effect will this have on the vote on the Treaty of Lisbon(AKA European Constitution in sheeps&#8217; clothing)? Isn&#8217;t Ireland the only country where EU people will get to vote on it?</p>
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		<title>By: jay bee</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/02/bertie-finally-bows-out/comment-page-1/#comment-234778</link>
		<dc:creator>jay bee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 08:03:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6785#comment-234778</guid>
		<description>Kieran, I think the line on Bertie:

He has done the State.  Some service.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Kieran, I think the line on Bertie:</p>

	<p>He has done the State.  Some service.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Johnny Pez</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/02/bertie-finally-bows-out/comment-page-1/#comment-234762</link>
		<dc:creator>Johnny Pez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 05:17:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6785#comment-234762</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Accepting tens of thousands of pounds from cronies, passing it on to your mistress to buy property, being pursued by the Revenue Commissioners for dishonest tax returns, and lying about it to the Dail&lt;/i&gt;

Sounds like he ought to be running for Mayor of New York City.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Accepting tens of thousands of pounds from cronies, passing it on to your mistress to buy property, being pursued by the Revenue Commissioners for dishonest tax returns, and lying about it to the Dail</i></p>

	<p>Sounds like he ought to be running for Mayor of New York City.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: mollymooly</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/02/bertie-finally-bows-out/comment-page-1/#comment-234744</link>
		<dc:creator>mollymooly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 23:57:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6785#comment-234744</guid>
		<description>Garrett FitzGerald more or less said he joined FG rather than Labour because it was bigger and he had family connections, and so he could have more influence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Garrett FitzGerald more or less said he joined FG rather than Labour because it was bigger and he had family connections, and so he could have more influence.</p>
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		<title>By: Paddy Matthews</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/02/bertie-finally-bows-out/comment-page-1/#comment-234722</link>
		<dc:creator>Paddy Matthews</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 21:48:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6785#comment-234722</guid>
		<description>P.

&lt;i&gt;They were the young people making the decision to join the party, go to cumann meetings, attend Ogra FF bashes, and generally be active members at a time when FF was at the heights or depths of the Haughey era, depending on your perspective.&lt;/i&gt;

One thing that depresses me about Irish politics - or more especially about the two bigger parties - is the degree to which their support is based on family tradition rather than any judgment about ideology or about the particular current leadership. (But then at this stage, &lt;b&gt;is&lt;/b&gt; there any ideological difference between the two parties?) 

It leads to a kind of football-fan, City vs. United, politics that leaves me cold. Party X in opposition derides every action of Party Y, but then do exactly the same once they get into government.

That applies to both parties.

It&#039;s quite possible that they joined the party because of family tradition or because they felt closer towards the party&#039;s perceived ideals, rather than because of any personal attachment towards Haughey. 

In some cases, it might even have been in spite of Haughey (I&#039;m thinking here of someone like Mary Hanafin), in the same way as someone like David Andrews remained in the party all through the Haughey era in spite of the mutual antipathy between himself and Haughey, because he felt a greater loyalty to the party. 

(Similarly, on the other side of the house, Garret FitzGerald stayed in the Cosgrave cabinet despite the actions of the Heavy Gang and the Donegan/Ó Dálaigh affair.)

To my mind, assuming that every single member of FF at every level was complicit in Haughey&#039;s crookery simply because they were a member of the party is bigotry, much like assuming that every member of FG in the 1930s was a supporter of fascism because of O&#039;Duffy&#039;s leadership.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>P.</p>

	<p><i>They were the young people making the decision to join the party, go to cumann meetings, attend Ogra FF bashes, and generally be active members at a time when FF was at the heights or depths of the Haughey era, depending on your perspective.</i></p>

	<p>One thing that depresses me about Irish politics &#8211; or more especially about the two bigger parties &#8211; is the degree to which their support is based on family tradition rather than any judgment about ideology or about the particular current leadership. (But then at this stage, <b>is</b> there any ideological difference between the two parties?)</p>

	<p>It leads to a kind of football-fan, City vs. United, politics that leaves me cold. Party X in opposition derides every action of Party Y, but then do exactly the same once they get into government.</p>

	<p>That applies to both parties.</p>

	<p>It&#8217;s quite possible that they joined the party because of family tradition or because they felt closer towards the party&#8217;s perceived ideals, rather than because of any personal attachment towards Haughey.</p>

	<p>In some cases, it might even have been in spite of Haughey (I&#8217;m thinking here of someone like Mary Hanafin), in the same way as someone like David Andrews remained in the party all through the Haughey era in spite of the mutual antipathy between himself and Haughey, because he felt a greater loyalty to the party.</p>

	<p>(Similarly, on the other side of the house, Garret FitzGerald stayed in the Cosgrave cabinet despite the actions of the Heavy Gang and the Donegan/&#211; D&#225;laigh affair.)</p>

	<p>To my mind, assuming that every single member of FF at every level was complicit in Haughey&#8217;s crookery simply because they were a member of the party is bigotry, much like assuming that every member of FG in the 1930s was a supporter of fascism because of O&#8217;Duffy&#8217;s leadership.</p>
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		<title>By: P O'Neill</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/02/bertie-finally-bows-out/comment-page-1/#comment-234716</link>
		<dc:creator>P O'Neill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 21:17:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6785#comment-234716</guid>
		<description>I agree Paddy but there&#039;s one among many things I find mindboggling about these FF cabinet members now.  They are not that old.  They were the young people making the decision to join the party, go to cumann meetings, attend Ogra FF bashes, and generally be active members at a time when FF was at the heights or depths of the Haughey era, depending on your perspective.  But I&#039;ve never heard of a hint of reflection from Cowen, Hanafin, Dempsey, Martin, the non-related Ahern etc about what they were thought they were joining under CJH, other than a path to power.

And believe it or not, I kind of like Cowen relative to the others.  It must date from the time when Edenderry seemed cool (where I grew up, because it had a cinema) so that aura extends to the rest of Offaly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I agree Paddy but there&#8217;s one among many things I find mindboggling about these FF cabinet members now.  They are not that old.  They were the young people making the decision to join the party, go to cumann meetings, attend Ogra FF bashes, and generally be active members at a time when FF was at the heights or depths of the Haughey era, depending on your perspective.  But I&#8217;ve never heard of a hint of reflection from Cowen, Hanafin, Dempsey, Martin, the non-related Ahern etc about what they were thought they were joining under <span class="caps">CJH</span>, other than a path to power.</p>

	<p>And believe it or not, I kind of like Cowen relative to the others.  It must date from the time when Edenderry seemed cool (where I grew up, because it had a cinema) so that aura extends to the rest of Offaly.</p>
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		<title>By: Paddy Matthews</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/02/bertie-finally-bows-out/comment-page-1/#comment-234700</link>
		<dc:creator>Paddy Matthews</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 19:23:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6785#comment-234700</guid>
		<description>p o&#039;neill:
&lt;i&gt;his successor—who like Bertie was rising up in the party during the Haughey area&lt;/i&gt;

&quot;Rising up&quot; in the sense of being a backbencher from 1984 (when he replaced his father in a by-election) until Haughey&#039;s departure, yes. But it wouldn&#039;t be all that much of a rise.

He wasn&#039;t appointed to ministerial office until the replacement of Haughey with Albert Reynolds, and he&#039;d been one of the second &quot;Gang of 22&quot; who had publicly voted to replace Haughey the previous year.

Fine Gael might be wiser to concentrate their criticism on his handling of the economy over the last four years and on his previous ministerial performances rather than coming up with tenuous links to Haughey which are unlikely to have much credibility with the public.

Speaking personally, the fact that Ahern&#039;s sycophants in the &lt;i&gt;Sunday Independent&lt;/i&gt; spent the last year attacking Cowen is a plus in my book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>p o&#8217;neill:<br />
<i>his successor&#8212;who like Bertie was rising up in the party during the Haughey area</i></p>

	<p>&#8220;Rising up&#8221; in the sense of being a backbencher from 1984 (when he replaced his father in a by-election) until Haughey&#8217;s departure, yes. But it wouldn&#8217;t be all that much of a rise.</p>

	<p>He wasn&#8217;t appointed to ministerial office until the replacement of Haughey with Albert Reynolds, and he&#8217;d been one of the second &#8220;Gang of 22&#8221; who had publicly voted to replace Haughey the previous year.</p>

	<p>Fine Gael might be wiser to concentrate their criticism on his handling of the economy over the last four years and on his previous ministerial performances rather than coming up with tenuous links to Haughey which are unlikely to have much credibility with the public.</p>

	<p>Speaking personally, the fact that Ahern&#8217;s sycophants in the <i>Sunday Independent</i> spent the last year attacking Cowen is a plus in my book.</p>
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