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	<title>Comments on: Psychology vs Organizations in Organ Procurement</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/09/psychology-vs-organizations-in-organ-procurement/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/09/psychology-vs-organizations-in-organ-procurement/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<item>
		<title>By: Sortition</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/09/psychology-vs-organizations-in-organ-procurement/comment-page-1/#comment-235555</link>
		<dc:creator>Sortition</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 05:38:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6808#comment-235555</guid>
		<description>It would be interesting to see what would be the opt-in and opt-out rates in a &quot;neutral&quot; setup where you &lt;em&gt;have&lt;/em&gt; to check one of two boxes. I guess the boxes would have to be randomly ordered to eliminate potential bias. Does no country have this arrangement?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It would be interesting to see what would be the opt-in and opt-out rates in a &#8220;neutral&#8221; setup where you <em>have</em> to check one of two boxes. I guess the boxes would have to be randomly ordered to eliminate potential bias. Does no country have this arrangement?</p>
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		<title>By: Kieran Healy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/09/psychology-vs-organizations-in-organ-procurement/comment-page-1/#comment-235553</link>
		<dc:creator>Kieran Healy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 04:23:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6808#comment-235553</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;The one thing which jumps out of the first set of data is that the Swedes are selfish bastards about their organs. They’ve got a 15% rate of actively declining consent, while most of the rest have less than 2%.&lt;/i&gt;

Here&#039;s what I think it happening. When you run an Opt-In or Opt-Out system, you will have a donor registry with the names of those people who have opted in or opted out as appropriate. A number of Presumed-Consent countries have _only_ an Opt-Out registry. I don&#039;t have data for Portugal, Hungary or Poland. But France and Austria are like this, having no opt-in registry, just an opt-out one. Belgium has two registries, but its presumed-consent system is unusually strong. But Sweden has both an Opt-In and an Opt-Out registry. This presumably makes the choice situation more complicated and default-action type arguments wouldn&#039;t be expected to apply so easily. So I think this may explain why Sweden has a lower rate of sign-up to be an organ donor than other presumed-consent countries -- there&#039;s more opportunity for choice at the point of decision, hence it&#039;s easier not to sign up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>The one thing which jumps out of the first set of data is that the Swedes are selfish bastards about their organs. They&#8217;ve got a 15% rate of actively declining consent, while most of the rest have less than 2%.</i></p>

	<p>Here&#8217;s what I think it happening. When you run an Opt-In or Opt-Out system, you will have a donor registry with the names of those people who have opted in or opted out as appropriate. A number of Presumed-Consent countries have <em>only</em> an Opt-Out registry. I don&#8217;t have data for Portugal, Hungary or Poland. But France and Austria are like this, having no opt-in registry, just an opt-out one. Belgium has two registries, but its presumed-consent system is unusually strong. But Sweden has both an Opt-In and an Opt-Out registry. This presumably makes the choice situation more complicated and default-action type arguments wouldn&#8217;t be expected to apply so easily. So I think this may explain why Sweden has a lower rate of sign-up to be an organ donor than other presumed-consent countries&#8212;there&#8217;s more opportunity for choice at the point of decision, hence it&#8217;s easier not to sign up.</p>
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		<title>By: KCinDC</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/09/psychology-vs-organizations-in-organ-procurement/comment-page-1/#comment-235552</link>
		<dc:creator>KCinDC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 04:08:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6808#comment-235552</guid>
		<description>I noticed that too, Anthony. Do the Swedes have something wrong with their question wording? Are there Swedish-only rumors about doctors killing patients to get their organs?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I noticed that too, Anthony. Do the Swedes have something wrong with their question wording? Are there Swedish-only rumors about doctors killing patients to get their organs?</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Baugh</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/09/psychology-vs-organizations-in-organ-procurement/comment-page-1/#comment-235551</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Baugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 04:02:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6808#comment-235551</guid>
		<description>A freakonomics claim proves to abuse selected data and ignore everything else in favor of a pat conclusion? I am shocked, shocked to find that there&#039;s freakaonomics here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>A freakonomics claim proves to abuse selected data and ignore everything else in favor of a pat conclusion? I am shocked, shocked to find that there&#8217;s freakaonomics here.</p>
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		<title>By: Anthony</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/09/psychology-vs-organizations-in-organ-procurement/comment-page-1/#comment-235539</link>
		<dc:creator>Anthony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 23:37:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6808#comment-235539</guid>
		<description>The one thing which jumps out of the first set of data is that the Swedes are selfish bastards about their organs. They&#039;ve got a 15% rate of actively declining consent, while most of the rest have less than 2%.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The one thing which jumps out of the first set of data is that the Swedes are selfish bastards about their organs. They&#8217;ve got a 15% rate of actively declining consent, while most of the rest have less than 2%.</p>
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		<title>By: CK</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/09/psychology-vs-organizations-in-organ-procurement/comment-page-1/#comment-235538</link>
		<dc:creator>CK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 22:46:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6808#comment-235538</guid>
		<description>In a recent &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-thalerandsunstein2apr02,0,3730262.story&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;LA Times op-ed&lt;/a&gt; describing their proposed &quot;libertarian paternalism&quot; movement, Sunstein and Thaler also draw on Johnson and Goldstein:

&lt;blockquote&gt;If we want to increase the supply of transplant organs in the United States, we could presume that people want to donate, rather than treating nondonation as the default. A study by social scientists Eric Johnson and Dan Goldstein showed that &quot;presumed consent&quot; could save thousands of lives annually.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Sounds like they&#039;re reading even more into the study than Ariely does.  Given your research, and your description of Johnson and Goldstein, it seems that Sunstein and Thaler&#039;s claim is pretty indefensible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>In a recent <a href="http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-thalerandsunstein2apr02,0,3730262.story" rel="nofollow"><span class="caps">LA </span>Times op-ed</a> describing their proposed &#8220;libertarian paternalism&#8221; movement, Sunstein and Thaler also draw on Johnson and Goldstein:</p>

	<p><blockquote>If we want to increase the supply of transplant organs in the United States, we could presume that people want to donate, rather than treating nondonation as the default. A study by social scientists Eric Johnson and Dan Goldstein showed that &#8220;presumed consent&#8221; could save thousands of lives annually.</blockquote></p>

	<p>Sounds like they&#8217;re reading even more into the study than Ariely does.  Given your research, and your description of Johnson and Goldstein, it seems that Sunstein and Thaler&#8217;s claim is pretty indefensible.</p>
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		<title>By: Kieran Healy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/09/psychology-vs-organizations-in-organ-procurement/comment-page-1/#comment-235534</link>
		<dc:creator>Kieran Healy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 22:13:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6808#comment-235534</guid>
		<description>I know, I know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I know, I know.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron Swartz</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/09/psychology-vs-organizations-in-organ-procurement/comment-page-1/#comment-235533</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron Swartz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 22:10:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6808#comment-235533</guid>
		<description>Kieran, this obsessive focus on &lt;em&gt;facts&lt;/em&gt; is exactly why you will never be a popular freakonomist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Kieran, this obsessive focus on <em>facts</em> is exactly why you will never be a popular freakonomist.</p>
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		<title>By: Kieran Healy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/09/psychology-vs-organizations-in-organ-procurement/comment-page-1/#comment-235532</link>
		<dc:creator>Kieran Healy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 22:09:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6808#comment-235532</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Oughtn’t the denominator to the procurement rate be the number of deaths, perhaps just those deaths where organs are recoverable?&lt;/i&gt;

Yes. In my book and some papers on this stuff I do an analysis for the U.S. case using the best available estimate of donor-evaluable deaths -- that subset of all deaths where the cause and circumstance of death are consistent with the possibility of organ procurement. But in practice this number is very difficult to calculate and get a consistent time series on, even just for the United States. (A report from a while ago on this topic by the GAO found that the accurate collection of this kind of data at a national level would be too expensive, even for the Federal Government.) 

As it turns out, at least in my experience the use of donor evaluable deaths vs all deaths vs the total population turns out not to make a very large difference to quantitative estimates of interest. (Which, I can tell you, was a little irritating to discover as a grad student, after I had gone to considerable trouble to calculate the in-principle better number. There is a lesson here.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Oughtn&#8217;t the denominator to the procurement rate be the number of deaths, perhaps just those deaths where organs are recoverable?</i></p>

	<p>Yes. In my book and some papers on this stuff I do an analysis for the U.S. case using the best available estimate of donor-evaluable deaths&#8212;that subset of all deaths where the cause and circumstance of death are consistent with the possibility of organ procurement. But in practice this number is very difficult to calculate and get a consistent time series on, even just for the United States. (A report from a while ago on this topic by the <span class="caps">GAO</span> found that the accurate collection of this kind of data at a national level would be too expensive, even for the Federal Government.)</p>

	<p>As it turns out, at least in my experience the use of donor evaluable deaths vs all deaths vs the total population turns out not to make a very large difference to quantitative estimates of interest. (Which, I can tell you, was a little irritating to discover as a grad student, after I had gone to considerable trouble to calculate the in-principle better number. There is a lesson here.)</p>
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		<title>By: mkl</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/09/psychology-vs-organizations-in-organ-procurement/comment-page-1/#comment-235531</link>
		<dc:creator>mkl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 22:05:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>er, actual donors per million population.  Got it.
 Never mind. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>er, actual donors per million population.  Got it.<br />
Never mind.</p>
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		<title>By: mkl</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/09/psychology-vs-organizations-in-organ-procurement/comment-page-1/#comment-235529</link>
		<dc:creator>mkl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 22:00:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6808#comment-235529</guid>
		<description>Oughtn&#039;t the denominator to the procurement rate be the number of deaths, perhaps just those deaths where organs are recoverable?  If the Spaniards are extracting the organs of 35% of the population, I&#039;m definitely changing my holiday plans... of course, that would explain why their housing market&#039;s in a bit of a mess.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Oughtn&#8217;t the denominator to the procurement rate be the number of deaths, perhaps just those deaths where organs are recoverable?  If the Spaniards are extracting the organs of 35% of the population, I&#8217;m definitely changing my holiday plans&#8230; of course, that would explain why their housing market&#8217;s in a bit of a mess.</p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/09/psychology-vs-organizations-in-organ-procurement/comment-page-1/#comment-235528</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 21:58:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6808#comment-235528</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;...France and the U.K. These are countries that we usually think of as rather similar in terms of culture...&lt;/i&gt;

I think most of your French readers have just walked away in disgust. (Not that I blame them.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>&#8230;France and the U.K. These are countries that we usually think of as rather similar in terms of culture&#8230;</i></p>

	<p>I think most of your French readers have just walked away in disgust. (Not that I blame them.)</p>
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		<title>By: Kieran Healy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/09/psychology-vs-organizations-in-organ-procurement/comment-page-1/#comment-235525</link>
		<dc:creator>Kieran Healy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 21:47:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6808#comment-235525</guid>
		<description>Per million population. Not ideal, but the best one can do cross-nationally. The number in the Defaults chart is probably not calculated in terms of the overall population but rather vis a vis the number of people given the opportunity to check the box (or not).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Per million population. Not ideal, but the best one can do cross-nationally. The number in the Defaults chart is probably not calculated in terms of the overall population but rather vis a vis the number of people given the opportunity to check the box (or not).</p>
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		<title>By: mkl</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/09/psychology-vs-organizations-in-organ-procurement/comment-page-1/#comment-235524</link>
		<dc:creator>mkl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 21:45:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6808#comment-235524</guid>
		<description>Denmark&#039;s acheiving a procurement rate more than 3x the consent rate makes one wonders what the point of consent is.  What is the denominator to the procurement rate?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Denmark&#8217;s acheiving a procurement rate more than 3x the consent rate makes one wonders what the point of consent is.  What is the denominator to the procurement rate?</p>
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