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	<title>Comments on: How Much Now?</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/20/how-much-now/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: H. E. Baber</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/20/how-much-now/comment-page-2/#comment-236862</link>
		<dc:creator>H. E. Baber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 01:31:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6841#comment-236862</guid>
		<description>Yeah, and back in those good old days dumb blue collar jerks were making more than teachers, with or without Ph.D.s because teaching was &lt;i&gt;womanswork&lt;/i&gt;: even if guys did it, while they would of course be paid more than women doing the same work, they wouldn&#039;t be paid as much as guys who did guy jobs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Yeah, and back in those good old days dumb blue collar jerks were making more than teachers, with or without Ph.D.s because teaching was <i>womanswork</i>: even if guys did it, while they would of course be paid more than women doing the same work, they wouldn&#8217;t be paid as much as guys who did guy jobs.</p>
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		<title>By: Luther Blissett</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/20/how-much-now/comment-page-2/#comment-236854</link>
		<dc:creator>Luther Blissett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 00:48:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6841#comment-236854</guid>
		<description>Salary for a first-year teacher with two Masters degrees and a Ph.D. (that is, me) in my New York State district is $41,000.  Given that I work from 7:30 until 5 or 6 in the evening, 190 days each year, I am earning around $25 per hour.  That&#039;s not taking into account any training or prep work during the summer.

White collar or blue, times are hard all over.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Salary for a first-year teacher with two Masters degrees and a Ph.D. (that is, me) in my New York State district is $41,000.  Given that I work from 7:30 until 5 or 6 in the evening, 190 days each year, I am earning around $25 per hour.  That&#8217;s not taking into account any training or prep work during the summer.</p>

	<p>White collar or blue, times are hard all over.</p>
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		<title>By: H. E. Baber</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/20/how-much-now/comment-page-2/#comment-236851</link>
		<dc:creator>H. E. Baber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 00:30:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6841#comment-236851</guid>
		<description>These $20/hour uneducated, unskilled workers were white guys who were paid more than they were worth (by any standard) because of the social consensus that white families should maintain a certain standard of living and that men should be paid a &quot;family wage&quot;--backed by unions. Irrational notions of what was &quot;appropriate&quot; and looked right beat the market--in the short run.

But not for long, because now wages for these white men are falling to a more rational level. And now these dumb white guys are all bent out of shape because they imagine that they merit what as in fact the white guy premium. Now these dumb jerks are bitching about affirmative action, about special race-based and sex-based advantages, when they, or at least their daddys have been eating off of a race-based, sex-based avantage all their lives.

I have not one whit of sympathy, or empathy, for them. If they want more money let them understand that it can only come as a benevolence--through government programs or charity--because they aren&#039;t worth it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>These $20/hour uneducated, unskilled workers were white guys who were paid more than they were worth (by any standard) because of the social consensus that white families should maintain a certain standard of living and that men should be paid a &#8220;family wage&#8221;&#8212;backed by unions. Irrational notions of what was &#8220;appropriate&#8221; and looked right beat the market&#8212;in the short run.</p>

	<p>But not for long, because now wages for these white men are falling to a more rational level. And now these dumb white guys are all bent out of shape because they imagine that they merit what as in fact the white guy premium. Now these dumb jerks are bitching about affirmative action, about special race-based and sex-based advantages, when they, or at least their daddys have been eating off of a race-based, sex-based avantage all their lives.</p>

	<p>I have not one whit of sympathy, or empathy, for them. If they want more money let them understand that it can only come as a benevolence&#8212;through government programs or charity&#8212;because they aren&#8217;t worth it.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt McIrvin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/20/how-much-now/comment-page-2/#comment-236841</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt McIrvin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 23:08:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6841#comment-236841</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;$20/per hour as the bottom rung of the middle class? Are you kidding? The national average salary is surely below that. So there’s NO middle class—just a middle club?&lt;/i&gt;

Yeah, how about that?

The median household income is actually a little above that.  But just a little.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>$20/per hour as the bottom rung of the middle class? Are you kidding? The national average salary is surely below that. So there&#8217;s NO middle class&#8212;just a middle club?</i></p>

	<p>Yeah, how about that?</p>

	<p>The median household income is actually a little above that.  But just a little.</p>
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		<title>By: Aloy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/20/how-much-now/comment-page-2/#comment-236806</link>
		<dc:creator>Aloy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 17:53:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6841#comment-236806</guid>
		<description>Belle @ 49: Yeah, you&#039;re right that the article is confusing. It has: 

&quot;The $20 hourly wage, introduced on a huge scale in the middle of the last century, allowed masses of Americans with no more than a high school education to rise to the middle class. It was a marker, of sorts.&quot;

If the wage is in 2007 dollars, how could it have been a &#039;marker&#039; back in the middle of the century? I assume it&#039;s a marker because it&#039;s a nice, round number--mmmm, $20/hr--but if it was actually $6.50 or whatever, well, what&#039;s the article on about?  It doesn&#039;t make sense...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Belle @ 49: Yeah, you&#8217;re right that the article is confusing. It has:</p>

	<p>&#8220;The $20 hourly wage, introduced on a huge scale in the middle of the last century, allowed masses of Americans with no more than a high school education to rise to the middle class. It was a marker, of sorts.&#8221;</p>

	<p>If the wage is in 2007 dollars, how could it have been a &#8216;marker&#8217; back in the middle of the century? I assume it&#8217;s a marker because it&#8217;s a nice, round number&#8212;mmmm, $20/hr&#8212;but if it was actually $6.50 or whatever, well, what&#8217;s the article on about?  It doesn&#8217;t make sense&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: mpowell</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/20/how-much-now/comment-page-2/#comment-236801</link>
		<dc:creator>mpowell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 16:29:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6841#comment-236801</guid>
		<description>57- yes, granted.  I was overstating the matter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>57- yes, granted.  I was overstating the matter.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/20/how-much-now/comment-page-2/#comment-236800</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 16:18:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6841#comment-236800</guid>
		<description>@56 - not everyone. Not underclass in the urban ghettos. That&#039;s why their politics are much more sensible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>@56 &#8211; not everyone. Not underclass in the urban ghettos. That&#8217;s why their politics are much more sensible.</p>
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		<title>By: mpowell</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/20/how-much-now/comment-page-2/#comment-236796</link>
		<dc:creator>mpowell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 15:37:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6841#comment-236796</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;
As a European, may I ask if this (see no. 41) is a widely held view in the USA
&lt;/i&gt;

deliasmith, as an American, I can assure you that there are no agreed upon standards as to what class means in the United States.  Just lots of different opinions.  The only thing that is common, I think, is that everyone thinks of themselves as middle class and aspires (and expects) to be rich at some time in the future.  This makes class-based politics virtually impossible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i><br />
As a European, may I ask if this (see no. 41) is a widely held view in the <span class="caps">USA</span><br />
</i></p>

	<p>deliasmith, as an American, I can assure you that there are no agreed upon standards as to what class means in the United States.  Just lots of different opinions.  The only thing that is common, I think, is that everyone thinks of themselves as middle class and aspires (and expects) to be rich at some time in the future.  This makes class-based politics virtually impossible.</p>
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		<title>By: deliasmith</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/20/how-much-now/comment-page-2/#comment-236784</link>
		<dc:creator>deliasmith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 14:02:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6841#comment-236784</guid>
		<description>As a European, may I ask if this (see no. 41) is a widely held view in the USA:

&quot;The problem is the use of the word &#039;class&#039; which doesn&#039;t mean income or wealth category. Class has lots of other connotations which are based upon specifically European history, culture and social structure. The fact that it doesn&#039;t apply well in the US should not be surprising.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>As a European, may I ask if this (see no. 41) is a widely held view in the <span class="caps">USA</span>:</p>

	<p>&#8220;The problem is the use of the word &#8216;class&#8217; which doesn&#8217;t mean income or wealth category. Class has lots of other connotations which are based upon specifically European history, culture and social structure. The fact that it doesn&#8217;t apply well in the US should not be surprising.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: Chris Stiles</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/20/how-much-now/comment-page-2/#comment-236783</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Stiles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 14:02:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6841#comment-236783</guid>
		<description>The following excerpts from an interview with Elizabeth Warren may be relevant in this context:

http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/people7/Warren/warren-con0.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The following excerpts from an interview with Elizabeth Warren may be relevant in this context:</p>

	<p><a href="http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/people7/Warren/warren-con0.html" rel="nofollow">http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/people7/Warren/warren-con0.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: bjk</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/20/how-much-now/comment-page-2/#comment-236779</link>
		<dc:creator>bjk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 13:43:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6841#comment-236779</guid>
		<description>I haven&#039;t yet reached that level of consciounsess, rea. Scapegoating get a bad rap.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I haven&#8217;t yet reached that level of consciounsess, rea. Scapegoating get a bad rap.</p>
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		<title>By: rea</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/20/how-much-now/comment-page-2/#comment-236770</link>
		<dc:creator>rea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 12:45:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6841#comment-236770</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;How is it possible to write an article on the decline of the hourly wage without mentioning immigration?&lt;/i&gt;

You are clearly right--something bad is happening, and we have to find an &quot;other&quot; to blame!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>How is it possible to write an article on the decline of the hourly wage without mentioning immigration?</i></p>

	<p>You are clearly right&#8212;something bad is happening, and we have to find an &#8220;other&#8221; to blame!</p>
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		<title>By: Gatherdust</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/20/how-much-now/comment-page-2/#comment-236766</link>
		<dc:creator>Gatherdust</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 11:41:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6841#comment-236766</guid>
		<description>Did the influx of women into the labor force between 1975 and 2000 drive down the wages of men? This change did represent a sizeable increase in the size of the available labor pool - across the various labor market segments as well. If immigration is important because it adds to the labor supply then there should be a prior effect from working women.

Of course, there is the little matter that men traditionally would not permit women to work for wages except for particular racial/ethnic and class reasons. So context is important.

Is it disciplinary or ideological blinders - or both - that so much attention is drawn to changes in labor supply rather than demand? Or context?

BTW and this is probably futile but class can be regarded solely a European thingie only if one overlooks the the past couple hundred years of capitalism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Did the influx of women into the labor force between 1975 and 2000 drive down the wages of men? This change did represent a sizeable increase in the size of the available labor pool &#8211; across the various labor market segments as well. If immigration is important because it adds to the labor supply then there should be a prior effect from working women.</p>

	<p>Of course, there is the little matter that men traditionally would not permit women to work for wages except for particular racial/ethnic and class reasons. So context is important.</p>

	<p>Is it disciplinary or ideological blinders &#8211; or both &#8211; that so much attention is drawn to changes in labor supply rather than demand? Or context?</p>

	<p><span class="caps">BTW</span> and this is probably futile but class can be regarded solely a European thingie only if one overlooks the the past couple hundred years of capitalism.</p>
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		<title>By: Yan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/20/how-much-now/comment-page-2/#comment-236765</link>
		<dc:creator>Yan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 11:26:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6841#comment-236765</guid>
		<description>&quot;Congratulations, you’re lower class. Along with a whole lot of people, self included, who might want to believe they’re middle class but definitely aren’t.&quot;

I see your point, but still find this misleading for the reasons I mentioned before (because everyone assumes they&#039;re middle class, an overgenerous definition helps disguise the extent of economic hardship, since the &quot;real&quot; middle class assumes everyone&#039;s as comfy as they are, the self-designated faux middle class assumes averyone else is as poor as they are.

I think it would be less deceptive to say there no longer is a middle class, just upper and lower.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Congratulations, you&#8217;re lower class. Along with a whole lot of people, self included, who might want to believe they&#8217;re middle class but definitely aren&#8217;t.&#8221;</p>

	<p>I see your point, but still find this misleading for the reasons I mentioned before (because everyone assumes they&#8217;re middle class, an overgenerous definition helps disguise the extent of economic hardship, since the &#8220;real&#8221; middle class assumes everyone&#8217;s as comfy as they are, the self-designated faux middle class assumes averyone else is as poor as they are.</p>

	<p>I think it would be less deceptive to say there no longer is a middle class, just upper and lower.</p>
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		<title>By: belle waring</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/20/how-much-now/comment-page-1/#comment-236764</link>
		<dc:creator>belle waring</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 10:55:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6841#comment-236764</guid>
		<description>wait, so I&#039;m just the confused one and the original ref was to 20 &lt;i&gt;2008 dollars&lt;/i&gt; an hour in the 1970s, so $7 or something? I submit my total confusion as evidence that the article was confusing, but this may not be compelling to all for various reasons.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>wait, so I&#8217;m just the confused one and the original ref was to 20 <i>2008 dollars</i> an hour in the 1970s, so $7 or something? I submit my total confusion as evidence that the article was confusing, but this may not be compelling to all for various reasons.</p>
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