Comments on: Education Optimists http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/23/education-optimists/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sun, 27 May 2012 05:09:40 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: magistra http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/23/education-optimists/comment-page-1/#comment-237303 magistra Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:08:58 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/23/education-optimists/#comment-237303 If you're going to have more posts like that, maybe you ought to change the title of the blog. If you’re going to have more posts like that, maybe you ought to change the title of the blog.

]]> By: salient downs http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/23/education-optimists/comment-page-1/#comment-237246 salient downs Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:14:05 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/23/education-optimists/#comment-237246 <i>For these reasons and many more, the student’s “grant” of up to $16K might suddenly become an unsubsidized loan amounting to far more with interest included (something along the lines of $40K over a 10 year period).</i> This happened to me (Kentucky's "Best In Class" program is quite similar to what you describe). The loan's for $42,000, for two years for graduate work. It won't be grant-converted by Best In Class over the years because I will not continue to meet all requirements of the program (a combination of reasons #4 and #5 above). Including just those loans and the interest/penalties they've already accumulated, and taking out taxes, I've made $2,800 total for teaching for two years, or $1,400 per year. It's a rather strong disincentive. For these reasons and many more, the student’s “grant” of up to $16K might suddenly become an unsubsidized loan amounting to far more with interest included (something along the lines of $40K over a 10 year period).

This happened to me (Kentucky’s “Best In Class” program is quite similar to what you describe). The loan’s for $42,000, for two years for graduate work. It won’t be grant-converted by Best In Class over the years because I will not continue to meet all requirements of the program (a combination of reasons #4 and #5 above).

Including just those loans and the interest/penalties they’ve already accumulated, and taking out taxes, I’ve made $2,800 total for teaching for two years, or $1,400 per year. It’s a rather strong disincentive.

]]> By: Bill Kirsch http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/23/education-optimists/comment-page-1/#comment-237141 Bill Kirsch Wed, 23 Apr 2008 15:46:28 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/23/education-optimists/#comment-237141 My wife took a similar offer from the state of Florida. They paid for her degree in Education with the provision that she work as a teacher in Florida for a certain time. When she graduated she canvassed the state looking for work. She was even willing to work in inner-city Miami. No one would hire her, and she got no help from the state. After a few years the state demanded she repay them in full with interest. My wife took a similar offer from the state of Florida. They paid for her degree in Education with the provision that she work as a teacher in Florida for a certain time. When she graduated she canvassed the state looking for work. She was even willing to work in inner-city Miami. No one would hire her, and she got no help from the state. After a few years the state demanded she repay them in full with interest.

]]> By: Picador http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/23/education-optimists/comment-page-1/#comment-237124 Picador Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:59:30 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/23/education-optimists/#comment-237124 Many law schools offer a similar "deal" to students interested in public interest work. Of course, the numbers are about an order of magnitude higher. At Columbia, here's how the program works: you sign up shortly after graduation, at which point Columbia commits to paying off your loans over a ten-year period (recently shortened to seven, in a much-publicized gesture of magnanimity from the Dean). Good deal, huh? But the requirements are similarly slippery. To stay qualified, you <i>and your spouse</i> need to make less than $50,000 or so, and you need to stay working <i>as a lawyer</i> in public interest or government. That means they kick you out of the program if you get married to someone with a middle-class job ($50k in NYC is pretty modest), if you lose your job, if you get pregnant and take a year off, if you find public intrest work doing something other than law, or if you fail to secure a public interest or government job (which are notoriously competitive). The consequences of getting kicked out of the program are severe. Your loans snap back at you, plus interest, plus an additional punitive charge of about 10%. My loans were about $175k; that's typical for someone who didn't have parents paying their way through law school. If you've been in the program for more than five years or so, it's not as bad, because the debt load that gets pushed back at you gets reduced 20% a year after the third or fourth year of the program, which means that after five or six years of work you might be able to break even (i.e., leave the program with the full debt load you would have had at graduation). Not surprisingly, almost nobody takes them up on this offer. The students who go into public interest work are almost without exception kids who had wealthy benefactors while in school. Everyone else ends up doing corporate law, because they're the only people who hire law school grads and pay them enough to meet their monthly loan payments. Granted, it's not a federal program like the TEACH grants. But it is one of those facts about legal education that helps explain why so many smart, hard-working, idealistic law students devoted to doing work in the public interest instead end up miserable, cynical alcoholics working at corporate firms. Many law schools offer a similar “deal” to students interested in public interest work. Of course, the numbers are about an order of magnitude higher.

At Columbia, here’s how the program works: you sign up shortly after graduation, at which point Columbia commits to paying off your loans over a ten-year period (recently shortened to seven, in a much-publicized gesture of magnanimity from the Dean). Good deal, huh?

But the requirements are similarly slippery. To stay qualified, you and your spouse need to make less than $50,000 or so, and you need to stay working as a lawyer in public interest or government. That means they kick you out of the program if you get married to someone with a middle-class job ($50k in NYC is pretty modest), if you lose your job, if you get pregnant and take a year off, if you find public intrest work doing something other than law, or if you fail to secure a public interest or government job (which are notoriously competitive).

The consequences of getting kicked out of the program are severe. Your loans snap back at you, plus interest, plus an additional punitive charge of about 10%. My loans were about $175k; that’s typical for someone who didn’t have parents paying their way through law school. If you’ve been in the program for more than five years or so, it’s not as bad, because the debt load that gets pushed back at you gets reduced 20% a year after the third or fourth year of the program, which means that after five or six years of work you might be able to break even (i.e., leave the program with the full debt load you would have had at graduation).

Not surprisingly, almost nobody takes them up on this offer. The students who go into public interest work are almost without exception kids who had wealthy benefactors while in school. Everyone else ends up doing corporate law, because they’re the only people who hire law school grads and pay them enough to meet their monthly loan payments.

Granted, it’s not a federal program like the TEACH grants. But it is one of those facts about legal education that helps explain why so many smart, hard-working, idealistic law students devoted to doing work in the public interest instead end up miserable, cynical alcoholics working at corporate firms.

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