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	<title>Comments on: The flame of nationalism</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/24/the-flame-of-nationalism/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/24/the-flame-of-nationalism/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/24/the-flame-of-nationalism/comment-page-2/#comment-237558</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Apr 2008 22:05:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6862#comment-237558</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s &lt;i&gt;Sir&lt;/i&gt; Elton John to you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>That&#8217;s <i>Sir</i> Elton John to you.</p>
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		<title>By: Roy Belmont</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/24/the-flame-of-nationalism/comment-page-2/#comment-237554</link>
		<dc:creator>Roy Belmont</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Apr 2008 20:47:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6862#comment-237554</guid>
		<description>Abb1 is the Elton John of Marxist-Leninist struggle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Abb1 is the Elton John of Marxist-Leninist struggle.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/24/the-flame-of-nationalism/comment-page-2/#comment-237553</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Apr 2008 20:03:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6862#comment-237553</guid>
		<description>Hey, &#039;quaint&#039; is correct, I agree. 

Obviously I am not advocating &#039;democratic centralism&#039;, a concept that is, in fact, remarkably similar to the controversial &#039;unitary executive&#039; doctrine: you are given a chance to elect your leader, but once it&#039;s done - shut up and follow. So it&#039;s not really that different from the modern political thought in the western liberal democracies. Or some of them, at least.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Hey, &#8216;quaint&#8217; is correct, I agree.</p>

	<p>Obviously I am not advocating &#8216;democratic centralism&#8217;, a concept that is, in fact, remarkably similar to the controversial &#8216;unitary executive&#8217; doctrine: you are given a chance to elect your leader, but once it&#8217;s done &#8211; shut up and follow. So it&#8217;s not really that different from the modern political thought in the western liberal democracies. Or some of them, at least.</p>
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		<title>By: DRR</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/24/the-flame-of-nationalism/comment-page-2/#comment-237551</link>
		<dc:creator>DRR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Apr 2008 19:31:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6862#comment-237551</guid>
		<description>A quote from Lenin, how cute...and quaint.

abb1 remains my favorite commenter here but that doesn&#039;t change the fact that he&#039;s still essentially an intellectual charlatan.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>A quote from Lenin, how cute&#8230;and quaint.</p>

	<p>abb1 remains my favorite commenter here but that doesn&#8217;t change the fact that he&#8217;s still essentially an intellectual charlatan.</p>
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		<title>By: SG</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/24/the-flame-of-nationalism/comment-page-2/#comment-237529</link>
		<dc:creator>SG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Apr 2008 14:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6862#comment-237529</guid>
		<description>I just came back from dinner with 2 Japanese people who told me that, until the 2000 Sydney Olympics, they had no idea about Australian Aboriginal history. To them Australia had always just been a cheerful, welcoming place with an image of openness and gentleness. But with the various discussions about rights surrounding the olympics, they came to learn (mainly through Cathy Freeman&#039;s story) about Indigenous history. It changed their view of Australia.

I had never really believed that activism around the olympics could make a difference. I don&#039;t know how much difference educating 2 ordinary Japanese people about Indigenous history is, but it seems like something. So maybe these protests do have some benefit (though in this case I&#039;m not sure that the protests are actually giving a truthful message - but that is a different issue).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I just came back from dinner with 2 Japanese people who told me that, until the 2000 Sydney Olympics, they had no idea about Australian Aboriginal history. To them Australia had always just been a cheerful, welcoming place with an image of openness and gentleness. But with the various discussions about rights surrounding the olympics, they came to learn (mainly through Cathy Freeman&#8217;s story) about Indigenous history. It changed their view of Australia.</p>

	<p>I had never really believed that activism around the olympics could make a difference. I don&#8217;t know how much difference educating 2 ordinary Japanese people about Indigenous history is, but it seems like something. So maybe these protests do have some benefit (though in this case I&#8217;m not sure that the protests are actually giving a truthful message &#8211; but that is a different issue).</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Kervick</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/24/the-flame-of-nationalism/comment-page-2/#comment-237511</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Kervick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Apr 2008 04:40:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6862#comment-237511</guid>
		<description>#50: &lt;i&gt;In that 5000 years is more than 3000 years, that’s a true thing. Just seriously inexact.&lt;/i&gt;

I didn&#039;t want to go out on a limb, since I don&#039;t know the current state of scholarship on the somewhat mythical Xia dynasty, or also whether it is or is not appropriate to regard pre-Shang settlements as part of the continuous civilization we call &quot;Chinese&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>#50: <i>In that 5000 years is more than 3000 years, that&#8217;s a true thing. Just seriously inexact.</i></p>

	<p>I didn&#8217;t want to go out on a limb, since I don&#8217;t know the current state of scholarship on the somewhat mythical Xia dynasty, or also whether it is or is not appropriate to regard pre-Shang settlements as part of the continuous civilization we call &#8220;Chinese&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Roy Belmont</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/24/the-flame-of-nationalism/comment-page-1/#comment-237502</link>
		<dc:creator>Roy Belmont</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Apr 2008 01:32:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6862#comment-237502</guid>
		<description>#26&quot;
&lt;i&gt;But Chinese civilization has been around for more than 3000 years...&lt;/i&gt;
In that &lt;a&gt;5000 years&lt;/a&gt; is more than 3000 years, that&#039;s a true thing. Just seriously inexact.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>#26&#8221;<br />
<i>But Chinese civilization has been around for more than 3000 years&#8230;</i><br />
In that <a>5000 years</a> is more than 3000 years, that&#8217;s a true thing. Just seriously inexact.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/24/the-flame-of-nationalism/comment-page-1/#comment-237399</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 15:32:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6862#comment-237399</guid>
		<description>Democratic centralism! 

&lt;blockquote&gt;
...We have combined, by a freely adopted decision, for the purpose of fighting the enemy, and not of retreating into the neighbouring marsh, the inhabitants of which, from the very outset, have reproached us with having separated ourselves into an exclusive group and with having chosen the path of struggle instead of the path of conciliation. And now some among us begin to cry out: Let us go into the marsh! And when we begin to shame them, they retort: What backward people you are! Are you not ashamed to deny us the liberty to invite you to take a better road! Oh, yes, gentlemen! You are free not only to invite us, but to go yourselves wherever you will, even into the marsh. In fact, we think that the marsh is your proper place, and we are prepared to render you every assistance to get there. Only let go of our hands, don’t clutch at us and don’t besmirch the grand word freedom, for we too are “free” to go where we please, free to fight not only against the marsh, but also against those who are turning towards the marsh! 
&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Democratic centralism!</p>

	<p><blockquote><br />
&#8230;We have combined, by a freely adopted decision, for the purpose of fighting the enemy, and not of retreating into the neighbouring marsh, the inhabitants of which, from the very outset, have reproached us with having separated ourselves into an exclusive group and with having chosen the path of struggle instead of the path of conciliation. And now some among us begin to cry out: Let us go into the marsh! And when we begin to shame them, they retort: What backward people you are! Are you not ashamed to deny us the liberty to invite you to take a better road! Oh, yes, gentlemen! You are free not only to invite us, but to go yourselves wherever you will, even into the marsh. In fact, we think that the marsh is your proper place, and we are prepared to render you every assistance to get there. Only let go of our hands, don&#8217;t clutch at us and don&#8217;t besmirch the grand word freedom, for we too are &#8220;free&#8221; to go where we please, free to fight not only against the marsh, but also against those who are turning towards the marsh!<br />
</blockquote></p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/24/the-flame-of-nationalism/comment-page-1/#comment-237397</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 14:55:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6862#comment-237397</guid>
		<description>So is true that &#039;China is a &quot;barbaric&quot; totalitarian state which must never be mentioned without unqualified condemnation&#039; or that &#039;China is kewl and who needs outdated imperialist dogmas like &quot;democracy&quot; anyway?&#039;. I await the verdict of the people of the Internet with interest...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>So is true that &#8216;China is a &#8220;barbaric&#8221; totalitarian state which must never be mentioned without unqualified condemnation&#8217; or that &#8216;China is kewl and who needs outdated imperialist dogmas like &#8220;democracy&#8221; anyway?&#8217;. I await the verdict of the people of the Internet with interest&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: ajay</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/24/the-flame-of-nationalism/comment-page-1/#comment-237390</link>
		<dc:creator>ajay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 13:42:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6862#comment-237390</guid>
		<description>40: &lt;i&gt;No one has remarked on the enthusiasm of putative totalitarian regimes for staging the Olympic Games – remember Berlin, the venue for the Olympics in 1936?&lt;/i&gt;

Enthusiasm, possibly, but if you look back at history you&#039;ll find that very few dictatorships have ever hosted the games. The only ones, I think, have been Berlin (1936) and Moscow (1980).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>40: <i>No one has remarked on the enthusiasm of putative totalitarian regimes for staging the Olympic Games &#8211; remember Berlin, the venue for the Olympics in 1936?</i></p>

	<p>Enthusiasm, possibly, but if you look back at history you&#8217;ll find that very few dictatorships have ever hosted the games. The only ones, I think, have been Berlin (1936) and Moscow (1980).</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/24/the-flame-of-nationalism/comment-page-1/#comment-237386</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 12:20:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6862#comment-237386</guid>
		<description>Why, it&#039;s democratic within the accepted boundaries, like any political party. One can&#039;t advocate higher degree of income redistribution while being a US Republican party functionnaire. You have a volunteer grassroots-organization of 73 million people, leaders are elected. Of course it has a platform you have to adhere to, that&#039;s normal. The issue is not the party itself, it&#039;s the fact that there is no real opposition party, even though the PRC, in fact, is a multi-party state.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Why, it&#8217;s democratic within the accepted boundaries, like any political party. One can&#8217;t advocate higher degree of income redistribution while being a <span class="caps">US </span>Republican party functionnaire. You have a volunteer grassroots-organization of 73 million people, leaders are elected. Of course it has a platform you have to adhere to, that&#8217;s normal. The issue is not the party itself, it&#8217;s the fact that there is no real opposition party, even though the <span class="caps">PRC</span>, in fact, is a multi-party state.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/24/the-flame-of-nationalism/comment-page-1/#comment-237382</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 11:10:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6862#comment-237382</guid>
		<description>At this point abb1, when I am discussing a situation with someone who can describe a Marxist-Leninist vanguard party as a democratic organisation, I just laugh, and walk away. Bye.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>At this point abb1, when I am discussing a situation with someone who can describe a Marxist-Leninist vanguard party as a democratic organisation, I just laugh, and walk away. Bye.</p>
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		<title>By: bernarda</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/24/the-flame-of-nationalism/comment-page-1/#comment-237378</link>
		<dc:creator>bernarda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 09:04:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6862#comment-237378</guid>
		<description>I disagree with this, &quot;In fact, however, the protests have focused* entirely on the national claims of Tibet (as represented by the government in exile of the Dalai Lama) and have produced an unsurprising nationalist reaction in China (effectively in support of the existing government).&quot;

Many commentators have talked about the general detestable character of the Chinese Regime, like Cafferty who is amply criticized on youtube by Chinese goons and thugs working for the Party.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I disagree with this, &#8220;In fact, however, the protests have focused* entirely on the national claims of Tibet (as represented by the government in exile of the Dalai Lama) and have produced an unsurprising nationalist reaction in China (effectively in support of the existing government).&#8221;</p>

	<p>Many commentators have talked about the general detestable character of the Chinese Regime, like Cafferty who is amply criticized on youtube by Chinese goons and thugs working for the Party.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/24/the-flame-of-nationalism/comment-page-1/#comment-237377</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 08:54:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6862#comment-237377</guid>
		<description>The problem with absolute monarchs is that it was a hereditary system and peasants&#039; interests weren&#039;t represented. In China instead of monarchs you have a party of something like 70 million people - itself a democratic institution. And if you want to make a career as a party apparatchik you have to start from the bottom, as a laborer, that&#039;s required (or, at least, this is how it worked in the Soviet Union).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The problem with absolute monarchs is that it was a hereditary system and peasants&#8217; interests weren&#8217;t represented. In China instead of monarchs you have a party of something like 70 million people &#8211; itself a democratic institution. And if you want to make a career as a party apparatchik you have to start from the bottom, as a laborer, that&#8217;s required (or, at least, this is how it worked in the Soviet Union).</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/04/24/the-flame-of-nationalism/comment-page-1/#comment-237373</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 07:47:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6862#comment-237373</guid>
		<description>@38: &quot;...It argues for the institutional buildup of democratic infrastructures to ensure what could eventually be the beginning of a more extensive move towards democracy....&quot;

Or, in other words, some book says that what the CCP allows peasants to do [which is, from that brief summary, no more than, say, the absolute monarchs of C18 France &#039;allowed&#039; their peasants to do, self-organise to meet immediate material needs and the external demands of the state] might, in the future, potentially, become a way of letting those same peasants have real power [which would, therefore, negate the current real power of the CCP]. The end point sounds fine, but I think the road-map for getting there is a tad optimistic. Local autogestion is meaningless in political terms if it continues to operate sous tutelle of a one-party state.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>@38: &#8220;&#8230;It argues for the institutional buildup of democratic infrastructures to ensure what could eventually be the beginning of a more extensive move towards democracy&#8230;.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Or, in other words, some book says that what the <span class="caps">CCP</span> allows peasants to do [which is, from that brief summary, no more than, say, the absolute monarchs of <span class="caps">C18 </span>France &#8216;allowed&#8217; their peasants to do, self-organise to meet immediate material needs and the external demands of the state] might, in the future, potentially, become a way of letting those same peasants have real power [which would, therefore, negate the current real power of the <span class="caps">CCP</span>]. The end point sounds fine, but I think the road-map for getting there is a tad optimistic. Local autogestion is meaningless in political terms if it continues to operate sous tutelle of a one-party state.</p>
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