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	<title>Comments on: What about violent necrophiliac gay bestiality?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/09/what-about-violent-necrophiliac-gay-bestiality/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/09/what-about-violent-necrophiliac-gay-bestiality/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: mario</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/09/what-about-violent-necrophiliac-gay-bestiality/comment-page-2/#comment-240095</link>
		<dc:creator>mario</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 22:07:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6902#comment-240095</guid>
		<description>Us humans are at best partially rational (as Plato knew, if we’re swapping philosophical allusions), and the defense of rationality requires institutions which exclude some forms of speech. Your appeal to Mill against this line of thought is a bit odd,</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Us humans are at best partially rational (as Plato knew, if we&#8217;re swapping philosophical allusions), and the defense of rationality requires institutions which exclude some forms of speech. Your appeal to Mill against this line of thought is a bit odd,</p>
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		<title>By: dsquared</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/09/what-about-violent-necrophiliac-gay-bestiality/comment-page-2/#comment-239833</link>
		<dc:creator>dsquared</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 16:31:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6902#comment-239833</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Could someone clarify for me whether the large sections of the Old Testament devoted to holy war and incitement against other religions would be covered by this?&lt;/i&gt;

depends on context.  Not in and of themselves lying in a bookshop, but if you were to get a gang together with flaming torches to stand outside &quot;G-A-Y&quot; and started reading the nastiest bits of Leviticus through a megaphone, you&#039;d get your collar felt.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Could someone clarify for me whether the large sections of the Old Testament devoted to holy war and incitement against other religions would be covered by this?</i></p>

	<p>depends on context.  Not in and of themselves lying in a bookshop, but if you were to get a gang together with flaming torches to stand outside &#8220;G-A-Y&#8221; and started reading the nastiest bits of Leviticus through a megaphone, you&#8217;d get your collar felt.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/09/what-about-violent-necrophiliac-gay-bestiality/comment-page-2/#comment-239817</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 15:33:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6902#comment-239817</guid>
		<description>Fair enough John B - I&#039;m not reading this with a lawyer&#039;s eyes. It depends on what one means by &quot;other means of whatever nature&quot; and &quot;derived&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Fair enough John B &#8211; I&#8217;m not reading this with a lawyer&#8217;s eyes. It depends on what one means by &#8220;other means of whatever nature&#8221; and &#8220;derived&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: chris y</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/09/what-about-violent-necrophiliac-gay-bestiality/comment-page-2/#comment-239806</link>
		<dc:creator>chris y</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 14:04:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6902#comment-239806</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Worth noting that the UK extreme pornography legislation only applies to photographs or pseudophotographs, as with the existing UK child pornography legislation.&lt;/i&gt;

Which is indeed worth noting if you&#039;re looking at the inconsistencies here, since the most disturbing images on the web which are easily avalable tend to be &lt;i&gt;manga&lt;/i&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Worth noting that the UK extreme pornography legislation only applies to photographs or pseudophotographs, as with the existing UK child pornography legislation.</i></p>

	<p>Which is indeed worth noting if you&#8217;re looking at the inconsistencies here, since the most disturbing images on the web which are easily avalable tend to be <i>manga</i>.</p>
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		<title>By: Pete</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/09/what-about-violent-necrophiliac-gay-bestiality/comment-page-2/#comment-239805</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 14:00:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6902#comment-239805</guid>
		<description>Could someone clarify for me whether the large sections of the Old Testament devoted to holy war and incitement against other religions would be covered by this?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Could someone clarify for me whether the large sections of the Old Testament devoted to holy war and incitement against other religions would be covered by this?</p>
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		<title>By: john b</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/09/what-about-violent-necrophiliac-gay-bestiality/comment-page-2/#comment-239735</link>
		<dc:creator>john b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 22:10:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6902#comment-239735</guid>
		<description>In child pornography law, which AIUI uses the same terminology, it&#039;s taken to mean references in the sense of being photoshopped or physically traced, not in the sense of being inspired by / copied from.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>In child pornography law, which <span class="caps">AIUI</span> uses the same terminology, it&#8217;s taken to mean references in the sense of being photoshopped or physically traced, not in the sense of being inspired by / copied from.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/09/what-about-violent-necrophiliac-gay-bestiality/comment-page-2/#comment-239693</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 17:23:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6902#comment-239693</guid>
		<description>Er John B at 52 - you may be wrong. direct from the bill itself:

&quot;References to a photograph also include—
a tracing or other image, whether made by electronic or other means (of whatever nature)—
which is not itself a photograph or pseudo-photograph, but which is derived from the whole or part of a photograph or pseudo-photograph (or a combination of either or both); and 
data stored on a computer disc or by other electronic means which is capable of conversion into an image within paragraph and subsection (8) applies in relation to such an image as it applies in relation to a pseudo-photograph.&quot;

That sounds to me as though sculpture is OK but oil or watercolour paintings would be illegal if the prosecution could find photo references.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Er John B at 52 &#8211; you may be wrong. direct from the bill itself:</p>

	<p>&#8220;References to a photograph also include&#8212;<br />
a tracing or other image, whether made by electronic or other means (of whatever nature)&#8212;<br />
which is not itself a photograph or pseudo-photograph, but which is derived from the whole or part of a photograph or pseudo-photograph (or a combination of either or both); and<br />
data stored on a computer disc or by other electronic means which is capable of conversion into an image within paragraph and subsection (8) applies in relation to such an image as it applies in relation to a pseudo-photograph.&#8221;</p>

	<p>That sounds to me as though sculpture is OK but oil or watercolour paintings would be illegal if the prosecution could find photo references.</p>
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		<title>By: john b</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/09/what-about-violent-necrophiliac-gay-bestiality/comment-page-2/#comment-239684</link>
		<dc:creator>john b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 16:06:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6902#comment-239684</guid>
		<description>[it has just occurred to me that, &lt;i&gt;pace&lt;/i&gt; previous threads, I have absolutely no idea to what extent the Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill or the Sexual Offences Act 2003 apply in Scotland or Northern Ireland. So best substitute &quot;England and Wales&quot; for UK above...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[it has just occurred to me that, <i>pace</i> previous threads, I have absolutely no idea to what extent the Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill or the Sexual Offences Act 2003 apply in Scotland or Northern Ireland. So best substitute &#8220;England and Wales&#8221; for UK above&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: john b</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/09/what-about-violent-necrophiliac-gay-bestiality/comment-page-2/#comment-239682</link>
		<dc:creator>john b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 15:59:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6902#comment-239682</guid>
		<description>Worth noting that the UK extreme pornography legislation only applies to photographs or pseudophotographs, as with the existing UK child pornography legislation. 

So statues of Pan-on-goat or cartoons of girl-on-zombie action remain OK. Non-photorealistic CGI should also be OK, although it wouldn&#039;t surprise me if the definitional problems cited by Picador put off many artists.

(AIUI Canada is even madder than the UK in this respect, criminalising the posession of extreme pornography &lt;i&gt;in written story form&lt;/i&gt;...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Worth noting that the UK extreme pornography legislation only applies to photographs or pseudophotographs, as with the existing UK child pornography legislation.</p>

	<p>So statues of Pan-on-goat or cartoons of girl-on-zombie action remain OK. Non-photorealistic <span class="caps">CGI</span> should also be OK, although it wouldn&#8217;t surprise me if the definitional problems cited by Picador put off many artists.</p>

	<p>(AIUI Canada is even madder than the UK in this respect, criminalising the posession of extreme pornography <i>in written story form</i>&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: Picador</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/09/what-about-violent-necrophiliac-gay-bestiality/comment-page-2/#comment-239673</link>
		<dc:creator>Picador</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 14:25:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6902#comment-239673</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;It seems like an overly literal interpretation of any laws, and that I guess is one problem that can arise in this area.&lt;/i&gt;

Actually, the problem with prior restraint on speech is that if there is any ambiguity at all in how to read a law, its effect will be to chill any speech that could conceivably fall within its bounds. A &quot;literal interpretation&quot; is perhaps the &lt;i&gt;best&lt;/i&gt; case anyone could hope for; but of course, when the class of speech that results in a prison term isn&#039;t capable of precise, literal definition (most forms of speech aren&#039;t), we must be very careful to avoid saying anything that we fear a judge might possibly interpret as falling within the bounds of the statute.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>It seems like an overly literal interpretation of any laws, and that I guess is one problem that can arise in this area.</i></p>

	<p>Actually, the problem with prior restraint on speech is that if there is any ambiguity at all in how to read a law, its effect will be to chill any speech that could conceivably fall within its bounds. A &#8220;literal interpretation&#8221; is perhaps the <i>best</i> case anyone could hope for; but of course, when the class of speech that results in a prison term isn&#8217;t capable of precise, literal definition (most forms of speech aren&#8217;t), we must be very careful to avoid saying anything that we fear a judge might possibly interpret as falling within the bounds of the statute.</p>
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		<title>By: stuart</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/09/what-about-violent-necrophiliac-gay-bestiality/comment-page-1/#comment-239656</link>
		<dc:creator>stuart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 11:56:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6902#comment-239656</guid>
		<description>I remember one particular censorship decision that some arm of the Canadian government made - you could import a US made comic where two humans are having sex, or two aliens, or an alien and a human, two dragons transformed into humans, and all sorts of other possibilities, but not two humans that have been transformed into centaurs, or in a seperate decision on a later volume, a human that transforms himself a jaguar when having sex. It seems like an overly literal interpretation of any laws, and that I guess is one problem that can arise in this area.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I remember one particular censorship decision that some arm of the Canadian government made &#8211; you could import a US made comic where two humans are having sex, or two aliens, or an alien and a human, two dragons transformed into humans, and all sorts of other possibilities, but not two humans that have been transformed into centaurs, or in a seperate decision on a later volume, a human that transforms himself a jaguar when having sex. It seems like an overly literal interpretation of any laws, and that I guess is one problem that can arise in this area.</p>
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		<title>By: magistra</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/09/what-about-violent-necrophiliac-gay-bestiality/comment-page-1/#comment-239644</link>
		<dc:creator>magistra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 09:36:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6902#comment-239644</guid>
		<description>If any group really wants to counter the porn ban, they need to link up with historians of Roman art. When respectable classicists start enquiring whether if they look at an image of the God Pan copulating with a goat (which has been known to feature in &#039;Art History&#039; journal), they are criminals, then it might get politicians thinking a bit more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>If any group really wants to counter the porn ban, they need to link up with historians of Roman art. When respectable classicists start enquiring whether if they look at an image of the God Pan copulating with a goat (which has been known to feature in &#8216;Art History&#8217; journal), they are criminals, then it might get politicians thinking a bit more.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon H</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/09/what-about-violent-necrophiliac-gay-bestiality/comment-page-1/#comment-239550</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 06:24:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6902#comment-239550</guid>
		<description>Martin Wisse wrote: &quot;You just look at the pictures?&quot;

A hit! A palpable hit!

Nah, I&#039;ve only heard of it via comics-blog mockery of the items in the monthly &#039;Previews&#039; catalog of upcoming releases.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Martin Wisse wrote: &#8220;You just look at the pictures?&#8221;</p>

	<p>A hit! A palpable hit!</p>

	<p>Nah, I&#8217;ve only heard of it via comics-blog mockery of the items in the monthly &#8216;Previews&#8217; catalog of upcoming releases.</p>
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		<title>By: Thlayli</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/09/what-about-violent-necrophiliac-gay-bestiality/comment-page-1/#comment-239512</link>
		<dc:creator>Thlayli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 14:20:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6902#comment-239512</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Also bestiality porn, and as far as I can see Plaid Cymru didn’t so much as raise an objection.&lt;/i&gt;

Now, that&#039;s just rude.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Also bestiality porn, and as far as I can see Plaid Cymru didn&#8217;t so much as raise an objection.</i></p>

	<p>Now, that&#8217;s just rude.</p>
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		<title>By: Naadir Jeewa</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/09/what-about-violent-necrophiliac-gay-bestiality/comment-page-1/#comment-239511</link>
		<dc:creator>Naadir Jeewa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 14:12:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6902#comment-239511</guid>
		<description>Brett:

But we don&#039;t live in Mills time. We live in the age of the Internet, which could be equivalent to an angry crowd gathered at the corn dealers door?

A lot of the 2006 protest was used as a way of saying &quot;all religions are stupid, so they deserve mockery.&quot; Given the mainstream acceptance of Amis/Dawkins/Hitchens et al. &quot;muscular liberal&quot; case against Islam, this was something to be cheered. I as a British Asian on the receiving end of all this don&#039;t distinguish much between them and the BNP, but anyway, I came to terms with one of my loved comedians Stewart Lee stepping out of satire and into all-out religion-bashing on TV.

The homosexuality case is at least a bit more black-and-white. Anyone considering deriding homosexuality is rightfully dismissed as an idiot by all liberals. The religious and Muslims in particular don&#039;t get equal treatment.

On slightly less firm territory, it might be interesting to see how the links between homophobia and certain religious views have made the anti-religion and the LGBT movement one and the same.

- A member of the carrying-Guardian-under-arm class.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Brett:</p>

	<p>But we don&#8217;t live in Mills time. We live in the age of the Internet, which could be equivalent to an angry crowd gathered at the corn dealers door?</p>

	<p>A lot of the 2006 protest was used as a way of saying &#8220;all religions are stupid, so they deserve mockery.&#8221; Given the mainstream acceptance of Amis/Dawkins/Hitchens et al. &#8220;muscular liberal&#8221; case against Islam, this was something to be cheered. I as a British Asian on the receiving end of all this don&#8217;t distinguish much between them and the <span class="caps">BNP</span>, but anyway, I came to terms with one of my loved comedians Stewart Lee stepping out of satire and into all-out religion-bashing on TV.</p>

	<p>The homosexuality case is at least a bit more black-and-white. Anyone considering deriding homosexuality is rightfully dismissed as an idiot by all liberals. The religious and Muslims in particular don&#8217;t get equal treatment.</p>

	<p>On slightly less firm territory, it might be interesting to see how the links between homophobia and certain religious views have made the anti-religion and the <span class="caps">LGBT</span> movement one and the same.</p>
 &#8211; A member of the carrying-Guardian-under-arm class.
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