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	<title>Comments on: Ironing out the rug rats</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/12/civilising-the-rug-rats/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Roy Belmont</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/12/civilising-the-rug-rats/comment-page-1/#comment-240270</link>
		<dc:creator>Roy Belmont</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 May 2008 22:05:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6910#comment-240270</guid>
		<description>#35:
To refine that a little, it&#039;s absorbing information &lt;i&gt;as presented&lt;/i&gt; including how by whom and where. All of those come from a received presumption of commonality and normalcy as well as appropriateness that perspective can make look insane, or primitive and visionless at best.
 My father was a teacher, a good one, in that his students recalled him with fondness and said they learned well from him. That said he spent a great deal of his non-classroom energy organizing with and fighting for the rights of his fellow teachers, against a system that&#039;s done nothing over the years but become so ubiquitous and powerfully present it&#039;s virtually invisible. Children learn from within the context of that system as much as from inside the classroom.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>#35:<br />
To refine that a little, it&#8217;s absorbing information <i>as presented</i> including how by whom and where. All of those come from a received presumption of commonality and normalcy as well as appropriateness that perspective can make look insane, or primitive and visionless at best.<br />
My father was a teacher, a good one, in that his students recalled him with fondness and said they learned well from him. That said he spent a great deal of his non-classroom energy organizing with and fighting for the rights of his fellow teachers, against a system that&#8217;s done nothing over the years but become so ubiquitous and powerfully present it&#8217;s virtually invisible. Children learn from within the context of that system as much as from inside the classroom.</p>
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		<title>By: Annaick</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/12/civilising-the-rug-rats/comment-page-1/#comment-240194</link>
		<dc:creator>Annaick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 May 2008 15:09:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6910#comment-240194</guid>
		<description>Re above: I also meant to say the System caters best to kids that absorb information without much problem and those with difficulty then get into trouble naturally.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Re above: I also meant to say the System caters best to kids that absorb information without much problem and those with difficulty then get into trouble naturally.</p>
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		<title>By: Annaick</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/12/civilising-the-rug-rats/comment-page-1/#comment-240193</link>
		<dc:creator>Annaick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 May 2008 15:07:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6910#comment-240193</guid>
		<description>Vivian, To be honest I am not an expert as I have only started the course in February and we are still learning the ropes. But from what I have heard, the answer to your question is kids with difficulties such as ADD/ADHD, ABA etc.... are not dealt with very well at all. Each child has to be &quot;caught&quot; by a teacher first, who then is advised to make an IEP (Individual Educational Programme), and i that doesn&#039;t work they can call in the Principal, and later the parents. Then if there are problems still ( which of course there very often are) and the child needs dedicated help they need to be assessed-Two years long waiting list (and alot of kids of course fall further behind in all aspects of their education as a result) and even then they may or may not be assigned  &quot;hours&quot; every week with different kinds of support teachers, who seem to be over-worked quite a lot. Basically there is not enough support for kids. The entire educational system is directly aimed at middle classes (as correctly pointed out by some of my lecturers) and kids that fall either side of that spectrum have to struggle all the way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Vivian, To be honest I am not an expert as I have only started the course in February and we are still learning the ropes. But from what I have heard, the answer to your question is kids with difficulties such as <span class="caps">ADD</span>/ADHD, <span class="caps">ABA</span> etc&#8230;. are not dealt with very well at all. Each child has to be &#8220;caught&#8221; by a teacher first, who then is advised to make an <span class="caps">IEP </span>(Individual Educational Programme), and i that doesn&#8217;t work they can call in the Principal, and later the parents. Then if there are problems still ( which of course there very often are) and the child needs dedicated help they need to be assessed-Two years long waiting list (and alot of kids of course fall further behind in all aspects of their education as a result) and even then they may or may not be assigned  &#8220;hours&#8221; every week with different kinds of support teachers, who seem to be over-worked quite a lot. Basically there is not enough support for kids. The entire educational system is directly aimed at middle classes (as correctly pointed out by some of my lecturers) and kids that fall either side of that spectrum have to struggle all the way.</p>
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		<title>By: Roy Belmont</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/12/civilising-the-rug-rats/comment-page-1/#comment-240138</link>
		<dc:creator>Roy Belmont</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 May 2008 06:43:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6910#comment-240138</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;Although, in retrospect, I did deserve it as well.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;
Welcome to Stockholm.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>&#8220;Although, in retrospect, I did deserve it as well.&#8221;</i><br />
Welcome to Stockholm.</p>
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		<title>By: Tangurena</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/12/civilising-the-rug-rats/comment-page-1/#comment-240126</link>
		<dc:creator>Tangurena</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 May 2008 02:31:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6910#comment-240126</guid>
		<description>Hmm. I don&#039;t have an answer for your question, but I did go to high school over in Ireland, and I do remember teachers flinging chalk and erasers at students. Although, in retrospect, I did deserve it as well. The school was called &quot;non-denominational&quot; which in the 70s meant &quot;not Catholic.&quot;  

If our family had moved there one year prior, then I would have had to learn Irish (my younger sister did and she remembers nothing more than &quot;ta&quot; and &quot;nil&quot;). 

I think the Welsh folks had picked up a better scheme: game shows. These showed adults making complete fools of themselves with vocabulary that was beginner level. I couldn&#039;t remember the name of the show, but like all things Welsh, I think it lacked vowels (that we would recognize). Sort of like Russian - another vowel deficient language. The shows were so silly that I&#039;d even watch them (for the American audience, folks on the east coast of Ireland could pick up some channels broadcast from Wales so that RTE wasn&#039;t the only thing viewable). Hmm. After writing that sentence, perhaps I watched them just to avoid RTE. But on the gripping hand, Welsh was pleasing to my ear, being rather sing-songy when spoken by an native speaker, so if that had been readily available, I would have picked that language up (rather than the German and Spanish that I did learn in HS which I couldn&#039;t evade; versus the Latin, Irish and French that I successfully evaded).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Hmm. I don&#8217;t have an answer for your question, but I did go to high school over in Ireland, and I do remember teachers flinging chalk and erasers at students. Although, in retrospect, I did deserve it as well. The school was called &#8220;non-denominational&#8221; which in the 70s meant &#8220;not Catholic.&#8221;</p>

	<p>If our family had moved there one year prior, then I would have had to learn Irish (my younger sister did and she remembers nothing more than &#8220;ta&#8221; and &#8220;nil&#8221;).</p>

	<p>I think the Welsh folks had picked up a better scheme: game shows. These showed adults making complete fools of themselves with vocabulary that was beginner level. I couldn&#8217;t remember the name of the show, but like all things Welsh, I think it lacked vowels (that we would recognize). Sort of like Russian &#8211; another vowel deficient language. The shows were so silly that I&#8217;d even watch them (for the American audience, folks on the east coast of Ireland could pick up some channels broadcast from Wales so that <span class="caps">RTE</span> wasn&#8217;t the only thing viewable). Hmm. After writing that sentence, perhaps I watched them just to avoid <span class="caps">RTE</span>. But on the gripping hand, Welsh was pleasing to my ear, being rather sing-songy when spoken by an native speaker, so if that had been readily available, I would have picked that language up (rather than the German and Spanish that I did learn in HS which I couldn&#8217;t evade; versus the Latin, Irish and French that I successfully evaded).</p>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/12/civilising-the-rug-rats/comment-page-1/#comment-240117</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 May 2008 00:40:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6910#comment-240117</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure I can remember effective teaching tricks for getting the tykes to concentrate; but I just had a sudden memory of my 6th grade teacher, Mr. Galick, asking us to do a creative science project on anatomy. We were allowed to work on it with our parents (as we were only 11). My father went all crazy-inspired and he single-handedly reconstructed an entire chicken’s bone structure from a misfortunate market hen. Mr. Galick, who we all had a crush on, fell in love with the white-painted, wired-up chicken skeleton and he confiscated it after securing my very intimidated permission to do so. I&#039;m sorry to say I never saw that chicken again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m not sure I can remember effective teaching tricks for getting the tykes to concentrate; but I just had a sudden memory of my 6th grade teacher, Mr. Galick, asking us to do a creative science project on anatomy. We were allowed to work on it with our parents (as we were only 11). My father went all crazy-inspired and he single-handedly reconstructed an entire chicken&#8217;s bone structure from a misfortunate market hen. Mr. Galick, who we all had a crush on, fell in love with the white-painted, wired-up chicken skeleton and he confiscated it after securing my very intimidated permission to do so. I&#8217;m sorry to say I never saw that chicken again.</p>
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		<title>By: vivian</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/12/civilising-the-rug-rats/comment-page-1/#comment-239924</link>
		<dc:creator>vivian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 01:46:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6910#comment-239924</guid>
		<description>My son&#039;s former teacher (for a class of 5-6 year old kids) seemed to have a quick song for everything, complete with hand/arm movements. Annaick, how do the Irish schools handle things like kids with ADD/ADHD or kids on the autism spectrum?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>My son&#8217;s former teacher (for a class of 5-6 year old kids) seemed to have a quick song for everything, complete with hand/arm movements. Annaick, how do the Irish schools handle things like kids with <span class="caps">ADD</span>/ADHD or kids on the autism spectrum?</p>
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		<title>By: franck</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/12/civilising-the-rug-rats/comment-page-1/#comment-239922</link>
		<dc:creator>franck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 00:56:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6910#comment-239922</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s always shocking to me how horrible Irish language education is in Ireland outside of the Gaeltacht and the gaelscoileanna.  It&#039;s almost like the whole point of it was to churn out people who fear and loathe the Irish language.  The people I have met who are most against the Irish language in general are Irish citizens educated in the 50s and 60s.  It seems like in many ways it is still terrible, unlike say Welsh language education.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It&#8217;s always shocking to me how horrible Irish language education is in Ireland outside of the Gaeltacht and the gaelscoileanna.  It&#8217;s almost like the whole point of it was to churn out people who fear and loathe the Irish language.  The people I have met who are most against the Irish language in general are Irish citizens educated in the 50s and 60s.  It seems like in many ways it is still terrible, unlike say Welsh language education.</p>
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		<title>By: notsneaky</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/12/civilising-the-rug-rats/comment-page-1/#comment-239902</link>
		<dc:creator>notsneaky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 21:40:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6910#comment-239902</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t remember learning anything in primary school, just getting in trouble all the time. Oh yeah, I do remember learning about sex from that one time sex ed class we had.

For that matter I don&#039;t remember learning anything in high school either, just getting in trouble all the time. And also learning about sex.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I don&#8217;t remember learning anything in primary school, just getting in trouble all the time. Oh yeah, I do remember learning about sex from that one time sex ed class we had.</p>

	<p>For that matter I don&#8217;t remember learning anything in high school either, just getting in trouble all the time. And also learning about sex.</p>
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		<title>By: The Modesto Kid</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/12/civilising-the-rug-rats/comment-page-1/#comment-239870</link>
		<dc:creator>The Modesto Kid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 18:50:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6910#comment-239870</guid>
		<description>Ah, memory! Actually I think instead of being given the toothpicks and glue, we may have had a budget and had to buy toothpicks in lots of ten and glue in thimblesful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Ah, memory! Actually I think instead of being given the toothpicks and glue, we may have had a budget and had to buy toothpicks in lots of ten and glue in thimblesful.</p>
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		<title>By: The Modesto Kid</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/12/civilising-the-rug-rats/comment-page-1/#comment-239868</link>
		<dc:creator>The Modesto Kid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 18:46:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6910#comment-239868</guid>
		<description>One thing I remember enjoying from elementary school was bridge building: every year we had a competition to see who could design and build the strongest bridge out of toothpicks and elmers glue.

The teacher gave each team a piece of cardboard with the spots marked where the bridge should touch the ground, and a hole chopped in between the two spots, and a box of toothpicks and a tube of glue. We then had a day (or so, I don&#039;t remember exactly) to build our bridge. At the end, all the bridges would get loaded with weight on a tray dangling from the center, whichever broke last won. The pedagogical point was the structural stability of triangles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>One thing I remember enjoying from elementary school was bridge building: every year we had a competition to see who could design and build the strongest bridge out of toothpicks and elmers glue.</p>

	<p>The teacher gave each team a piece of cardboard with the spots marked where the bridge should touch the ground, and a hole chopped in between the two spots, and a box of toothpicks and a tube of glue. We then had a day (or so, I don&#8217;t remember exactly) to build our bridge. At the end, all the bridges would get loaded with weight on a tray dangling from the center, whichever broke last won. The pedagogical point was the structural stability of triangles.</p>
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		<title>By: kharris</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/12/civilising-the-rug-rats/comment-page-1/#comment-239867</link>
		<dc:creator>kharris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 18:45:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6910#comment-239867</guid>
		<description>A couple of Singapore math tricks might help.  There&#039;s a number line exercises that involves the teacher pointing up or down.  One child or many children count in the direction indicated, and the teacher changes direction at random.  The change in direction keeps the kids on edge.  Once the idea is mastered, the teacher goes from ones to twos to threes and so on, thereby using a familiar, active technique to go from counting to addition and subtraction.  The second technique is the same game, but a kid is in charge.  The job for the kid in charge is to stop the &quot;student&quot; (who may be the teacher, another kid, or any handy adult) when mistakes are made.  That means the kid in charge has to do math upstairs.  The other kids can be kept on edge if the whole affair is treated like a game.  They see if they can catch mistakes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>A couple of Singapore math tricks might help.  There&#8217;s a number line exercises that involves the teacher pointing up or down.  One child or many children count in the direction indicated, and the teacher changes direction at random.  The change in direction keeps the kids on edge.  Once the idea is mastered, the teacher goes from ones to twos to threes and so on, thereby using a familiar, active technique to go from counting to addition and subtraction.  The second technique is the same game, but a kid is in charge.  The job for the kid in charge is to stop the &#8220;student&#8221; (who may be the teacher, another kid, or any handy adult) when mistakes are made.  That means the kid in charge has to do math upstairs.  The other kids can be kept on edge if the whole affair is treated like a game.  They see if they can catch mistakes.</p>
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		<title>By: Annaick</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/12/civilising-the-rug-rats/comment-page-1/#comment-239860</link>
		<dc:creator>Annaick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 17:51:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6910#comment-239860</guid>
		<description>Certainly it seems that there was a big move towards Creative Play but now, judging from the almost desperate (and rightly so) emphasis our lecturers are putting on it, I would guess that outside of Froebelian thinkers play centre and active play etc.... has taken a hit. 

As far as phonics and such things taking over, it&#039;s interesting to note that in Scandinavian countries, where literacy is of a fabulously high standard, they do not even approach teaching their kids how to write formally until they are six. Instead they focus on pre-writing /emergent writing skills and have a huge push for linguistic development. We could learn a thing or two from them....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Certainly it seems that there was a big move towards Creative Play but now, judging from the almost desperate (and rightly so) emphasis our lecturers are putting on it, I would guess that outside of Froebelian thinkers play centre and active play etc&#8230;. has taken a hit.</p>

	<p>As far as phonics and such things taking over, it&#8217;s interesting to note that in Scandinavian countries, where literacy is of a fabulously high standard, they do not even approach teaching their kids how to write formally until they are six. Instead they focus on pre-writing /emergent writing skills and have a huge push for linguistic development. We could learn a thing or two from them&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/12/civilising-the-rug-rats/comment-page-1/#comment-239807</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 14:06:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6910#comment-239807</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;and also took a ton of black and white...&lt;/i&gt;

Martin: given the build-up to this phrase, I was half expecting the next word to be &quot;pills&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>and also took a ton of black and white&#8230;</i></p>

	<p>Martin: given the build-up to this phrase, I was half expecting the next word to be &#8220;pills&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: tps12</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/12/civilising-the-rug-rats/comment-page-1/#comment-239803</link>
		<dc:creator>tps12</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 13:28:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6910#comment-239803</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;One activity I remember well from primary school was a times table game we played. It was a knock-out competition intended to help us to memorize our tables and the winner got a bar of chocolate… it was always quite fun.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

and

&lt;blockquote&gt;I had a 2nd-grade teacher who simply demanded more of us. We were learning multiplication tables by rote, and each time you memorized one you had to stand up in front of the class and recite it to get it checked off on a big board. So it was kind-of a race.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

remind me that kids can differ a &lt;b&gt;lot&lt;/b&gt; in what they find fun.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><blockquote>One activity I remember well from primary school was a times table game we played. It was a knock-out competition intended to help us to memorize our tables and the winner got a bar of chocolate&#8230; it was always quite fun.</blockquote></p>

	<p>and</p>

	<p><blockquote>I had a 2nd-grade teacher who simply demanded more of us. We were learning multiplication tables by rote, and each time you memorized one you had to stand up in front of the class and recite it to get it checked off on a big board. So it was kind-of a race.</blockquote></p>

	<p>remind me that kids can differ a <b>lot</b> in what they find fun.</p>
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