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	<title>Comments on: Rothstein and Hess on fixing schools</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/13/rothstein-and-hess-on-fixing-schools/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: bemused</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/13/rothstein-and-hess-on-fixing-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-239993</link>
		<dc:creator>bemused</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 14:11:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6909#comment-239993</guid>
		<description>In CA during better economic times a few years ago 20 children per classroom was mandated for k-1 students, and was a great advance over prior practice.  Class size is certainly not that low in grades above that level.  And paraprofessionals in the classroom are rare.  So whatever that 15.3:1 ratio means, it doesn&#039;t mean that students literally have such small classes in this state.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>In CA during better economic times a few years ago 20 children per classroom was mandated for k-1 students, and was a great advance over prior practice.  Class size is certainly not that low in grades above that level.  And paraprofessionals in the classroom are rare.  So whatever that 15.3:1 ratio means, it doesn&#8217;t mean that students literally have such small classes in this state.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve LaBonne</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/13/rothstein-and-hess-on-fixing-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-239989</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve LaBonne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 13:59:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6909#comment-239989</guid>
		<description>My comment stands. Show me the 15-student classrooms.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>My comment stands. Show me the 15-student classrooms.</p>
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		<title>By: SamChevre</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/13/rothstein-and-hess-on-fixing-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-239988</link>
		<dc:creator>SamChevre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 13:59:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The teacher-student ratios are from the first Hess essay, but I got them wrong.  

They are 25.1:1 in 1965, and 15.3:1 today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The teacher-student ratios are from the first Hess essay, but I got them wrong.</p>

	<p>They are 25.1:1 in 1965, and 15.3:1 today.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve LaBonne</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/13/rothstein-and-hess-on-fixing-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-239986</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve LaBonne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 13:44:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6909#comment-239986</guid>
		<description>Where do you get those teacher-ratio figures from? Even if confirmed, they really point to administrative bloat (which I&#039;ve already agreed is a significant factor), because you certainly don&#039;t see such ratios in classrooms. A lot of large districts have a platoon of dubiously useful desk jockeys who are still technically classified as &quot;teachers&quot;.

BCD simply says that labor-intensive fields in which large productivity gains are not possible must, in order to continue to attract workers, pay wages that track at least reasonably well with wages in the general economy whose level is driven much more by increasing productivity. It would be difficult to see how a field like education could fail to exhibit a significant degree of BCD.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Where do you get those teacher-ratio figures from? Even if confirmed, they really point to administrative bloat (which I&#8217;ve already agreed is a significant factor), because you certainly don&#8217;t see such ratios in classrooms. A lot of large districts have a platoon of dubiously useful desk jockeys who are still technically classified as &#8220;teachers&#8221;.</p>

	<p><span class="caps">BCD</span> simply says that labor-intensive fields in which large productivity gains are not possible must, in order to continue to attract workers, pay wages that track at least reasonably well with wages in the general economy whose level is driven much more by increasing productivity. It would be difficult to see how a field like education could fail to exhibit a significant degree of <span class="caps">BCD</span>.</p>
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		<title>By: Great Zamfir</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/13/rothstein-and-hess-on-fixing-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-239985</link>
		<dc:creator>Great Zamfir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 13:42:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6909#comment-239985</guid>
		<description>Is teacher:student relation really 1:8 ? Seems incredible, but I might be missing something.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Is teacher:student relation really 1:8 ? Seems incredible, but I might be missing something.</p>
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		<title>By: SamChevre</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/13/rothstein-and-hess-on-fixing-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-239982</link>
		<dc:creator>SamChevre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 13:27:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6909#comment-239982</guid>
		<description>Steve,

The corresponding teacher/student ratio change (25:1 in 1960, 8:1 today) and the increase in administrators relative to teachers (anecdotal evidence only), would make me think that Baumol&#039;s Cost Disease (hereafter, BCD for short) is a relatively small contributor.  Wouldn&#039;t BCD say that the proportion of total resources going to the sector increases as relative productivity falls; here, it&#039;s the actual resources, not the proportion, that is going up.

Harry,
Teacher salaries have gone down relative to those of doctors; stayed about constant with those of average college grads; gone up relative to those of median full-time workers.  For my purposes, the last is the key point.  (The fact that a median family can&#039;t buy a median education is problematic for a wide variety of political questions.)

I agree that the loss of a captive female workforce has hurt the school system, as has being asked to take over a large variety of functions previously done by mothers.  It seems to me, though, that the impact on the school system would be more focused on quality than on cost.  (To maintain quality would have increased cost.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Steve,</p>

	<p>The corresponding teacher/student ratio change (25:1 in 1960, 8:1 today) and the increase in administrators relative to teachers (anecdotal evidence only), would make me think that Baumol&#8217;s Cost Disease (hereafter, <span class="caps">BCD</span> for short) is a relatively small contributor.  Wouldn&#8217;t <span class="caps">BCD</span> say that the proportion of total resources going to the sector increases as relative productivity falls; here, it&#8217;s the actual resources, not the proportion, that is going up.</p>

	<p>Harry,<br />
Teacher salaries have gone down relative to those of doctors; stayed about constant with those of average college grads; gone up relative to those of median full-time workers.  For my purposes, the last is the key point.  (The fact that a median family can&#8217;t buy a median education is problematic for a wide variety of political questions.)</p>

	<p>I agree that the loss of a captive female workforce has hurt the school system, as has being asked to take over a large variety of functions previously done by mothers.  It seems to me, though, that the impact on the school system would be more focused on quality than on cost.  (To maintain quality would have increased cost.)</p>
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		<title>By: Steve LaBonne</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/13/rothstein-and-hess-on-fixing-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-239970</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve LaBonne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 12:21:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6909#comment-239970</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Tripled in constant dollars is what Rothstein said.I&#039;m aware of that. Cost disease is a phenomenon of real labor costs, not just nominal ones. You could look it up, as Yogi Berra would say.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><blockquote>Tripled in constant dollars is what Rothstein said.I&#8217;m aware of that. Cost disease is a phenomenon of real labor costs, not just nominal ones. You could look it up, as Yogi Berra would say.</blockquote></p>
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		<title>By: Great Zamfir</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/13/rothstein-and-hess-on-fixing-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-239953</link>
		<dc:creator>Great Zamfir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 07:33:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6909#comment-239953</guid>
		<description>Ooh, what I wanted to say was that advantaged kids can learn those things (history, music) at home, but  not maths or reading.

 If advantaged kids can learn anything at home that is missing in the curriculum, then it doesn&#039;t matter whether it is history or maths that is cut.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Ooh, what I wanted to say was that advantaged kids can learn those things (history, music) at home, but  not maths or reading.</p>

	<p>If advantaged kids can learn anything at home that is missing in the curriculum, then it doesn&#8217;t matter whether it is history or maths that is cut.</p>
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		<title>By: Great Zamfir</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/13/rothstein-and-hess-on-fixing-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-239952</link>
		<dc:creator>Great Zamfir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 07:30:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6909#comment-239952</guid>
		<description>In the first part, Rothstein says:
&lt;i&gt;
The trend is most notable since the enactment of NCLB, as schools have diminished attention to history, civics, the sciences, art, music, physical education, character development, and social skills, to make more instructional time available for test preparation in math and reading. This distortion of the historical breadth of American public school goals has been most pronounced for minority and other disadvantaged children. These are the children who most need a broad curriculum, as well as further gains in math and reading.[2]
&lt;/i&gt;

I don&#039;t know if I agree, but I think it is an interesting point. Implicitly, he is saying that  advantaged kids will learn these things at home, and that&#039;s probably true to some extent.

I never thought of it this way, but a focus on skills for everyone can well be recipe for class education.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>In the first part, Rothstein says:<br />
<i><br />
The trend is most notable since the enactment of <span class="caps">NCLB</span>, as schools have diminished attention to history, civics, the sciences, art, music, physical education, character development, and social skills, to make more instructional time available for test preparation in math and reading. This distortion of the historical breadth of American public school goals has been most pronounced for minority and other disadvantaged children. These are the children who most need a broad curriculum, as well as further gains in math and reading.[2]<br />
</i></p>

	<p>I don&#8217;t know if I agree, but I think it is an interesting point. Implicitly, he is saying that  advantaged kids will learn these things at home, and that&#8217;s probably true to some extent.</p>

	<p>I never thought of it this way, but a focus on skills for everyone can well be recipe for class education.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Darrell</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/13/rothstein-and-hess-on-fixing-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-239940</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Darrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 04:24:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6909#comment-239940</guid>
		<description>Does either of those guys have a veterinary medicine background?  Or you?  

There are at least two meanings to the phrase &quot;fixing schools.&quot;  My experience in business and government suggests that when people start talking about &quot;money wasted&quot; in education, they are using the vet&#039;s language on &quot;fixing schools.&quot;

[Which may give a whole new meaning to Gary Larson&#039;s cartoon of one dog talking to another excitedly, about going to the park, and then to the vet to get &quot;tutored.&quot;]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Does either of those guys have a veterinary medicine background?  Or you?</p>

	<p>There are at least two meanings to the phrase &#8220;fixing schools.&#8221;  My experience in business and government suggests that when people start talking about &#8220;money wasted&#8221; in education, they are using the vet&#8217;s language on &#8220;fixing schools.&#8221;</p>

	<p>[Which may give a whole new meaning to Gary Larson&#8217;s cartoon of one dog talking to another excitedly, about going to the park, and then to the vet to get &#8220;tutored.&#8221;]</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Darrell</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/13/rothstein-and-hess-on-fixing-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-239939</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Darrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 04:19:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6909#comment-239939</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I think the really key point (for me) is in Hess’ first essay; per-pupil spending has tripled since the early 1960’s.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

In the early 1960s gasoline was less than $0.50/gallon in most of the U.S. (it was still at $0.25/gallon in Utah by 1973).  Milk was $0.60/gallon.  Cars went for $3,000, new.

Per pupil spending has only tripled?  No wonder education is suffering.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><blockquote>I think the really key point (for me) is in Hess&#8217; first essay; per-pupil spending has tripled since the early 1960&#8217;s.</blockquote></p>

	<p>In the early 1960s gasoline was less than $0.50/gallon in most of the U.S. (it was still at $0.25/gallon in Utah by 1973).  Milk was $0.60/gallon.  Cars went for $3,000, new.</p>

	<p>Per pupil spending has only tripled?  No wonder education is suffering.</p>
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		<title>By: agm</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/13/rothstein-and-hess-on-fixing-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-239936</link>
		<dc:creator>agm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 03:35:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6909#comment-239936</guid>
		<description>billcinsd,

Tripled in &lt;i&gt;constant&lt;/i&gt; dollars is what Rothstein said.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>billcinsd,</p>

	<p>Tripled in <i>constant</i> dollars is what Rothstein said.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/13/rothstein-and-hess-on-fixing-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-239920</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 00:45:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6909#comment-239920</guid>
		<description>Harry:

&quot;one of my minor betes noir is the frequency with which NPR, when it wants a right winger to comment on an education policy issue, goes to Heritage or Cato, rather than to the AEI&quot;

Kieran:  &quot;I can’t imagine what empirical tendencies might have influenced NPR to discriminate in this sort of way.&quot;

I can. The whole d*mn neoconmen movement, and a disasterous war.  Add to that such illuminaries as Kevin &#039;Dow 36,000&#039; Haskett, Charles &#039;Bell Curve&#039; Murray, and Charle &#039;Dr. Strangelove&#039; Krauthammer&#039;.

AEI is a very dangerous and very evil brothel.  Anybody working there has nothing to complain about reputationally - and that&#039;s if they&#039;re honest.  

The last few years have certainly taught me that people who work in brothels are generally not just there to play the piano.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Harry:</p>

	<p>&#8220;one of my minor betes noir is the frequency with which <span class="caps">NPR</span>, when it wants a right winger to comment on an education policy issue, goes to Heritage or Cato, rather than to the <span class="caps">AEI</span>&#8221;</p>

	<p>Kieran:  &#8220;I can&#8217;t imagine what empirical tendencies might have influenced <span class="caps">NPR</span> to discriminate in this sort of way.&#8221;</p>

	<p>I can. The whole d*mn neoconmen movement, and a disasterous war.  Add to that such illuminaries as Kevin &#8216;Dow 36,000&#8217; Haskett, Charles &#8216;Bell Curve&#8217; Murray, and Charle &#8216;Dr. Strangelove&#8217; Krauthammer&#8217;.</p>

	<p><span class="caps">AEI</span> is a very dangerous and very evil brothel.  Anybody working there has nothing to complain about reputationally &#8211; and that&#8217;s if they&#8217;re honest.</p>

	<p>The last few years have certainly taught me that people who work in brothels are generally not just there to play the piano.</p>
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		<title>By: BillCinSD</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/13/rothstein-and-hess-on-fixing-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-239919</link>
		<dc:creator>BillCinSD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 00:44:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6909#comment-239919</guid>
		<description>and in 1960 gas cost $0.31/gallon, average new homes went for $21,500, a first class stamp went for $0.05 and a dozen eggs for $0.53 so a 3x raise in per pupil spending may not be very much</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>and in 1960 gas cost $0.31/gallon, average new homes went for $21,500, a first class stamp went for $0.05 and a dozen eggs for $0.53 so a 3x raise in per pupil spending may not be very much</p>
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		<title>By: harry b</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/13/rothstein-and-hess-on-fixing-schools/comment-page-1/#comment-239913</link>
		<dc:creator>harry b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 23:44:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6909#comment-239913</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know the answer to Steve Labonne&#039;s first question -- my guess has always been that it is a lot, but I haven&#039;t seen any good analysis of the question. Teacher salaries have fallen relative to the salaries of lawyers, doctors, etc. And higher education has continued to expand, so if that sector competes with schools for labour, that competitition has intensified. Schools are expected to do much more, and there&#039;s some reason to think that the culture in general creates more barriers to educating kids than it once did. And, as I said a couple of years ago, public education has lost a major invisible subsidy in the time period samchevre mentions:
http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/24/subsidising-publicstate-education/

This helps me figure out what Hess and Rothstein have in common.  They are both focussed on different ways in which resources are wasted in in-school interventions. Neither deny that it takes a lot of resources to do it well, but both realise that extra resources (and existing resources) can be used more, or less, effectively, and focus attention both on how resources are used sub-optimally and on how they could be used more efficiently. I think they&#039;re both often right (which is why I recommend both books), though it is difficult to convince people to adopt the needed reforms.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I don&#8217;t know the answer to Steve Labonne&#8217;s first question&#8212;my guess has always been that it is a lot, but I haven&#8217;t seen any good analysis of the question. Teacher salaries have fallen relative to the salaries of lawyers, doctors, etc. And higher education has continued to expand, so if that sector competes with schools for labour, that competitition has intensified. Schools are expected to do much more, and there&#8217;s some reason to think that the culture in general creates more barriers to educating kids than it once did. And, as I said a couple of years ago, public education has lost a major invisible subsidy in the time period samchevre mentions:<br />
<a href="http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/24/subsidising-publicstate-education/" rel="nofollow">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/05/24/subsidising-publicstate-education/</a></p>

	<p>This helps me figure out what Hess and Rothstein have in common.  They are both focussed on different ways in which resources are wasted in in-school interventions. Neither deny that it takes a lot of resources to do it well, but both realise that extra resources (and existing resources) can be used more, or less, effectively, and focus attention both on how resources are used sub-optimally and on how they could be used more efficiently. I think they&#8217;re both often right (which is why I recommend both books), though it is difficult to convince people to adopt the needed reforms.</p>
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