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	<title>Comments on: Liberalism as Pluralism</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/31/liberalism-as-pluralism/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/31/liberalism-as-pluralism/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: seth edenbaum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/31/liberalism-as-pluralism/comment-page-3/#comment-242501</link>
		<dc:creator>seth edenbaum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 02:40:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6953#comment-242501</guid>
		<description>That last lines were supposed to follow one about my love hate relationship with the academy and academicism, but that line got lost  in the shuffle. still tired</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>That last lines were supposed to follow one about my love hate relationship with the academy and academicism, but that line got lost  in the shuffle. still tired</p>
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		<title>By: Dick Mulliken</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/31/liberalism-as-pluralism/comment-page-3/#comment-242412</link>
		<dc:creator>Dick Mulliken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 20:54:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6953#comment-242412</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s interesting that thusfar we do not have the conservative perspective. My impression is that conservatives would accommodate pluralism; recognizing for example, that the dynamic tension between the clergy and secular power, or between the nobility and the king can be useful parts of a balanced society. Lberalism, on the other hand is simply a defense of liberty, freedom and individualism. Pluralism is nothing more than the unfortunate tendency of individuals to form gangs. We don&#039;t like it, but we can&#039;t avoid it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It&#8217;s interesting that thusfar we do not have the conservative perspective. My impression is that conservatives would accommodate pluralism; recognizing for example, that the dynamic tension between the clergy and secular power, or between the nobility and the king can be useful parts of a balanced society. Lberalism, on the other hand is simply a defense of liberty, freedom and individualism. Pluralism is nothing more than the unfortunate tendency of individuals to form gangs. We don&#8217;t like it, but we can&#8217;t avoid it.</p>
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		<title>By: HH</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/31/liberalism-as-pluralism/comment-page-3/#comment-242333</link>
		<dc:creator>HH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 17:22:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6953#comment-242333</guid>
		<description>&quot;I don’t see that the Internet makes it possible to do anything of value that they haven’t done.&quot;

Would you have said this about moveable type? After all, books printed by the press are no different in their content from books written in the scriptorium. Internet society can do things that are novel. E.g., this blog medium is novel. It cannot be approximated by an exchange of letters or telephone conference calls. It has enormous potential for intellectual collaboration, because it can rapidly knit together contributions from the entire world.

When something radically novel arrives, it forces an appraisal of how that thing impinges upon other things. Politics will obviously change, and so will political philosophy. Of course, one always has the option to say &quot;same as it ever was,&quot; to which I would reply, watch and learn.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;I don&#8217;t see that the Internet makes it possible to do anything of value that they haven&#8217;t done.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Would you have said this about moveable type? After all, books printed by the press are no different in their content from books written in the scriptorium. Internet society can do things that are novel. E.g., this blog medium is novel. It cannot be approximated by an exchange of letters or telephone conference calls. It has enormous potential for intellectual collaboration, because it can rapidly knit together contributions from the entire world.</p>

	<p>When something radically novel arrives, it forces an appraisal of how that thing impinges upon other things. Politics will obviously change, and so will political philosophy. Of course, one always has the option to say &#8220;same as it ever was,&#8221; to which I would reply, watch and learn.</p>
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		<title>By: Righteous Bubba</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/31/liberalism-as-pluralism/comment-page-3/#comment-242308</link>
		<dc:creator>Righteous Bubba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 16:28:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6953#comment-242308</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;For all its virtues, I don’t see that the Internet makes it possible to do anything of value that they haven’t done.&lt;/i&gt;

Consider:  2000 years ago I might have spent life bashing people over the head with a club.  I can now bash people over the head with computer equipment, thus adding a handy measure of economic value to my chosen pursuit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>For all its virtues, I don&#8217;t see that the Internet makes it possible to do anything of value that they haven&#8217;t done.</i></p>

	<p>Consider:  2000 years ago I might have spent life bashing people over the head with a club.  I can now bash people over the head with computer equipment, thus adding a handy measure of economic value to my chosen pursuit.</p>
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		<title>By: geo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/31/liberalism-as-pluralism/comment-page-3/#comment-242306</link>
		<dc:creator>geo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 16:18:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6953#comment-242306</guid>
		<description>Yikes, I completely misunderstood. I suppose I had better withdraw my ringing endorsement (#57) of hh&#039;s position. I thought he was making a pragmatist critique of theory and advocating either imaginative appeals for solidarity, as Rorty does, or empirically grounded political criticism like Chomsky&#039;s. Instead he seems to want new theories, only &quot;rigorous,&quot; &quot;novel,&quot; and &quot;engaged&quot; -- as though traditional political philosophers didn&#039;t profess to want exactly the same thing.

Ruskin, Morris, Kropotkin, Orwell, Macdonald, and Chomsky long predated the Internet. For all its virtues, I don&#039;t see that the Internet makes it possible to do anything of value that they haven&#039;t done.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Yikes, I completely misunderstood. I suppose I had better withdraw my ringing endorsement (#57) of hh&#8217;s position. I thought he was making a pragmatist critique of theory and advocating either imaginative appeals for solidarity, as Rorty does, or empirically grounded political criticism like Chomsky&#8217;s. Instead he seems to want new theories, only &#8220;rigorous,&#8221; &#8220;novel,&#8221; and &#8220;engaged&#8221;&#8212;as though traditional political philosophers didn&#8217;t profess to want exactly the same thing.</p>

	<p>Ruskin, Morris, Kropotkin, Orwell, Macdonald, and Chomsky long predated the Internet. For all its virtues, I don&#8217;t see that the Internet makes it possible to do anything of value that they haven&#8217;t done.</p>
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		<title>By: HH</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/31/liberalism-as-pluralism/comment-page-3/#comment-242239</link>
		<dc:creator>HH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 14:32:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6953#comment-242239</guid>
		<description>&quot;But this is the internet, man. You need to give us a reason.&quot;

We are really back to the future in terms of Socratic dialog, or blogalog, so we have some trouble getting started with leveling assumptions and sorting out personalities. My apologies for bad manners, but I will keep trying to make myself understood. 

I am basically pushing the view that the rise of the public Internet is a watershed event in intellectual life. Accordingly, I think a far-reaching reappraisal of political theory, political science, and political philosophy is in order. One consequence of this reappraisal will be a diminished reverence for abstract armchair political philosophy (e.g., contemplating relationships between liberalism and pluralism)  and an increased appetite for more rigorous, novel, and engaged kinds of political study. 

I think Kuhn&#039;s idea about scientific revolutions applies to schools of philosophy as well, and a blog like this one is a good place to have a productive struggle. I will do my best to keep the conflict polite.

Perhaps a good orientation point would be Manuel Castells&#039; three books on the Information Age. He lays out a lot of evidence for what I would call the &quot;Big Bang&quot; view of the Internet.

I&#039;m looking forward to a long and fruitful exchange of arguments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;But this is the internet, man. You need to give us a reason.&#8221;</p>

	<p>We are really back to the future in terms of Socratic dialog, or blogalog, so we have some trouble getting started with leveling assumptions and sorting out personalities. My apologies for bad manners, but I will keep trying to make myself understood.</p>

	<p>I am basically pushing the view that the rise of the public Internet is a watershed event in intellectual life. Accordingly, I think a far-reaching reappraisal of political theory, political science, and political philosophy is in order. One consequence of this reappraisal will be a diminished reverence for abstract armchair political philosophy (e.g., contemplating relationships between liberalism and pluralism)  and an increased appetite for more rigorous, novel, and engaged kinds of political study.</p>

	<p>I think Kuhn&#8217;s idea about scientific revolutions applies to schools of philosophy as well, and a blog like this one is a good place to have a productive struggle. I will do my best to keep the conflict polite.</p>

	<p>Perhaps a good orientation point would be Manuel Castells&#8217; three books on the Information Age. He lays out a lot of evidence for what I would call the &#8220;Big Bang&#8221; view of the Internet.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m looking forward to a long and fruitful exchange of arguments.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/31/liberalism-as-pluralism/comment-page-3/#comment-242227</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 14:12:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6953#comment-242227</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;You waltzed into a discussion without demonstrating any understanding of what people were talking about.&lt;/i&gt;

Perhaps the misunderstanding is caused by your referring to &quot;practical politics&quot; and political sort of &#039;pluralism&#039; in the post. Practical politics and academic philosophy are not well connected; naturally people start talking about different things and feel that the other group is missing the point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>You waltzed into a discussion without demonstrating any understanding of what people were talking about.</i></p>

	<p>Perhaps the misunderstanding is caused by your referring to &#8220;practical politics&#8221; and political sort of &#8216;pluralism&#8217; in the post. Practical politics and academic philosophy are not well connected; naturally people start talking about different things and feel that the other group is missing the point.</p>
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		<title>By: jholbo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/31/liberalism-as-pluralism/comment-page-3/#comment-242212</link>
		<dc:creator>jholbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 13:31:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6953#comment-242212</guid>
		<description>Oh, I&#039;m just kidding, hh. I really shouldn&#039;t be so passive-aggressive, especially after you turned all elegant on us. But the truth is: people reacted negatively to you because you didn&#039;t argue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Oh, I&#8217;m just kidding, hh. I really shouldn&#8217;t be so passive-aggressive, especially after you turned all elegant on us. But the truth is: people reacted negatively to you because you didn&#8217;t argue.</p>
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		<title>By: jholbo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/31/liberalism-as-pluralism/comment-page-3/#comment-242201</link>
		<dc:creator>jholbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 13:13:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6953#comment-242201</guid>
		<description>&quot;Credentialization and the traditional apparatus of “greats” is increasingly irrelevant because an information rich society does not need to use positional status as a guide to knowledge value.&quot;

This actually gets at the reason I assumed you were a fool, hh. You waltzed into a discussion without demonstrating any understanding of what people were talking about. (Failure to grasp even elementary distinctions between different kinds of theory: not a good start.) So far, your sole argument for the superiority of your own position consists of you labeling it superior. That is, you were - and still are? - apparently content to argue exclusively by auto-credentialization.

But this is the internet, man. You need to give us a reason.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Credentialization and the traditional apparatus of &#8220;greats&#8221; is increasingly irrelevant because an information rich society does not need to use positional status as a guide to knowledge value.&#8221;</p>

	<p>This actually gets at the reason I assumed you were a fool, hh. You waltzed into a discussion without demonstrating any understanding of what people were talking about. (Failure to grasp even elementary distinctions between different kinds of theory: not a good start.) So far, your sole argument for the superiority of your own position consists of you labeling it superior. That is, you were &#8211; and still are? &#8211; apparently content to argue exclusively by auto-credentialization.</p>

	<p>But this is the internet, man. You need to give us a reason.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/31/liberalism-as-pluralism/comment-page-3/#comment-242071</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 05:38:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6953#comment-242071</guid>
		<description>There is Hamlet, but there&#039;s no Humbert. Humbert is canvas. I remember Nabokov&#039;s description of an old pencil stub somewhere. It&#039;s two pages long, with nothing there but a description of a pencil stub found in a hotel room. Beautiful prose, but it has nothing to do with the subject of it; it&#039;s a pure stylistic exercise. And so is Lolita.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>There is Hamlet, but there&#8217;s no Humbert. Humbert is canvas. I remember Nabokov&#8217;s description of an old pencil stub somewhere. It&#8217;s two pages long, with nothing there but a description of a pencil stub found in a hotel room. Beautiful prose, but it has nothing to do with the subject of it; it&#8217;s a pure stylistic exercise. And so is Lolita.</p>
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		<title>By: seth edenbaum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/31/liberalism-as-pluralism/comment-page-3/#comment-242028</link>
		<dc:creator>seth edenbaum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 18:54:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6953#comment-242028</guid>
		<description>&quot;... steady state existence in Pynchon-space&quot;
Mostly lack of sleep. But yes I am Informally at least a student of a student of Nabokov. What can I say? After 20 years in the building trades I&#039;m drawing a pension from TIAA-CREF. 
I began earning it the day I was born.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;&#8230; steady state existence in Pynchon-space&#8221;<br />
Mostly lack of sleep. But yes I am Informally at least a student of a student of Nabokov. What can I say? After 20 years in the building trades I&#8217;m drawing a pension from <span class="caps">TIAA</span>-CREF.<br />
I began earning it the day I was born.</p>
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		<title>By: HH</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/31/liberalism-as-pluralism/comment-page-3/#comment-242021</link>
		<dc:creator>HH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 18:36:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6953#comment-242021</guid>
		<description>&quot;there is no Humbert&quot;

Whoa! You just killed off a lot of very interesting people, including:

Hamlet
Odysseus
Oliver Twist
Clayton Waxwing III
Batman
Cornelius Suttree

These people are more interesting to me than most of the individuals I have met.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;there is no Humbert&#8221;</p>

	<p>Whoa! You just killed off a lot of very interesting people, including:</p>

	<p>Hamlet<br />
Odysseus<br />
Oliver Twist<br />
Clayton Waxwing <span class="caps">III</span><br />
Batman<br />
Cornelius Suttree</p>

	<p>These people are more interesting to me than most of the individuals I have met.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/31/liberalism-as-pluralism/comment-page-3/#comment-242019</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 17:41:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6953#comment-242019</guid>
		<description>Nah. Humbert is wallowing in nothing, there is no Humbert. Nabokov&#039;s stuff is pure art, abstract painting, visual images converted to a sequence of words. The story line is coincidental, he could&#039;ve as well written about chess or butterflies, but that would&#039;ve brought much less money.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Nah. Humbert is wallowing in nothing, there is no Humbert. Nabokov&#8217;s stuff is pure art, abstract painting, visual images converted to a sequence of words. The story line is coincidental, he could&#8217;ve as well written about chess or butterflies, but that would&#8217;ve brought much less money.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: HH</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/31/liberalism-as-pluralism/comment-page-3/#comment-242012</link>
		<dc:creator>HH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 17:11:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6953#comment-242012</guid>
		<description>seth,

You have really perfected a steady state existence in Pynchon-space. Even when what you say makes zero sense, your upscale bricolage artistry is dazzling. I raise one eyebrow fractionally in tribute.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>seth,</p>

	<p>You have really perfected a steady state existence in Pynchon-space. Even when what you say makes zero sense, your upscale bricolage artistry is dazzling. I raise one eyebrow fractionally in tribute.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: seth edenbaum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/05/31/liberalism-as-pluralism/comment-page-3/#comment-242002</link>
		<dc:creator>seth edenbaum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 16:51:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6953#comment-242002</guid>
		<description>&quot;Humbert is wallowing in taboo sin and enjoying it immensely, while describing it all with playful ironic erudition.&quot;
And Nabokov is doing the same, yet another step removed.  Ironic perversity is still perversity.  Even without an intimate knowledge of Russian literary history it doesn&#039;t take long reading him to see Nabakov as the end of a line.

&quot;a dissonance shock wave.&quot;  A moment of aphasia.  Yes yes, we know (some of us at least)
I once read a defense of a preference for snapshots over &quot;serious&quot; photography based on that logic. The author was a tenured radish of the highest theoretical and moral seriousness.  But I prefer my Stendhal syndrome attacks well earned. I&#039;ve spent most of my life learning to outpace an incipient autism, maybe that&#039;s why this all is so obvious. 
The literature of synchrony, of collapsed time.  Jesu Christu.  Make the ganglia twitch. Mine eyes dazzle.
The needle Watson, I think I&#039;m gonna plotz.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Humbert is wallowing in taboo sin and enjoying it immensely, while describing it all with playful ironic erudition.&#8221;<br />
And Nabokov is doing the same, yet another step removed.  Ironic perversity is still perversity.  Even without an intimate knowledge of Russian literary history it doesn&#8217;t take long reading him to see Nabakov as the end of a line.</p>

	<p>&#8220;a dissonance shock wave.&#8221;  A moment of aphasia.  Yes yes, we know (some of us at least)<br />
I once read a defense of a preference for snapshots over &#8220;serious&#8221; photography based on that logic. The author was a tenured radish of the highest theoretical and moral seriousness.  But I prefer my Stendhal syndrome attacks well earned. I&#8217;ve spent most of my life learning to outpace an incipient autism, maybe that&#8217;s why this all is so obvious.<br />
The literature of synchrony, of collapsed time.  Jesu Christu.  Make the ganglia twitch. Mine eyes dazzle.<br />
The needle Watson, I think I&#8217;m gonna plotz.</p>
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