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	<title>Comments on: Wyndham and Kneale</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/02/wyndham-and-kneale/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/02/wyndham-and-kneale/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: johnf</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/02/wyndham-and-kneale/comment-page-2/#comment-242780</link>
		<dc:creator>johnf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jun 2008 11:29:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6960#comment-242780</guid>
		<description>Richard Jeffries through HG Wells and Olaf Stapledon to Wyndham and Nigel Kneale and going through perhaps into film-makers like Derek Jarman and writers like psychogeographers like Iain Sinclair all have apocalyptic tones but often also deep rural romanticism.

I suspect the post war lot were quite influenced by wartime neo-romanticism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Richard Jeffries through <span class="caps">HG </span>Wells and Olaf Stapledon to Wyndham and Nigel Kneale and going through perhaps into film-makers like Derek Jarman and writers like psychogeographers like Iain Sinclair all have apocalyptic tones but often also deep rural romanticism.</p>

	<p>I suspect the post war lot were quite influenced by wartime neo-romanticism.</p>
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		<title>By: pablo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/02/wyndham-and-kneale/comment-page-2/#comment-242413</link>
		<dc:creator>pablo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 20:58:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6960#comment-242413</guid>
		<description>I honestly thought Windham was a woman with a male pen name, like Tiptree.  

Trouble With Lichen is hilarious.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I honestly thought Windham was a woman with a male pen name, like Tiptree.</p>

	<p>Trouble With Lichen is hilarious.</p>
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		<title>By: pisher</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/02/wyndham-and-kneale/comment-page-2/#comment-242351</link>
		<dc:creator>pisher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 18:05:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6960#comment-242351</guid>
		<description>For sheer breadth of vision, combined with thoughtful melancholy humanism, nobody can top Olaf Stapledon.   

Last and First Men is a bit intimidating, but Odd John and Sirius remain warm and accessible.

Sirius in particular is a book no serious dog lover should miss--and by serious, I mean seriously interested in how the world might look to a dog with high-level human intelligence.

I&#039;d assume British SF/Fantasy simply reflected the dominating trends in British literary and academic life at the time.  Reflected and affected.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>For sheer breadth of vision, combined with thoughtful melancholy humanism, nobody can top Olaf Stapledon.</p>

	<p>Last and First Men is a bit intimidating, but Odd John and Sirius remain warm and accessible.</p>

	<p>Sirius in particular is a book no serious dog lover should miss&#8212;and by serious, I mean seriously interested in how the world might look to a dog with high-level human intelligence.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;d assume British SF/Fantasy simply reflected the dominating trends in British literary and academic life at the time.  Reflected and affected.</p>
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		<title>By: Nabakov</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/02/wyndham-and-kneale/comment-page-2/#comment-242338</link>
		<dc:creator>Nabakov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 17:27:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6960#comment-242338</guid>
		<description>Tis also interesting to note this amazing outpouring of enduring British fantasy/SF/metaphorical writing during the 1940s. Just a short list would include ‘The Gormenghast Trilogy’, ‘Lord of the Rings’, CS Lewis’ Ransome Trilogy and Narnia series, TH White’s ‘The Once And Future King’ and ‘1984′.

Wyndham, Kneale and co were certainly baptised in that flood tide.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Tis also interesting to note this amazing outpouring of enduring British fantasy/SF/metaphorical writing during the 1940s. Just a short list would include &#8216;The Gormenghast Trilogy&#8217;, &#8216;Lord of the Rings&#8217;, <span class="caps">CS </span>Lewis&#8217; Ransome Trilogy and Narnia series, <span class="caps">TH </span>White&#8217;s &#8216;The Once And Future King&#8217; and &#8216;1984&#8242;.</p>

	<p>Wyndham, Kneale and co were certainly baptised in that flood tide.</p>
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		<title>By: Righteous Bubba</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/02/wyndham-and-kneale/comment-page-2/#comment-242337</link>
		<dc:creator>Righteous Bubba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 17:26:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6960#comment-242337</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;“Actually, I think that British SF has been particularly attracted to apocalypse for much longer than that. ”&lt;/i&gt;

Call me crazy, but I would be interested to read speculation as to why this might be so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>&#8220;Actually, I think that British SF has been particularly attracted to apocalypse for much longer than that. &#8221;</i></p>

	<p>Call me crazy, but I would be interested to read speculation as to why this might be so.</p>
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		<title>By: Nabakov</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/02/wyndham-and-kneale/comment-page-1/#comment-242336</link>
		<dc:creator>Nabakov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 17:26:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6960#comment-242336</guid>
		<description>Tis also interesting to note this amazing outpouring of enduring British fantasy/SF?metaphorical writing during the 1940s. Just a short list would include ‘The Gormenghast Trilogy’, ‘Lord of the Rings’, CS Lewis’ Ransome Trilogy and Narnia series, TH White’s ‘The Once And Future King’ and ‘1984′.

Wyndham, Kneale and co were baptised in that river.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Tis also interesting to note this amazing outpouring of enduring British fantasy/SF?metaphorical writing during the 1940s. Just a short list would include &#8216;The Gormenghast Trilogy&#8217;, &#8216;Lord of the Rings&#8217;, <span class="caps">CS </span>Lewis&#8217; Ransome Trilogy and Narnia series, <span class="caps">TH </span>White&#8217;s &#8216;The Once And Future King&#8217; and &#8216;1984&#8242;.</p>

	<p>Wyndham, Kneale and co were baptised in that river.</p>
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		<title>By: Nabakov</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/02/wyndham-and-kneale/comment-page-1/#comment-242328</link>
		<dc:creator>Nabakov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 17:13:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6960#comment-242328</guid>
		<description>&quot;Actually, I think that British SF has been particularly attracted to apocalypse for much longer than that. &quot;

Certainly from Richard Jeffries&#039; &quot;After London&quot; onwards. A Ballardian novel nearly a hundred years before people started using phrases like &#039;Ballardian&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Actually, I think that British SF has been particularly attracted to apocalypse for much longer than that. &#8221;</p>

	<p>Certainly from Richard Jeffries&#8217; &#8220;After London&#8221; onwards. A Ballardian novel nearly a hundred years before people started using phrases like &#8216;Ballardian&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: pisher</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/02/wyndham-and-kneale/comment-page-1/#comment-242321</link>
		<dc:creator>pisher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 17:00:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6960#comment-242321</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve never read Wyndham--I&#039;ve just enjoyed all the fine adaptations of his work, including Village of the Damned (from The Midwich Cuckoos) and a lovely British TV adaptation of Chocky.  I want to read him, I just never get around to it.  I&#039;ve read Olaf Stapledon, though--now there&#039;s a British SF writer whose work NEVER gets adapted to film or TV.  

Kneale is one of my heroes, and someone who could write his own teleplays, with consummate skill.  He didn&#039;t like being called a science fiction writer--he had this idea that meant space opera, and scantily clad girls wearing space helmets, being menaced by bug-eyed monsters.  He was really writing rationalized ghost stories, influenced by the likes of M.R. James.  He didn&#039;t fit into any of the convenient little cubbyholes.  

Yes, Doctor Who ripped him off, but acceptably.  The real culprits were Yanks like Chris (The X-Files) Carter, who stole from him constantly, without so much as a doff of the cap, figuring nobody would notice.  Compare the scene from &quot;X-Files: Fight the Future&quot; where Mulder and Scully find the cornfield with a bee-filled dome in it to the scene in &quot;Quatermass 2&quot; where they find the alien dome.  It didn&#039;t begin or end there.

John Carpenter actually tried to acknowledge his debt to Kneale when he credited his screenplay for &quot;Prince of Darkness&quot; to a Martin Quatermass.  Kneale reportedly did not appreciate the joke.  He didn&#039;t like horror movies any more than he liked science fiction.  And he was never compatible with Hollywood&#039;s way of doing things.

His post-Quatermass work wasn&#039;t always as good, but sometimes it was better.  And he was uncanny at predicting trends--his &quot;The Year of the Sex Olympics&quot; basically predicts the rise of the reality gameshow.  Also mass idiocy, but I guess that didn&#039;t require much of a prophet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;ve never read Wyndham&#8212;I&#8217;ve just enjoyed all the fine adaptations of his work, including Village of the Damned (from The Midwich Cuckoos) and a lovely British TV adaptation of Chocky.  I want to read him, I just never get around to it.  I&#8217;ve read Olaf Stapledon, though&#8212;now there&#8217;s a British SF writer whose work <span class="caps">NEVER</span> gets adapted to film or TV.</p>

	<p>Kneale is one of my heroes, and someone who could write his own teleplays, with consummate skill.  He didn&#8217;t like being called a science fiction writer&#8212;he had this idea that meant space opera, and scantily clad girls wearing space helmets, being menaced by bug-eyed monsters.  He was really writing rationalized ghost stories, influenced by the likes of M.R. James.  He didn&#8217;t fit into any of the convenient little cubbyholes.</p>

	<p>Yes, Doctor Who ripped him off, but acceptably.  The real culprits were Yanks like Chris (The X-Files) Carter, who stole from him constantly, without so much as a doff of the cap, figuring nobody would notice.  Compare the scene from &#8220;X-Files: Fight the Future&#8221; where Mulder and Scully find the cornfield with a bee-filled dome in it to the scene in &#8220;Quatermass 2&#8221; where they find the alien dome.  It didn&#8217;t begin or end there.</p>

	<p>John Carpenter actually tried to acknowledge his debt to Kneale when he credited his screenplay for &#8220;Prince of Darkness&#8221; to a Martin Quatermass.  Kneale reportedly did not appreciate the joke.  He didn&#8217;t like horror movies any more than he liked science fiction.  And he was never compatible with Hollywood&#8217;s way of doing things.</p>

	<p>His post-Quatermass work wasn&#8217;t always as good, but sometimes it was better.  And he was uncanny at predicting trends&#8212;his &#8220;The Year of the Sex Olympics&#8221; basically predicts the rise of the reality gameshow.  Also mass idiocy, but I guess that didn&#8217;t require much of a prophet.</p>
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		<title>By: Nabakov</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/02/wyndham-and-kneale/comment-page-1/#comment-242318</link>
		<dc:creator>Nabakov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 16:56:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6960#comment-242318</guid>
		<description>&quot;The Trouble With Lichen is premised on the idea that only women would want to stay young forever, isn’t it?&quot;

No. It turns into a quite a sharp edged social satire when the politically, economically and media connected husbands of the women receiving the treatment start wanting it too and so are prepared to start changing laws and public opinion. Which is exactly what the female protagonist of the story had in mind all along.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;The Trouble With Lichen is premised on the idea that only women would want to stay young forever, isn&#8217;t it?&#8221;</p>

	<p>No. It turns into a quite a sharp edged social satire when the politically, economically and media connected husbands of the women receiving the treatment start wanting it too and so are prepared to start changing laws and public opinion. Which is exactly what the female protagonist of the story had in mind all along.</p>
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		<title>By: Clive</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/02/wyndham-and-kneale/comment-page-1/#comment-242268</link>
		<dc:creator>Clive</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 15:21:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6960#comment-242268</guid>
		<description>The Trouble With Lichen is premised on the idea that only women would want to stay young forever, isn&#039;t it? - ie, be obsessed with beauty. Doesn&#039;t sound very feminist to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The Trouble With Lichen is premised on the idea that only women would want to stay young forever, isn&#8217;t it? &#8211; ie, be obsessed with beauty. Doesn&#8217;t sound very feminist to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt McIrvin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/02/wyndham-and-kneale/comment-page-1/#comment-242245</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt McIrvin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 14:53:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6960#comment-242245</guid>
		<description>Actually, I think that British SF has been particularly attracted to apocalypse for much longer than that.  HG Wells smashed up the world in the first great alien-invasion novel, and wrote a melancholy end for humanity in the first great time-travel novel.  Even before that, British SF grew out of cautionary tales like &quot;The Battle of Dorking&quot;.  I&#039;ve heard speculations that late 20th century British apocalyptic SF was some sort of response to the Blitz and the loss of empire, but it seems to me that it more likely grew out of Victorian and Edwardian anxieties about holding an empire.  I&#039;d expect to see a lot of American apocalyptic/dystopian SF being written now, and in fact people often complain that modern American SF is way too depressing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Actually, I think that British SF has been particularly attracted to apocalypse for much longer than that.  <span class="caps">HG </span>Wells smashed up the world in the first great alien-invasion novel, and wrote a melancholy end for humanity in the first great time-travel novel.  Even before that, British SF grew out of cautionary tales like &#8220;The Battle of Dorking&#8221;.  I&#8217;ve heard speculations that late 20th century British apocalyptic SF was some sort of response to the Blitz and the loss of empire, but it seems to me that it more likely grew out of Victorian and Edwardian anxieties about holding an empire.  I&#8217;d expect to see a lot of American apocalyptic/dystopian SF being written now, and in fact people often complain that modern American SF is way too depressing.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob B</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/02/wyndham-and-kneale/comment-page-1/#comment-242193</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 12:53:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6960#comment-242193</guid>
		<description>Wyndham&#039;s The Day of the Triffids (1951) set off something of a subsequent fashion in English writing for what has been termed post-apocalyptic science fiction. Death of Grass, by John Christopher, in the same genre, followed shortly in 1956:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_Grass

There have been many since. Plant of the Apes (1963), by Pierre Boule, was another in the succession although it&#039;s certainly arguable that credit for starting - or reviving - the genre really belongs to Albert Camus: La Peste (The Plague), published in 1947.

The development of the genre is manifest testimony to its popular appeal but what motivates this extensive appetite for reading about the consequences of catastrophe?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Wyndham&#8217;s The Day of the Triffids (1951) set off something of a subsequent fashion in English writing for what has been termed post-apocalyptic science fiction. Death of Grass, by John Christopher, in the same genre, followed shortly in 1956:<br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_Grass" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_Grass</a></p>

	<p>There have been many since. Plant of the Apes (1963), by Pierre Boule, was another in the succession although it&#8217;s certainly arguable that credit for starting &#8211; or reviving &#8211; the genre really belongs to Albert Camus: La Peste (The Plague), published in 1947.</p>

	<p>The development of the genre is manifest testimony to its popular appeal but what motivates this extensive appetite for reading about the consequences of catastrophe?</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/02/wyndham-and-kneale/comment-page-1/#comment-242092</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 07:00:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6960#comment-242092</guid>
		<description>RW They were from New Zealand and I agree, Wyndham was giving the reader a deliberate shock in making the putative good guys even worse than the bad guys (there&#039;s a hint earlier on: even as regards the telepaths, they only care about Petra, the super-powerful little sister).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><span class="caps">RW </span>They were from New Zealand and I agree, Wyndham was giving the reader a deliberate shock in making the putative good guys even worse than the bad guys (there&#8217;s a hint earlier on: even as regards the telepaths, they only care about Petra, the super-powerful little sister).</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Weaver</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/02/wyndham-and-kneale/comment-page-1/#comment-242075</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Weaver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 05:50:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6960#comment-242075</guid>
		<description>Did anybody else find the sentiments expressed by the &quot;good guys&quot; at the end of &lt;i&gt;The Chrysalids&lt;/i&gt; as creepy as I did? All that, &quot;never mind we let those people suffocate, we&#039;re a superior species&quot; stuff?

I&#039;m not suggesting those are Wyndham&#039;s sentiments, mind. He was probably just depicting his characters in a solidly unsentimental way. &quot;Why, yes, they&#039;re technologically advanced psychics - and, also, Nazis.&quot;

From New Zealand, if memory serves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Did anybody else find the sentiments expressed by the &#8220;good guys&#8221; at the end of <i>The Chrysalids</i> as creepy as I did? All that, &#8220;never mind we let those people suffocate, we&#8217;re a superior species&#8221; stuff?</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m not suggesting those are Wyndham&#8217;s sentiments, mind. He was probably just depicting his characters in a solidly unsentimental way. &#8220;Why, yes, they&#8217;re technologically advanced psychics &#8211; and, also, Nazis.&#8221;</p>

	<p>From New Zealand, if memory serves.</p>
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		<title>By: jayann</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/02/wyndham-and-kneale/comment-page-1/#comment-241974</link>
		<dc:creator>jayann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 13:22:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6960#comment-241974</guid>
		<description>Harry B, I accept that Consider Her Ways is perhaps vaguely feminist for its time; but I don&#039;t think it&#039;s about technology, and I agree with sg that it&#039;s filled with patronising attitudes.  (I&#039;ll look at The Trouble With Lichen.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Harry B, I accept that Consider Her Ways is perhaps vaguely feminist for its time; but I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s about technology, and I agree with sg that it&#8217;s filled with patronising attitudes.  (I&#8217;ll look at The Trouble With Lichen.)</p>
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