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	<title>Comments on: Defending Rachel Carson: the last word</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/defending-rachel-carson-the-last-word/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/defending-rachel-carson-the-last-word/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: trollhattan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/defending-rachel-carson-the-last-word/comment-page-1/#comment-244120</link>
		<dc:creator>trollhattan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jun 2008 19:57:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/defending-rachel-carson-the-last-word/#comment-244120</guid>
		<description>DDT&#039;s threat is primarily from chronic rather than acute exposure. And since it&#039;s incredibly stable and persistent in the environment, chronic exposure is a very legitimate concern, especically where it is used over time.

DDT exposure routes are ingestion, transdermal and inhalation. The only IDLH number I can find is for inhalation @ 500 mg/m^3. The NIOSH exposure limit (for the workplace) is 0.5 mg/m^3.

IRIS summaries for non-carcinogenci chronic health hazard and lifetime carcinogenicity are listed here:

http://www.epa.gov/iriswebp/iris/subst/0147.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><span class="caps">DDT</span>&#8217;s threat is primarily from chronic rather than acute exposure. And since it&#8217;s incredibly stable and persistent in the environment, chronic exposure is a very legitimate concern, especically where it is used over time.</p>

	<p><span class="caps">DDT</span> exposure routes are ingestion, transdermal and inhalation. The only <span class="caps">IDLH</span> number I can find is for inhalation @ 500 mg/m<sup>3. The <span class="caps">NIOSH</span> exposure limit (for the workplace) is 0.5 mg/m</sup>3.</p>

	<p><span class="caps">IRIS</span> summaries for non-carcinogenci chronic health hazard and lifetime carcinogenicity are listed here:</p>

	<p><a href="http://www.epa.gov/iriswebp/iris/subst/0147.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.epa.gov/iriswebp/iris/subst/0147.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: R.K.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/defending-rachel-carson-the-last-word/comment-page-1/#comment-244118</link>
		<dc:creator>R.K.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jun 2008 19:25:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/defending-rachel-carson-the-last-word/#comment-244118</guid>
		<description>Very interesting point on a malaria/tobacco link. I hadn&#039;t heard that before. I like the Mooney quote.

here&#039;s another interesting recent defense of Rachel Carson:
http://www.isreview.org/issues/57/feat-rachelcarson.shtml</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Very interesting point on a malaria/tobacco link. I hadn&#8217;t heard that before. I like the Mooney quote.</p>

	<p>here&#8217;s another interesting recent defense of Rachel Carson:<br />
<a href="http://www.isreview.org/issues/57/feat-rachelcarson.shtml" rel="nofollow">http://www.isreview.org/issues/57/feat-rachelcarson.shtml</a></p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/defending-rachel-carson-the-last-word/comment-page-1/#comment-243867</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 03:33:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/defending-rachel-carson-the-last-word/#comment-243867</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve deleted a couple of OT comments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;ve deleted a couple of OT comments.</p>
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		<title>By: J F Beck</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/defending-rachel-carson-the-last-word/comment-page-1/#comment-243757</link>
		<dc:creator>J F Beck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 07:36:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/defending-rachel-carson-the-last-word/#comment-243757</guid>
		<description>Mr Waldmann,

DDT is not highly toxic to humans but is unlikely to be used on a bed net that a child or infant might suck on overnight. Just imagine the uproar.

The link below shows the potencies of the various insecticides approved for IRS - it appears that the insecticides approved for use on bed nets are also used for IRS. It is worth noting that the only insecticide on the list with a potency approaching the pyrethroids (bendiocarb) was withdrawn from the US market because of the danger it poses to children, who might lick sprayed surfaces.

http://www.who.int/whopes/Insecticides_IRS_Malaria_ok.pdf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Mr Waldmann,</p>

	<p><span class="caps">DDT</span> is not highly toxic to humans but is unlikely to be used on a bed net that a child or infant might suck on overnight. Just imagine the uproar.</p>

	<p>The link below shows the potencies of the various insecticides approved for <span class="caps">IRS </span>- it appears that the insecticides approved for use on bed nets are also used for <span class="caps">IRS</span>. It is worth noting that the only insecticide on the list with a potency approaching the pyrethroids (bendiocarb) was withdrawn from the US market because of the danger it poses to children, who might lick sprayed surfaces.</p>

	<p><a href="http://www.who.int/whopes/Insecticides_IRS_Malaria_ok.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.who.int/whopes/Insecticides_IRS_Malaria_ok.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Robert Waldmann</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/defending-rachel-carson-the-last-word/comment-page-1/#comment-243749</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Waldmann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 06:22:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/defending-rachel-carson-the-last-word/#comment-243749</guid>
		<description>Ah I see.  google scholar does seem convinced that bed nets are usually impregnated with permethrin.  Even if I search for: malaria bed-nets ddt I get comparisons of permethrin impregnated bed nets to DDT spraying.  

I don&#039;t understand.  I didn&#039;t think that DDT has genuine mammalian toxicity (I&#039;ll check).  I would guess it is the higher potency.

OK no luck with google scholar so I (blush) went to the Wikipedia.  My reading of the evidence is that it is about what one would expect for a benign chemical.   However, it seems very likely that concerns about human toxicity of DDT are a factor.  I will go on about the wiki at my blog (when blogger lets me)

Anyway I learned something here.  Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Ah I see.  google scholar does seem convinced that bed nets are usually impregnated with permethrin.  Even if I search for: malaria bed-nets ddt I get comparisons of permethrin impregnated bed nets to <span class="caps">DDT</span> spraying.</p>

	<p>I don&#8217;t understand.  I didn&#8217;t think that <span class="caps">DDT</span> has genuine mammalian toxicity (I&#8217;ll check).  I would guess it is the higher potency.</p>

	<p>OK no luck with google scholar so I (blush) went to the Wikipedia.  My reading of the evidence is that it is about what one would expect for a benign chemical.   However, it seems very likely that concerns about human toxicity of <span class="caps">DDT</span> are a factor.  I will go on about the wiki at my blog (when blogger lets me)</p>

	<p>Anyway I learned something here.  Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: J F Beck</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/defending-rachel-carson-the-last-word/comment-page-1/#comment-243670</link>
		<dc:creator>J F Beck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 13:38:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/defending-rachel-carson-the-last-word/#comment-243670</guid>
		<description>Pyrethroids are used for bednets because of their low mammalian toxicity (possible direct overnight human contact with the net) and much higher potency.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Pyrethroids are used for bednets because of their low mammalian toxicity (possible direct overnight human contact with the net) and much higher potency.</p>
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		<title>By: SG</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/defending-rachel-carson-the-last-word/comment-page-1/#comment-243660</link>
		<dc:creator>SG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 10:59:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/defending-rachel-carson-the-last-word/#comment-243660</guid>
		<description>john, isn&#039;t the preference something to do with a combination of cost-effectiveness and resistance? I think that there were some studies linked to a while ago on deltoid which showed this. 

It&#039;s funny how libertarians, while supposedly so excited by the true free market, always seem to end up supporting distorting monopolies - nuclear power, aerial spraying, big tobacco, big oil. 

It&#039;s almost as if they weren&#039;t being honest about their motives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>john, isn&#8217;t the preference something to do with a combination of cost-effectiveness and resistance? I think that there were some studies linked to a while ago on deltoid which showed this.</p>

	<p>It&#8217;s funny how libertarians, while supposedly so excited by the true free market, always seem to end up supporting distorting monopolies &#8211; nuclear power, aerial spraying, big tobacco, big oil.</p>

	<p>It&#8217;s almost as if they weren&#8217;t being honest about their motives.</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/defending-rachel-carson-the-last-word/comment-page-1/#comment-243653</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 09:22:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/defending-rachel-carson-the-last-word/#comment-243653</guid>
		<description>#9 From what I&#039;ve read, pyrethroids are generally preferred to DDT for bednets, although DDT-impregnated nets were used in WWII.

It&#039;s not clear to me exactly why pyrethroids are favoured more in this context than in relation to spraying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>#9 From what I&#8217;ve read, pyrethroids are generally preferred to <span class="caps">DDT</span> for bednets, although <span class="caps">DDT</span>-impregnated nets were used in <span class="caps">WWII</span>.</p>

	<p>It&#8217;s not clear to me exactly why pyrethroids are favoured more in this context than in relation to spraying.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Darrell</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/defending-rachel-carson-the-last-word/comment-page-1/#comment-243651</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Darrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 08:27:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/defending-rachel-carson-the-last-word/#comment-243651</guid>
		<description>Eli, comments are closed at Volokh&#039;s site. 

Comments are still open here, with one of the more bellicose of the Volokh commenters:
http://www.thechristianalert.org/index.php/2008/02/15/ddt?blog=5

Or, please, feel free to drop by my blog and leave a comment on any of the several threads about DDT and Rachel Carson.  I posted a day or so ago about the happy piece of news I had missed earlier -- Sen. Coburn released his hold on the bill to name the post office in her hometown after Rachel Carson, and the ceremony took place on May 27, in Springdale, Pennsylvania.  

Every bit of small encouragement helps -- helps me, at least.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Eli, comments are closed at Volokh&#8217;s site.</p>

	<p>Comments are still open here, with one of the more bellicose of the Volokh commenters:<br />
<a href="http://www.thechristianalert.org/index.php/2008/02/15/ddt?blog=5" rel="nofollow">http://www.thechristianalert.org/index.php/2008/02/15/ddt?blog=5</a></p>

	<p>Or, please, feel free to drop by my blog and leave a comment on any of the several threads about <span class="caps">DDT</span> and Rachel Carson.  I posted a day or so ago about the happy piece of news I had missed earlier&#8212;Sen. Coburn released his hold on the bill to name the post office in her hometown after Rachel Carson, and the ceremony took place on May 27, in Springdale, Pennsylvania.</p>

	<p>Every bit of small encouragement helps&#8212;helps me, at least.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Waldmann</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/defending-rachel-carson-the-last-word/comment-page-1/#comment-243648</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Waldmann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 08:02:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/defending-rachel-carson-the-last-word/#comment-243648</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t understand the trade off you see between DDT and bed-nets &quot;the current danger is the opposite – that pro-DDT campaigners will push for its use when alternative pesticides, or other approaches such as bed-nets, would work better.&quot;  I thought the standard approach to malaria prevention was DDT impregnated bed-nets so not one or the other but both together.

I don&#039;t see any advantage to untreated bed-nets.  The evidence that insecticide on bednets saves many lives is strong 
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/322/7281/249
 (note permethrin not DDT in that case). I don&#039;t see how suggesting to people that they put insecticide on their bed-nets could reduce their use of bed-nets.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I don&#8217;t understand the trade off you see between <span class="caps">DDT</span> and bed-nets &#8220;the current danger is the opposite &#8211; that pro-DDT campaigners will push for its use when alternative pesticides, or other approaches such as bed-nets, would work better.&#8221;  I thought the standard approach to malaria prevention was <span class="caps">DDT</span> impregnated bed-nets so not one or the other but both together.</p>

	<p>I don&#8217;t see any advantage to untreated bed-nets.  The evidence that insecticide on bednets saves many lives is strong<br />
<a href="http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/322/7281/249" rel="nofollow">http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/322/7281/249</a><br />
(note permethrin not <span class="caps">DDT</span> in that case). I don&#8217;t see how suggesting to people that they put insecticide on their bed-nets could reduce their use of bed-nets.</p>
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		<title>By: MikeJ</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/defending-rachel-carson-the-last-word/comment-page-1/#comment-243636</link>
		<dc:creator>MikeJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 00:37:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/defending-rachel-carson-the-last-word/#comment-243636</guid>
		<description>pinus, adam was simply trolling trying to move the goalposts. Next it will be, &quot;sure Rachel Carson didn&#039;t have the letters D or T in her name, but if any of her supporters did, we should obviously perform full immersion baptisms in DDT.  It&#039;s obvious.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>pinus, adam was simply trolling trying to move the goalposts. Next it will be, &#8220;sure Rachel Carson didn&#8217;t have the letters D or T in her name, but if any of her supporters did, we should obviously perform full immersion baptisms in <span class="caps">DDT</span>.  It&#8217;s obvious.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: Pinus contorta</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/defending-rachel-carson-the-last-word/comment-page-1/#comment-243632</link>
		<dc:creator>Pinus contorta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 22:57:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/defending-rachel-carson-the-last-word/#comment-243632</guid>
		<description>4: No a complete ban is not the &quot;real question&quot; because she did not advocate for one.  Rachel Carson wanted to stop the use of DDT for agricultural use not just for environmental reasons.  Indiscrimate use of DDT would lead to resistant mosquitos and make it less effective for protecting public health.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>4: No a complete ban is not the &#8220;real question&#8221; because she did not advocate for one.  Rachel Carson wanted to stop the use of <span class="caps">DDT</span> for agricultural use not just for environmental reasons.  Indiscrimate use of <span class="caps">DDT</span> would lead to resistant mosquitos and make it less effective for protecting public health.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Green</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/defending-rachel-carson-the-last-word/comment-page-1/#comment-243631</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 22:52:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/defending-rachel-carson-the-last-word/#comment-243631</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;He recognizes that humans are driving climate change but cannot reconcile what must be done with his libertarianism.&lt;/i&gt;

That&#039;s a key part of what drives global warming denialism in the US, and that&#039;s why you don&#039;t see that denialism to the same extent in the UK. Like evolution by natural selection, which is an existential threat to a certain popular variety of religious fundamentalism, global warming is an existential threat to libertarianism.

You cannot hold that minarchism is the solution to every problem, and yet believe that human-induced climate change is one of the biggest problems facing our planet. The two beliefs simply are not compatible.
Just as you cannot simultaneously believe that the Bible (or the Torah, or the Koran, etc. etc.) is the unerrant word of God, to be taken literally, and that evolution is fact.

Cognitive dissonance is a powerful thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>He recognizes that humans are driving climate change but cannot reconcile what must be done with his libertarianism.</i></p>

	<p>That&#8217;s a key part of what drives global warming denialism in the US, and that&#8217;s why you don&#8217;t see that denialism to the same extent in the UK. Like evolution by natural selection, which is an existential threat to a certain popular variety of religious fundamentalism, global warming is an existential threat to libertarianism.</p>

	<p>You cannot hold that minarchism is the solution to every problem, and yet believe that human-induced climate change is one of the biggest problems facing our planet. The two beliefs simply are not compatible.<br />
Just as you cannot simultaneously believe that the Bible (or the Torah, or the Koran, etc. etc.) is the unerrant word of God, to be taken literally, and that evolution is fact.</p>

	<p>Cognitive dissonance is a powerful thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Eli Rabett</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/defending-rachel-carson-the-last-word/comment-page-1/#comment-243624</link>
		<dc:creator>Eli Rabett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 21:26:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/defending-rachel-carson-the-last-word/#comment-243624</guid>
		<description>It would be a good thing if others joined the comments at Volokh.  Adler is no fool.  He recognizes that humans are driving climate change but cannot reconcile what must be done with his libertarianism.  He wants someone to help his unbelief.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It would be a good thing if others joined the comments at Volokh.  Adler is no fool.  He recognizes that humans are driving climate change but cannot reconcile what must be done with his libertarianism.  He wants someone to help his unbelief.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/defending-rachel-carson-the-last-word/comment-page-1/#comment-243614</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 19:26:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/defending-rachel-carson-the-last-word/#comment-243614</guid>
		<description>I suspect the real question is whether Rachel Carson or her faction advocated the complete banning of DDT.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I suspect the real question is whether Rachel Carson or her faction advocated the complete banning of <span class="caps">DDT</span>.</p>
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