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	<title>Comments on: Silenusbleg</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/silenusbleg/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: harold</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/silenusbleg/comment-page-1/#comment-243860</link>
		<dc:creator>harold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 01:17:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6988#comment-243860</guid>
		<description>Oops, too hasty. Tufts Link was a commentary not text, but still by current classical scholars.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Oops, too hasty. Tufts Link was a commentary not text, but still by current classical scholars.</p>
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		<title>By: harold</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/silenusbleg/comment-page-1/#comment-243842</link>
		<dc:creator>harold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 20:29:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6988#comment-243842</guid>
		<description>I just looked at a website that has a translation of the text of the Symposium http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text.jsp?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0090

This refers to Silenus &quot;statuettes&quot; and also a &quot;Silenus casket.&quot; 

Don&#039;t know ancient Greek, myself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I just looked at a website that has a translation of the text of the Symposium <a href="http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text.jsp?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0090" rel="nofollow">http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text.jsp?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0090</a></p>

	<p>This refers to Silenus &#8220;statuettes&#8221; and also a &#8220;Silenus casket.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Don&#8217;t know ancient Greek, myself.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon H</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/silenusbleg/comment-page-1/#comment-243841</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 20:29:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>harold wrote: &quot;A box in the shape of a grotesque Silenus (like a netsuke or snuff box) isn’t hard to imagine.&quot;

True, but then you&#039;d probably expect some to have survived, or at least to have survived long enough to have been mentioned later on.

My theory that the outer figure was disposable or destroyed in the opening was intended to account for the lack of extant examples of these items. (Although, there&#039;s still the problem of where the internal figures went, if they were better constructed or more valuable than the surrounding bust.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>harold wrote: &#8220;A box in the shape of a grotesque Silenus (like a netsuke or snuff box) isn&#8217;t hard to imagine.&#8221;</p>

	<p>True, but then you&#8217;d probably expect some to have survived, or at least to have survived long enough to have been mentioned later on.</p>

	<p>My theory that the outer figure was disposable or destroyed in the opening was intended to account for the lack of extant examples of these items. (Although, there&#8217;s still the problem of where the internal figures went, if they were better constructed or more valuable than the surrounding bust.)</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: harold</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/silenusbleg/comment-page-1/#comment-243793</link>
		<dc:creator>harold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 13:55:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6988#comment-243793</guid>
		<description>Well, I must have missed something because I never heard it described as anything but a regular box with a lid -- whether sliding or hinged or whatever. Never as a bust. A box in the shape of a grotesque Silenus (like a netsuke or snuff box) isn&#039;t hard to imagine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well, I must have missed something because I never heard it described as anything but a regular box with a lid&#8212;whether sliding or hinged or whatever. Never as a bust. A box in the shape of a grotesque Silenus (like a netsuke or snuff box) isn&#8217;t hard to imagine.</p>
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		<title>By: rea</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/silenusbleg/comment-page-1/#comment-243789</link>
		<dc:creator>rea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 13:23:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6988#comment-243789</guid>
		<description>An ancient historical mystery solved!  Alcibiades, right before the Sicilian Expedition, gets so drunk with his cronies that he can&#039;t tell the difference between busts of Silenus and the hermai scattered around Athens.  The result:  Athens loses the war!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>An ancient historical mystery solved!  Alcibiades, right before the Sicilian Expedition, gets so drunk with his cronies that he can&#8217;t tell the difference between busts of Silenus and the hermai scattered around Athens.  The result:  Athens loses the war!</p>
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		<title>By: john holbo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/silenusbleg/comment-page-1/#comment-243748</link>
		<dc:creator>john holbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 06:03:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Harold, I&#039;m not sure that the hinged box hypothesis is more likely than these others - though I grant it isn&#039;t any less likely.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Harold, I&#8217;m not sure that the hinged box hypothesis is more likely than these others &#8211; though I grant it isn&#8217;t any less likely.</p>
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		<title>By: harold</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/silenusbleg/comment-page-1/#comment-243746</link>
		<dc:creator>harold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 05:30:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6988#comment-243746</guid>
		<description>Um, is this a trick question? Wasn&#039;t it just a box, with a lid, hinged or no, rather than something that you have to crack to get open like a chocolate Easter egg with a toy ring in it? 


On a recent trip to South China, we bought a hinged fish amulet in that opened to reveal a tiny figure of Kwan Yin, the goddess of mercy, perhaps a reference to the &quot;mercy pools&quot; in Buddhist temples at which fish are let go.

&quot;Sweet are the uses of adversity, Which, like the toad, ugly and venomous, Wears yet a precious jewel in his head.&quot; --Shakespeare

Cicero thought highly of paradox as a rhetorical device, and Renaissance poets, apparently took the hint.

&quot;[The fool in literature is ] privileged to speak out, usually on behalf of a satirical view of actuality, against received opinion, convention, and social cliché, the Fool (in literature at least) was a rich source for paradoxical utter-
ance. From Socrates, who alleged that his only
knowledge was the limitation of his own knowledge,
via Saint Paul and the Pseudo-Dionysius to Nicholas of Cusa and Erasmus, docta ignorantia was attributed to the gifted fool. Alcibiades&#039; image from the Symposium, of Socrates as an ugly Silenus-box containing the sweetest perfume, was explicated by Erasmus in the Adagia, exploited in the Moriae encomium (Praise of Folly), adapted by Rabelais in the Preface to Gargantua, and referred to by a host of other paradoxists as a visual emblem of the functions of the formal paradox, evidently ugly but with a sweet truth within. Falstaff belongs in this company of wise fools, though he has none of the spirituality of Erasmus&#039; “Saint Socrates”; Lear&#039;s fool is wisely ignorant, speaks in grammatical paradoxes and touches on many paradoxical topics (nothing, shadow, folly, codpiece, world-upside-down); Lear himself is
schooled to the piercing accuracy of moral and social judgment characteristic of the highest forms of Renaissance folly.&quot; --&quot;Literary Paradox&quot; in Dictionary of the History of Ideas http://etext.virginia.edu/cgi-local/DHI/dhi.cgi?id=dv3-10</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Um, is this a trick question? Wasn&#8217;t it just a box, with a lid, hinged or no, rather than something that you have to crack to get open like a chocolate Easter egg with a toy ring in it?</p>


	<p>On a recent trip to South China, we bought a hinged fish amulet in that opened to reveal a tiny figure of Kwan Yin, the goddess of mercy, perhaps a reference to the &#8220;mercy pools&#8221; in Buddhist temples at which fish are let go.</p>

	<p>&#8220;Sweet are the uses of adversity, Which, like the toad, ugly and venomous, Wears yet a precious jewel in his head.&#8221;&#8212;Shakespeare</p>

	<p>Cicero thought highly of paradox as a rhetorical device, and Renaissance poets, apparently took the hint.</p>

	<p>&#8220;[The fool in literature is ] privileged to speak out, usually on behalf of a satirical view of actuality, against received opinion, convention, and social clich&#233;, the Fool (in literature at least) was a rich source for paradoxical utter-<br />
ance. From Socrates, who alleged that his only<br />
knowledge was the limitation of his own knowledge,<br />
via Saint Paul and the Pseudo-Dionysius to Nicholas of Cusa and Erasmus, docta ignorantia was attributed to the gifted fool. Alcibiades&#8217; image from the Symposium, of Socrates as an ugly Silenus-box containing the sweetest perfume, was explicated by Erasmus in the Adagia, exploited in the Moriae encomium (Praise of Folly), adapted by Rabelais in the Preface to Gargantua, and referred to by a host of other paradoxists as a visual emblem of the functions of the formal paradox, evidently ugly but with a sweet truth within. Falstaff belongs in this company of wise fools, though he has none of the spirituality of Erasmus&#8217; &#8220;Saint Socrates&#8221;; Lear&#8217;s fool is wisely ignorant, speaks in grammatical paradoxes and touches on many paradoxical topics (nothing, shadow, folly, codpiece, world-upside-down); Lear himself is<br />
schooled to the piercing accuracy of moral and social judgment characteristic of the highest forms of Renaissance folly.&#8221;&#8212;&#8221;Literary Paradox&#8221; in Dictionary of the History of Ideas <a href="http://etext.virginia.edu/cgi-local/DHI/dhi.cgi?id=dv3-10" rel="nofollow">http://etext.virginia.edu/cgi-local/DHI/dhi.cgi?id=dv3-10</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jon H</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/silenusbleg/comment-page-1/#comment-243726</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 23:28:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6988#comment-243726</guid>
		<description>&quot;these busts as X-Mas Crackers&quot;

Maybe they were like the first Transfomers: Dionysus In Disguise!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;these busts as X-Mas Crackers&#8221;</p>

	<p>Maybe they were like the first Transfomers: Dionysus In Disguise!</p>
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		<title>By: Benquo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/silenusbleg/comment-page-1/#comment-243672</link>
		<dc:creator>Benquo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 14:09:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6988#comment-243672</guid>
		<description>Plato probably agreed with Barnes.  It&#039;s significant that 1) Timaeus, not Socrates, narrates the cosmology in the &lt;i&gt;Timaeus&lt;/i&gt;, and 2) that it&#039;s described as a &quot;likely story,&quot; rather than certain truth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Plato probably agreed with Barnes.  It&#8217;s significant that 1) Timaeus, not Socrates, narrates the cosmology in the <i>Timaeus</i>, and 2) that it&#8217;s described as a &#8220;likely story,&#8221; rather than certain truth.</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/silenusbleg/comment-page-1/#comment-243643</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 05:00:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6988#comment-243643</guid>
		<description>A little off-topic, but I wondered if anyone had any thoughts on this statement by Jonathan Barnes from a recent LRB (paywalled), which I am utterly unqualified to assess &quot;the Timaeus is a dismal commixture of pseudo-science and cod philosophy (and it is written in disgusting Greek).&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>A little off-topic, but I wondered if anyone had any thoughts on this statement by Jonathan Barnes from a recent <span class="caps">LRB </span>(paywalled), which I am utterly unqualified to assess &#8220;the Timaeus is a dismal commixture of pseudo-science and cod philosophy (and it is written in disgusting Greek).&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: John Holbo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/silenusbleg/comment-page-1/#comment-243595</link>
		<dc:creator>John Holbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 15:36:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6988#comment-243595</guid>
		<description>Thanks for all the info. Belle and I had a good laugh over the idea of these busts as X-Mas Crackers because it would make Alcibiades speech so hilarious. &quot;At first I thought this man was crude and coarse. Now I appreciate that Socrates is like an X-Mas cracker bursting with golden divinities. Like ... a paper crown! And ... a joke that isn&#039;t funny!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thanks for all the info. Belle and I had a good laugh over the idea of these busts as X-Mas Crackers because it would make Alcibiades speech so hilarious. &#8220;At first I thought this man was crude and coarse. Now I appreciate that Socrates is like an X-Mas cracker bursting with golden divinities. Like &#8230; a paper crown! And &#8230; a joke that isn&#8217;t funny!&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: Gene O'Grady</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/silenusbleg/comment-page-1/#comment-243585</link>
		<dc:creator>Gene O'Grady</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 14:05:56 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>If they survived, and I&#039;ll take Dover&#039;s word that they don&#039;t, there probably wouldn&#039;t be a problem with opening them, given that they seem not to have been grave goods, because they&#039;d be in pieces anyhow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>If they survived, and I&#8217;ll take Dover&#8217;s word that they don&#8217;t, there probably wouldn&#8217;t be a problem with opening them, given that they seem not to have been grave goods, because they&#8217;d be in pieces anyhow.</p>
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		<title>By: richard</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/silenusbleg/comment-page-1/#comment-243584</link>
		<dc:creator>richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 13:52:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=6988#comment-243584</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;If it was the Greek equivalent of a Christmas cracker or piñata, then it would make sense for them to be rather scarce.&lt;/i&gt;

...and worst of all, if any survived they&#039;d now be too valuable to open. Sure, you might be able to x-ray them, but the likelihood is that this hasn&#039;t been done. Intriguing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>If it was the Greek equivalent of a Christmas cracker or pi&#241;ata, then it would make sense for them to be rather scarce.</i></p>

	<p>&#8230;and worst of all, if any survived they&#8217;d now be too valuable to open. Sure, you might be able to x-ray them, but the likelihood is that this hasn&#8217;t been done. Intriguing.</p>
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		<title>By: Gene O'Grady</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/silenusbleg/comment-page-1/#comment-243583</link>
		<dc:creator>Gene O'Grady</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 13:51:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Dover in his commentary on the Symposium says that it was perhaps a temporary fashion in late 5th century Athens.  No examples survive and there are no other literary references outside of late sources that are derivative of the Symposium passage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Dover in his commentary on the Symposium says that it was perhaps a temporary fashion in late 5th century Athens.  No examples survive and there are no other literary references outside of late sources that are derivative of the Symposium passage.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/14/silenusbleg/comment-page-1/#comment-243575</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 09:47:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Expensive version of a fortune cookie.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Expensive version of a fortune cookie.</p>
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