<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Marks</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/29/marks/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/29/marks/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 03:14:53 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Laura</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/29/marks/comment-page-1/#comment-244986</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 04:52:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/29/marks/#comment-244986</guid>
		<description>Those types of 1% assignments are almost always intended to make sure students prepare for their tutorials, Simon, especially when university rules forbid tying any part of the mark to attendance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Those types of 1% assignments are almost always intended to make sure students prepare for their tutorials, Simon, especially when university rules forbid tying any part of the mark to attendance.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Simon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/29/marks/comment-page-1/#comment-244876</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jul 2008 12:07:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/29/marks/#comment-244876</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve studied Philosophy (and continue to) at a number of Australian Universities and the increase in assessment is a phenomena I have personally noticed too.  A course I am taking at the moment requires five short answer responses to various questions each week.  Each response only has a value of a single percent!  On top of this, this same course has three essay items.  Quite a bit of work for a single course, on both sides of the fence.

I&#039;ve never really been offended by assessment, however, so long as there are relevant and thoughtful comments left by the teacher.  My objective is to learn so the comments is what I desire.  Pretty hard to leave good comments on hundreds of short answer responses every week though isn&#039;t it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;ve studied Philosophy (and continue to) at a number of Australian Universities and the increase in assessment is a phenomena I have personally noticed too.  A course I am taking at the moment requires five short answer responses to various questions each week.  Each response only has a value of a single percent!  On top of this, this same course has three essay items.  Quite a bit of work for a single course, on both sides of the fence.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;ve never really been offended by assessment, however, so long as there are relevant and thoughtful comments left by the teacher.  My objective is to learn so the comments is what I desire.  Pretty hard to leave good comments on hundreds of short answer responses every week though isn&#8217;t it?</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/29/marks/comment-page-1/#comment-244727</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jul 2008 10:32:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/29/marks/#comment-244727</guid>
		<description>@33, it&#039;s not. In order to disagree with the premise, you have to have a sadly idealised view of what motivates students, of their view of how they fit into the world, of what they intend to &#039;gain&#039; from attending university, and how they&#039;re all going to change the world [and perhaps levitate the Pentagon] if only they were freed from the repressive grip of The Man....

The genuine tragedy [or is it comedy?] is that some posts here seem to point in that direction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>@33, it&#8217;s not. In order to disagree with the premise, you have to have a sadly idealised view of what motivates students, of their view of how they fit into the world, of what they intend to &#8216;gain&#8217; from attending university, and how they&#8217;re all going to change the world [and perhaps levitate the Pentagon] if only they were freed from the repressive grip of The Man&#8230;.</p>

	<p>The genuine tragedy [or is it comedy?] is that some posts here seem to point in that direction.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: christine</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/29/marks/comment-page-1/#comment-244649</link>
		<dc:creator>christine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 18:20:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/29/marks/#comment-244649</guid>
		<description>“The final, probably correct, and, to my mind, most depressing explanation of marks is that, without them, the students wouldn’t do any work.”

Well, don&#039;t we all need some external motivation from time to time?  Many academics I know, who are very motivated, say they submit abstracts/papers to conferences to give them an incentive to finish their research.  How is an 18 year old deciding that they&#039;ll sign up for a class, as per tracy w at 31 so that they have an incentive to learn any different?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;The final, probably correct, and, to my mind, most depressing explanation of marks is that, without them, the students wouldn&#8217;t do any work.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Well, don&#8217;t we all need some external motivation from time to time?  Many academics I know, who are very motivated, say they submit abstracts/papers to conferences to give them an incentive to finish their research.  How is an 18 year old deciding that they&#8217;ll sign up for a class, as per tracy w at 31 so that they have an incentive to learn any different?</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: rea</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/29/marks/comment-page-1/#comment-244647</link>
		<dc:creator>rea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:19:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/29/marks/#comment-244647</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I don’t feel we are actually judged on our skill as philosophers as much as we are for our skill at exams&lt;/i&gt;

Good thing, too--otherwise, you&#039;d get a cup of hemlock instead of a diploma . . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>I don&#8217;t feel we are actually judged on our skill as philosophers as much as we are for our skill at exams</i></p>

	<p>Good thing, too&#8212;otherwise, you&#8217;d get a cup of hemlock instead of a diploma . . .</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tracy W</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/29/marks/comment-page-1/#comment-244634</link>
		<dc:creator>Tracy W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:36:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/29/marks/#comment-244634</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Oh, and to this: without them, the students wouldn’t do any work leads to the question, so what? Quite literally, what would happen? Some young people might not do any school work if they were not being graded. As a result, they might leave school. That in and of itself is not a problem. &lt;/i&gt;

Well as someone who is personally hopeless at providing internal motivation to do anything hard, it would mean I would have dropped out of school, or alternatively spent the rest of my life there, and therefore not had the interesting mass of information in my head that provides me not merely with comfortable employment, but lots to think about in my off hours. I don&#039;t know why, but unless I have a deadline I utterly avoid thinking about anything I find mentally difficult, which is extremely weird as thinking about things that I find mentally difficult is in the long run one of the most rewarding things I can do in my life, and I also know that if I don&#039;t do any hard thinking for a couple of months I get desperately bored (but not bored enough to make myself sit down and do some hard thinking). 

If there are a significant number of other people like me, in having a grave tendency to procrastinate, then unis stopping awarding grades would cause a problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Oh, and to this: without them, the students wouldn&#8217;t do any work leads to the question, so what? Quite literally, what would happen? Some young people might not do any school work if they were not being graded. As a result, they might leave school. That in and of itself is not a problem. </i></p>

	<p>Well as someone who is personally hopeless at providing internal motivation to do anything hard, it would mean I would have dropped out of school, or alternatively spent the rest of my life there, and therefore not had the interesting mass of information in my head that provides me not merely with comfortable employment, but lots to think about in my off hours. I don&#8217;t know why, but unless I have a deadline I utterly avoid thinking about anything I find mentally difficult, which is extremely weird as thinking about things that I find mentally difficult is in the long run one of the most rewarding things I can do in my life, and I also know that if I don&#8217;t do any hard thinking for a couple of months I get desperately bored (but not bored enough to make myself sit down and do some hard thinking).</p>

	<p>If there are a significant number of other people like me, in having a grave tendency to procrastinate, then unis stopping awarding grades would cause a problem.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: mpowell</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/29/marks/comment-page-1/#comment-244633</link>
		<dc:creator>mpowell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:35:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/29/marks/#comment-244633</guid>
		<description>I guess it&#039;s cheaper to only use end of term exams for grading purposes, but is it that uncommon to have multiple exams and homework assignments form part of the grade as well?  I believe that his how it normally works in the US, and it provides both useful feedback and an evaluation tool for graduate programs and employers.  In my experience, grades from a typical US college are a pretty good evaluation tool....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I guess it&#8217;s cheaper to only use end of term exams for grading purposes, but is it that uncommon to have multiple exams and homework assignments form part of the grade as well?  I believe that his how it normally works in the US, and it provides both useful feedback and an evaluation tool for graduate programs and employers.  In my experience, grades from a typical US college are a pretty good evaluation tool&#8230;.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: SamChevre</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/29/marks/comment-page-1/#comment-244631</link>
		<dc:creator>SamChevre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:12:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/29/marks/#comment-244631</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;If universities stopped giving out grades, it wouldn’t be too hard for employers to organise their own exams, and there would probably be a net cost saving.&lt;/i&gt;

This may be true in Australia, but is definitely not true in the US.

It is perfectly legal for an employer to hire only students with a 3.5 GPA or better from a top ten school.  It is illegal for an employer to give a test that isn&#039;t tied to job-specific skill and make that a condition of hiring.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>If universities stopped giving out grades, it wouldn&#8217;t be too hard for employers to organise their own exams, and there would probably be a net cost saving.</i></p>

	<p>This may be true in Australia, but is definitely not true in the US.</p>

	<p>It is perfectly legal for an employer to hire only students with a 3.5 <span class="caps">GPA</span> or better from a top ten school.  It is illegal for an employer to give a test that isn&#8217;t tied to job-specific skill and make that a condition of hiring.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Pete</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/29/marks/comment-page-1/#comment-244618</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:32:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/29/marks/#comment-244618</guid>
		<description>Don&#039;t forget that clear, fair marking works in favour of social mobility, whereas unclear or no qualification system tends to result in employers picking the same sort of person as the interviewer...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Don&#8217;t forget that clear, fair marking works in favour of social mobility, whereas unclear or no qualification system tends to result in employers picking the same sort of person as the interviewer&#8230;</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Thom Brooks</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/29/marks/comment-page-1/#comment-244614</link>
		<dc:creator>Thom Brooks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 09:27:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/29/marks/#comment-244614</guid>
		<description>I think John is (perhaps even sadly) spot on. Of course, it is not true of all students: we all have many students who would do the work because they enjoy it and see the benefit of it. (It is also always the case that there are a few who work so hard out of a love for the subject, but who sadly don&#039;t perform as well as one would have expected.) All in all, it does seem that the purpose of exams is to ensure students do some work. Evidence? Check out student attendance patterns in courses where there is an exam or alternative assessment. It can be striking.

Above a commentator notes: &quot;Funding follows school ratings, and if your students are failing, it may well be considered your fault.&quot; Well, yes and no. Ratings of a department are not determined solely by undergraduate student achievement (even if some UK league tables do take into account the percentage gaining 2:1 or above). Students can &quot;fail&quot; and a department can gain funding if the department&#039;s reputation for research is exemplary. Instead, this commentator reminds me of the ol&#039; &quot;No Child Left Behind&quot; legislation in the US where schools are punished if their scores do not improve year after year. Of course, it is the very best schools --- those schools where 95% or higher of students succeed --- that are punished most by such a system, as (a) there isn&#039;t much room for any improvement and (b) 100% is near impossible to achieve, especially in schools that cannot vet students prior to commencing studies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think John is (perhaps even sadly) spot on. Of course, it is not true of all students: we all have many students who would do the work because they enjoy it and see the benefit of it. (It is also always the case that there are a few who work so hard out of a love for the subject, but who sadly don&#8217;t perform as well as one would have expected.) All in all, it does seem that the purpose of exams is to ensure students do some work. Evidence? Check out student attendance patterns in courses where there is an exam or alternative assessment. It can be striking.</p>

	<p>Above a commentator notes: &#8220;Funding follows school ratings, and if your students are failing, it may well be considered your fault.&#8221; Well, yes and no. Ratings of a department are not determined solely by undergraduate student achievement (even if some UK league tables do take into account the percentage gaining 2:1 or above). Students can &#8220;fail&#8221; and a department can gain funding if the department&#8217;s reputation for research is exemplary. Instead, this commentator reminds me of the ol&#8217; &#8220;No Child Left Behind&#8221; legislation in the US where schools are punished if their scores do not improve year after year. Of course, it is the very best schools&#8212;- those schools where 95% or higher of students succeed&#8212;- that are punished most by such a system, as (a) there isn&#8217;t much room for any improvement and (b) 100% is near impossible to achieve, especially in schools that cannot vet students prior to commencing studies.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mike M.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/29/marks/comment-page-1/#comment-244613</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike M.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 08:47:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/29/marks/#comment-244613</guid>
		<description>&quot;The final, probably correct, and, to my mind, most depressing explanation of marks is that, without them, the students wouldn’t do any work.&quot;

Well, what about the students at schools like New College in south Florida where students don&#039;t receive grades, but instead get written evaluations, or Reed College, where grades are withheld as long as they get a C or better. As a student, I know that I&#039;d rather get evaluative feedback than a letter or number. 
(By the way, I don&#039;t got to either of those colleges, but judging from their reputations the lack of grades hasn&#039;t affected the student&#039;s work ethic.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;The final, probably correct, and, to my mind, most depressing explanation of marks is that, without them, the students wouldn&#8217;t do any work.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Well, what about the students at schools like New College in south Florida where students don&#8217;t receive grades, but instead get written evaluations, or Reed College, where grades are withheld as long as they get a C or better. As a student, I know that I&#8217;d rather get evaluative feedback than a letter or number.<br />
(By the way, I don&#8217;t got to either of those colleges, but judging from their reputations the lack of grades hasn&#8217;t affected the student&#8217;s work ethic.)</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Matthew Kuzma</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/29/marks/comment-page-1/#comment-244610</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew Kuzma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 03:04:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/29/marks/#comment-244610</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think demonstrating that employers could do without college transcripts is enough to rule out any influence from employers.  Regardless of what could be, employers do use grades and so students and colleges are under pressure to work within the current system.

Also, to the degree that you&#039;re right in saying that grades are there so students do work, I&#039;d say that ultimately that serves the colleges more than the students.  It&#039;s easy to have a class without grades; it happens in just about any opt-in teaching situation ever.  I&#039;m currently learning karate from someone and learning quite well without grades.  But the only students who attend classes of that kind are people who have their own drive and don&#039;t need extrernal motivation.  Colleges that only appeal to that market will quickly find themselves in the same financial predicament as anyone trying to sell art.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I don&#8217;t think demonstrating that employers could do without college transcripts is enough to rule out any influence from employers.  Regardless of what could be, employers do use grades and so students and colleges are under pressure to work within the current system.</p>

	<p>Also, to the degree that you&#8217;re right in saying that grades are there so students do work, I&#8217;d say that ultimately that serves the colleges more than the students.  It&#8217;s easy to have a class without grades; it happens in just about any opt-in teaching situation ever.  I&#8217;m currently learning karate from someone and learning quite well without grades.  But the only students who attend classes of that kind are people who have their own drive and don&#8217;t need extrernal motivation.  Colleges that only appeal to that market will quickly find themselves in the same financial predicament as anyone trying to sell art.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/29/marks/comment-page-1/#comment-244609</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 23:05:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/29/marks/#comment-244609</guid>
		<description>There are few in the world who attain to the teaching without words, and the advantage arising from non-action.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>There are few in the world who attain to the teaching without words, and the advantage arising from non-action.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: phil</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/29/marks/comment-page-1/#comment-244605</link>
		<dc:creator>phil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:35:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/29/marks/#comment-244605</guid>
		<description>I think Japanese Universities give grades for individual pieces of work and students have to gain enough credits to be awarded a degree. I am not sure how, or if, the degree is given an overall grade or classification. 

It seems that it is more important which university you got to, so all of the pressure is on entrance exams and then finding a job. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.aare.edu.au/05pap/das05381.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;This&lt;/a&gt; looks like an interesting article although I only started to skim it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think Japanese Universities give grades for individual pieces of work and students have to gain enough credits to be awarded a degree. I am not sure how, or if, the degree is given an overall grade or classification.</p>

	<p>It seems that it is more important which university you got to, so all of the pressure is on entrance exams and then finding a job. <a href="http://www.aare.edu.au/05pap/das05381.pdf" rel="nofollow">This</a> looks like an interesting article although I only started to skim it.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Clare</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/29/marks/comment-page-1/#comment-244604</link>
		<dc:creator>Clare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:07:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2008/06/29/marks/#comment-244604</guid>
		<description>When I objected to my own prelims and finals at Durham University, my brother commented that he didn&#039;t think it was unreasonable to expect that students who&#039;ve been attending lectures and doing readings on a subject for the past year should be able to say something intelligent about it at the end.  After many years of being a student and now a teacher, I see his point. The problem perhaps is less the exams themselves, as painful and difficult as they are (or certainly were at the time), but when, as #9 commented, the official determination of &quot;how you did&quot; is based on exams, and exams alone.  I certainly don&#039;t believe that continuous assessment is the answer -- although I thought so back when I was an undergraduate.  But appreciating that there are several ways to confirm one&#039;s understanding of a subject (oral examinations?  Dissertation/thesis?) is critical.  None is particularly pleasant or easy, of course, and I doubt that there&#039;ll be a way to gauge mastery that is ever pain-free for students.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>When I objected to my own prelims and finals at Durham University, my brother commented that he didn&#8217;t think it was unreasonable to expect that students who&#8217;ve been attending lectures and doing readings on a subject for the past year should be able to say something intelligent about it at the end.  After many years of being a student and now a teacher, I see his point. The problem perhaps is less the exams themselves, as painful and difficult as they are (or certainly were at the time), but when, as #9 commented, the official determination of &#8220;how you did&#8221; is based on exams, and exams alone.  I certainly don&#8217;t believe that continuous assessment is the answer&#8212;although I thought so back when I was an undergraduate.  But appreciating that there are several ways to confirm one&#8217;s understanding of a subject (oral examinations?  Dissertation/thesis?) is critical.  None is particularly pleasant or easy, of course, and I doubt that there&#8217;ll be a way to gauge mastery that is ever pain-free for students.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

<!-- Performance optimized by W3 Total Cache. Learn more: http://www.w3-edge.com/wordpress-plugins/

Minified using disk: basic
Page Caching using disk: enhanced

Served from: crookedtimber.org @ 2012-02-13 04:54:04 -->
