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	<title>Comments on: Anthropology and Sociology: Can&#8217;t we all just get along?</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/02/anthropology-and-sociology-cant-we-all-just-get-along/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: renae</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/02/anthropology-and-sociology-cant-we-all-just-get-along/comment-page-1/#comment-245330</link>
		<dc:creator>renae</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 13:21:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7029#comment-245330</guid>
		<description>As a young and impressionable first year Anthropology student I still remember my lecturer that year - he&#039;d crossed over from what he considered the &#039;evils&#039; of economics to live the bohemian life of the anthropology tutor (ha!) ditching the suits for the exotic Chinese collared linen shirts, more suitable for field trips in Melanesia. 

He was charismatic and charming, a true believer in the power of subjective introspection and &#039;objective&#039; observation. He taught us that the fundamental difference between sociology and anthropology was in the methodology. Anthropologists conduct &#039;field work&#039;, immersing themselves fully in the culture around them. They do this in modern cities (say for example, studying the underground punk movement in Jakarta, Indonesia) or they do this on remote islands (continuing the work on the kula trading communities perhaps). Large scale or small scale didn&#039;t matter to him it was more to do with the fact that when you live with people on a day to day level you begin to understand some things more clearly. At the same time other &#039;certainties&#039; dissolve with experience and everything changes. This in turn informs the kinds of questions that are asked and this is the sticking point. 

Sociologists have been critised for their survey method which simply asks pre-determined questions based on limited experience of the subject in question. Getting the right answers requires knowing where to start, which line of questioning to pursue. 

I personally took all this on board that year, whilst also learning a little bit about physical anthropology too. 

What never sat well with me was the obvious contradiction in the idea of &#039;participant observation&#039; a method so cherished in anthropology. Surely it is clear that to participate in something (as a subject) the lines of objectivity are blurred, impossible. I never agreed with the faux science. 

Furthermore, whilst different departments hold up these theoretical ideals the divisions eroded a long time ago - they are no longer useful to contemplate. I studied &#039;the sociology of development&#039; as a unit in anthropology, I also studied &#039;development and change&#039; as a unit in political science. The themes discussed and the assignments set were virtually indistinguishable (except of course that I probably learnt more about the structure of the World Bank organisation in political science). Both courses critiqued a linear, Western model of &#039;development&#039; and both concerned themselves with unequal power relationships in the world economy and how decisions from the top can effect  communities on the ground. I read widely from many disciplines to find the answers I sought. 

Generally, as a result of all this, I feel that the distinction really just allows people to stay in jobs. While the status quo props up careers and there&#039;s not much incentive for things to change from the inside. 

Post-colonial critiques of anthropology (often by anthropologists themselves) are also another nail in the coffin for the discipline. It&#039;s hard to continue to justify the overall tendency for the outsider anthropologist to speak on behalf of people. Those that were silenced, now speak for themselves. Did you catch the video on the rigged Mugabe elections? Case in point: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/04/zimbabwe1 as well as the resurgence of oral history/first person narrative that is accommodated so well on the web. But I digress.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>As a young and impressionable first year Anthropology student I still remember my lecturer that year &#8211; he&#8217;d crossed over from what he considered the &#8216;evils&#8217; of economics to live the bohemian life of the anthropology tutor (ha!) ditching the suits for the exotic Chinese collared linen shirts, more suitable for field trips in Melanesia.</p>

	<p>He was charismatic and charming, a true believer in the power of subjective introspection and &#8216;objective&#8217; observation. He taught us that the fundamental difference between sociology and anthropology was in the methodology. Anthropologists conduct &#8216;field work&#8217;, immersing themselves fully in the culture around them. They do this in modern cities (say for example, studying the underground punk movement in Jakarta, Indonesia) or they do this on remote islands (continuing the work on the kula trading communities perhaps). Large scale or small scale didn&#8217;t matter to him it was more to do with the fact that when you live with people on a day to day level you begin to understand some things more clearly. At the same time other &#8216;certainties&#8217; dissolve with experience and everything changes. This in turn informs the kinds of questions that are asked and this is the sticking point.</p>

	<p>Sociologists have been critised for their survey method which simply asks pre-determined questions based on limited experience of the subject in question. Getting the right answers requires knowing where to start, which line of questioning to pursue.</p>

	<p>I personally took all this on board that year, whilst also learning a little bit about physical anthropology too.</p>

	<p>What never sat well with me was the obvious contradiction in the idea of &#8216;participant observation&#8217; a method so cherished in anthropology. Surely it is clear that to participate in something (as a subject) the lines of objectivity are blurred, impossible. I never agreed with the faux science.</p>

	<p>Furthermore, whilst different departments hold up these theoretical ideals the divisions eroded a long time ago &#8211; they are no longer useful to contemplate. I studied &#8216;the sociology of development&#8217; as a unit in anthropology, I also studied &#8216;development and change&#8217; as a unit in political science. The themes discussed and the assignments set were virtually indistinguishable (except of course that I probably learnt more about the structure of the World Bank organisation in political science). Both courses critiqued a linear, Western model of &#8216;development&#8217; and both concerned themselves with unequal power relationships in the world economy and how decisions from the top can effect  communities on the ground. I read widely from many disciplines to find the answers I sought.</p>

	<p>Generally, as a result of all this, I feel that the distinction really just allows people to stay in jobs. While the status quo props up careers and there&#8217;s not much incentive for things to change from the inside.</p>

	<p>Post-colonial critiques of anthropology (often by anthropologists themselves) are also another nail in the coffin for the discipline. It&#8217;s hard to continue to justify the overall tendency for the outsider anthropologist to speak on behalf of people. Those that were silenced, now speak for themselves. Did you catch the video on the rigged Mugabe elections? Case in point: <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/04/zimbabwe1" rel="nofollow">http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/04/zimbabwe1</a> as well as the resurgence of oral history/first person narrative that is accommodated so well on the web. But I digress.</p>
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		<title>By: seth edenbaum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/02/anthropology-and-sociology-cant-we-all-just-get-along/comment-page-1/#comment-245154</link>
		<dc:creator>seth edenbaum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 15:28:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7029#comment-245154</guid>
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		<title>By: seth edenbaum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/02/anthropology-and-sociology-cant-we-all-just-get-along/comment-page-1/#comment-245153</link>
		<dc:creator>seth edenbaum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 15:28:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7029#comment-245153</guid>
		<description>Something for you to to read
&lt;a href=&quot;http://savageminds.org/category/anthropology-at-war/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;read&lt;/a&gt;.  Begin at the top.

And this &lt;a href=&quot;http://iraqht.blogspot.com/2008/04/hts-in-hindsight-newsweek-and-pogo.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Iraq&#039;s Human Terrain- HTS in Hindsight&lt;/a&gt;

And I&#039;ll top it with a link to everyone&#039;s favorite counterinsurgency blog &lt;a href=&quot;http://abumuqawama.blogspot.com/search?q=anthropology&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Abu Muqawama&lt;/a&gt;, the founder of which  spends his off hours following the adventures of &lt;a href=&quot;http://abumuqawama.blogspot.com/2008/05/thank-you-and-goodbye.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Sir Harry Paget Flashman&lt;/a&gt;. 

Here&#039;s a bit from an &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~esimpson/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;author&lt;/a&gt; at Harvard of all places who styles herself &quot;Charlie:&quot;&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;This blogger is reluctant to write-off all of academia as irrelevant, tweed-lovers. Most all of her advisors did significant government consulting work, and the academy and policy-makers were better for it. But these sad, petulant attacks from a small Ivory Tower fringe shouldn&#039;t be tolerated. They are the last refuge of ill-informed scoundrels.&lt;/blockquote&gt; Ill informed? About Iraq? 
The genius of political &quot;science.&quot;
I know this is a site where government work and intellectual activity aren&#039;t seen as contradictory by nature, but still...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Something for you to to read<br />
<a href="http://savageminds.org/category/anthropology-at-war/" rel="nofollow">read</a>.  Begin at the top.</p>

	<p>And this <a href="http://iraqht.blogspot.com/2008/04/hts-in-hindsight-newsweek-and-pogo.html" rel="nofollow">Iraq&#8217;s Human Terrain- <span class="caps">HTS</span> in Hindsight</a></p>

	<p>And I&#8217;ll top it with a link to everyone&#8217;s favorite counterinsurgency blog <a href="http://abumuqawama.blogspot.com/search?q=anthropology" rel="nofollow">Abu Muqawama</a>, the founder of which  spends his off hours following the adventures of <a href="http://abumuqawama.blogspot.com/2008/05/thank-you-and-goodbye.html" rel="nofollow">Sir Harry Paget Flashman</a>.</p>

	<p>Here&#8217;s a bit from an <a href="http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~esimpson/" rel="nofollow">author</a> at Harvard of all places who styles herself &#8220;Charlie:&#8221;<blockquote>&#8220;This blogger is reluctant to write-off all of academia as irrelevant, tweed-lovers. Most all of her advisors did significant government consulting work, and the academy and policy-makers were better for it. But these sad, petulant attacks from a small Ivory Tower fringe shouldn&#8217;t be tolerated. They are the last refuge of ill-informed scoundrels.</blockquote> Ill informed? About Iraq?<br />
The genius of political &#8220;science.&#8221;<br />
I know this is a site where government work and intellectual activity aren&#8217;t seen as contradictory by nature, but still&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/02/anthropology-and-sociology-cant-we-all-just-get-along/comment-page-1/#comment-245126</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 09:36:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7029#comment-245126</guid>
		<description>Ooh, Seth, that was sooo deep. But at a practical level, one thing that emerges from a browsing of humanities-oriented blogs, dept webpages, course outlines, etc is that there is an activist mentality amongst practitioners, even when [especially when?] that activism is clotted in the more impenetrable prose styles of [for example] poststructuralist postcolonialist anthropology. They think they&#039;re achieving something, or trying to, but I&#039;m still not sure what. And the degree of passion involved would seem to suggest that &quot;amusing and odd&quot; is not a fair summary of their conclusions about the human condition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Ooh, Seth, that was sooo deep. But at a practical level, one thing that emerges from a browsing of humanities-oriented blogs, dept webpages, course outlines, etc is that there is an activist mentality amongst practitioners, even when [especially when?] that activism is clotted in the more impenetrable prose styles of [for example] poststructuralist postcolonialist anthropology. They think they&#8217;re achieving something, or trying to, but I&#8217;m still not sure what. And the degree of passion involved would seem to suggest that &#8220;amusing and odd&#8221; is not a fair summary of their conclusions about the human condition.</p>
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		<title>By: seth edenbaum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/02/anthropology-and-sociology-cant-we-all-just-get-along/comment-page-1/#comment-245031</link>
		<dc:creator>seth edenbaum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 14:27:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7029#comment-245031</guid>
		<description>Perfect self-awareness, dave, is a an unachievable goal. But without the attempt, technical expertise fed by enthusiasm and faddishness is all we would have left.  It would get boring being a such a passive machine.

The humanities are the sum total of the observations of technical experts in one field observing the behavior of technical experts in another and finding them amusing and odd.
For myself I don&#039;t &quot;do&quot; anything, more than I have to. Mostly I just &quot;am.&quot;  I&#039;d say it give me perspective and that perspective is harder to come by than knowledge.
Again, basic stuff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Perfect self-awareness, dave, is a an unachievable goal. But without the attempt, technical expertise fed by enthusiasm and faddishness is all we would have left.  It would get boring being a such a passive machine.</p>

	<p>The humanities are the sum total of the observations of technical experts in one field observing the behavior of technical experts in another and finding them amusing and odd.<br />
For myself I don&#8217;t &#8220;do&#8221; anything, more than I have to. Mostly I just &#8220;am.&#8221;  I&#8217;d say it give me perspective and that perspective is harder to come by than knowledge.<br />
Again, basic stuff.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/02/anthropology-and-sociology-cant-we-all-just-get-along/comment-page-1/#comment-244993</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 07:49:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7029#comment-244993</guid>
		<description>@27, oh, I dunno, just seems to me that the kind of people who embrace the practices of the human sciences are the kind of people who would disagree with the statement that all is for the best in the best of all possible worlds [not being hedge fund managers, mostly], and that, therefore, THEY would assume there was something out there needing fixing. Or else, really, what IS the point?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>@27, oh, I dunno, just seems to me that the kind of people who embrace the practices of the human sciences are the kind of people who would disagree with the statement that all is for the best in the best of all possible worlds [not being hedge fund managers, mostly], and that, therefore, <span class="caps">THEY</span> would assume there was something out there needing fixing. Or else, really, what IS the point?</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/02/anthropology-and-sociology-cant-we-all-just-get-along/comment-page-1/#comment-244962</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jul 2008 21:58:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7029#comment-244962</guid>
		<description>Anthropology, like Philosophy and like that part of Computer Science dealing with machine reasoning, treats introspection as a valid research method.  I&#039;m not sure if this is true of Sociology.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Anthropology, like Philosophy and like that part of Computer Science dealing with machine reasoning, treats introspection as a valid research method.  I&#8217;m not sure if this is true of Sociology.</p>
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		<title>By: seth edenbaum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/02/anthropology-and-sociology-cant-we-all-just-get-along/comment-page-1/#comment-244948</link>
		<dc:creator>seth edenbaum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jul 2008 20:37:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7029#comment-244948</guid>
		<description>Anthropology is the study of people by people, of people by each other.
Sociology is the study of ideas -of externalities- as manifested in human behavior.
The question is whether, in the study of ourselves, it is better to avoid or to engage the moral and ethical ambiguities of interpersonal communication
A pretty basic question.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Anthropology is the study of people by people, of people by each other.<br />
Sociology is the study of ideas <del>of externalities</del> as manifested in human behavior.<br />
The question is whether, in the study of ourselves, it is better to avoid or to engage the moral and ethical ambiguities of interpersonal communication<br />
A pretty basic question.</p>
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		<title>By: giotto</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/02/anthropology-and-sociology-cant-we-all-just-get-along/comment-page-1/#comment-244946</link>
		<dc:creator>giotto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jul 2008 20:23:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7029#comment-244946</guid>
		<description>#25: The assumption here seems to be that a discipline--or a rag-tag collection of disciplines-- needs to fix something in order to be good for something.  But what, exactly, is it that you want fixed??</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>#25: The assumption here seems to be that a discipline&#8212;or a rag-tag collection of disciplines&#8212;needs to fix something in order to be good for something.  But what, exactly, is it that you want fixed??</p>
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		<title>By: Jason C. Romero</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/02/anthropology-and-sociology-cant-we-all-just-get-along/comment-page-1/#comment-244943</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason C. Romero</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jul 2008 20:03:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7029#comment-244943</guid>
		<description>If there is anything that is keeping (sociocultural) anthropology and sociology from getting along, it is sociology&#039;s failure to embrace the insights of postmodern poststructuralism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>If there is anything that is keeping (sociocultural) anthropology and sociology from getting along, it is sociology&#8217;s failure to embrace the insights of postmodern poststructuralism.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/02/anthropology-and-sociology-cant-we-all-just-get-along/comment-page-1/#comment-244939</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jul 2008 19:22:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7029#comment-244939</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s a new question: if the human sciences are good for something, what have they actually fixed?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Here&#8217;s a new question: if the human sciences are good for something, what have they actually fixed?</p>
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		<title>By: a very public sociologist</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/02/anthropology-and-sociology-cant-we-all-just-get-along/comment-page-1/#comment-244929</link>
		<dc:creator>a very public sociologist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jul 2008 18:27:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7029#comment-244929</guid>
		<description>I think the case for a formal separation between anthropology and sociology is becoming increasingly weak. In my experience, aside from &#039;the sociology of brown people&#039; argument, anthropologists working in Western societies now tend to be those who are willing to go into the field and do in-depth participant observation, ethnographies and reflexive agonising, whereas sociologists do everything else. But there&#039;s no real reason why this should be the case IMO. I&#039;m a sociologist and I do reflexivity (albeit of the Bourdieusian variety)!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think the case for a formal separation between anthropology and sociology is becoming increasingly weak. In my experience, aside from &#8216;the sociology of brown people&#8217; argument, anthropologists working in Western societies now tend to be those who are willing to go into the field and do in-depth participant observation, ethnographies and reflexive agonising, whereas sociologists do everything else. But there&#8217;s no real reason why this should be the case <span class="caps">IMO</span>. I&#8217;m a sociologist and I do reflexivity (albeit of the Bourdieusian variety)!</p>
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		<title>By: tom</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/02/anthropology-and-sociology-cant-we-all-just-get-along/comment-page-1/#comment-244916</link>
		<dc:creator>tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jul 2008 16:54:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7029#comment-244916</guid>
		<description>from my experience, the &quot;toolbox&quot; is key. an anthropologist will insist that the practice of ethnography is unique and specialized to the field.   i&#039;m not as familiar with the socilogist&#039;s technique, however i find it hard to believe that they don&#039;t apply at least some ethnographic techniques.

correct me if i&#039;m wrong, but i don&#039;t agree with the &quot;human origins&quot; (#19) point, as a significant part of anthropological study is based on the idea that &quot;culture&quot; as an abstract leaves no physical history, therefore nothing beyond the present can ever be understood.  

this is of course unique to cultural anthropology, because archaeology deals entirely with material remains.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>from my experience, the &#8220;toolbox&#8221; is key. an anthropologist will insist that the practice of ethnography is unique and specialized to the field.   i&#8217;m not as familiar with the socilogist&#8217;s technique, however i find it hard to believe that they don&#8217;t apply at least some ethnographic techniques.</p>

	<p>correct me if i&#8217;m wrong, but i don&#8217;t agree with the &#8220;human origins&#8221; (#19) point, as a significant part of anthropological study is based on the idea that &#8220;culture&#8221; as an abstract leaves no physical history, therefore nothing beyond the present can ever be understood.</p>

	<p>this is of course unique to cultural anthropology, because archaeology deals entirely with material remains.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/02/anthropology-and-sociology-cant-we-all-just-get-along/comment-page-1/#comment-244913</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jul 2008 16:25:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7029#comment-244913</guid>
		<description>20: Feature, not bug, no?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>20: Feature, not bug, no?</p>
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		<title>By: Sebastian</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/02/anthropology-and-sociology-cant-we-all-just-get-along/comment-page-1/#comment-244903</link>
		<dc:creator>Sebastian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jul 2008 15:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7029#comment-244903</guid>
		<description>As also an outsider (a &quot;positivist&quot; - in the broadest sense of the term - political scientist) I&#039;d agree with britta (#5): I think it&#039;s mainly ideology. To put it bluntly - I usually understand sociologists and can convey to them what I do with rather little trouble, which is not the case for anthro. Obviously, there are significant overlaps: Cultural sociologist that are hard to distinguish from anthropologists or (e.g.) Marxist anthropologists who could do the same work in soc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>As also an outsider (a &#8220;positivist&#8221; &#8211; in the broadest sense of the term &#8211; political scientist) I&#8217;d agree with britta (#5): I think it&#8217;s mainly ideology. To put it bluntly &#8211; I usually understand sociologists and can convey to them what I do with rather little trouble, which is not the case for anthro. Obviously, there are significant overlaps: Cultural sociologist that are hard to distinguish from anthropologists or (e.g.) Marxist anthropologists who could do the same work in soc.</p>
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