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	<title>Comments on: Moral panic in Australia</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/07/moral-panic-in-australia/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/07/moral-panic-in-australia/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Seth Edenbaum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/07/moral-panic-in-australia/comment-page-3/#comment-245672</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Edenbaum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 13:50:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7042#comment-245672</guid>
		<description>Sally Mann?  And the disturbing image is the one with a cigarette?
I&#039;m surprised no one&#039;s mentioned 
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.aperture.org/store/books-detail.aspx?ID=401&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jock Sturges&lt;/a&gt;
&lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jock_Sturges&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;more&lt;/a&gt;

And one of his underage models grew up and &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.zeitgeistfilms.com/film.php?directoryname=artforteachersofchildren&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;made a movie about it&lt;/a&gt;

Foucault was good on this subject. Most others not so much.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Sally Mann?  And the disturbing image is the one with a cigarette?<br />
I&#8217;m surprised no one&#8217;s mentioned<br />
<a href="http://www.aperture.org/store/books-detail.aspx?ID=401" rel="nofollow">Jock Sturges</a><br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jock_Sturges" rel="nofollow">more</a></p>

	<p>And one of his underage models grew up and <a href="http://www.zeitgeistfilms.com/film.php?directoryname=artforteachersofchildren" rel="nofollow">made a movie about it</a></p>

	<p>Foucault was good on this subject. Most others not so much.</p>
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		<title>By: may</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/07/moral-panic-in-australia/comment-page-3/#comment-245630</link>
		<dc:creator>may</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 02:43:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7042#comment-245630</guid>
		<description>sexuality is in the eye of the beholder?

all those little children in the religious schools covered up to ostensibly protect them from
nasty attentions.

for the rare and needed to be identified adult who sees children as prey such covering could quite possibly be seen as an inducement to their rotten pleasures?

given the actual damage done by respected members of religious institutions(among others-see recent reports of arrests for child pornogreaphy),versus the possible damage done by artistic portrayal(always an easy target)where is the call to close down places of worship?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>sexuality is in the eye of the beholder?</p>

	<p>all those little children in the religious schools covered up to ostensibly protect them from<br />
nasty attentions.</p>

	<p>for the rare and needed to be identified adult who sees children as prey such covering could quite possibly be seen as an inducement to their rotten pleasures?</p>

	<p>given the actual damage done by respected members of religious institutions(among others-see recent reports of arrests for child pornogreaphy),versus the possible damage done by artistic portrayal(always an easy target)where is the call to close down places of worship?</p>
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		<title>By: Righteous Bubba</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/07/moral-panic-in-australia/comment-page-3/#comment-245616</link>
		<dc:creator>Righteous Bubba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 23:18:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7042#comment-245616</guid>
		<description>Not related to the art world - I hope - is the cavalier treatment of child nudity in the North American nudist and naturist subculture.

Nikki Craft is a feminist activist after the Dworkin model who has done a lot of good work tracking various predators in their travels through nudist encampments.  Photography seems to be a pretty big deal for naked people who only want what&#039;s natural.

http://www.nudisthallofshame.info/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Not related to the art world &#8211; I hope &#8211; is the cavalier treatment of child nudity in the North American nudist and naturist subculture.</p>

	<p>Nikki Craft is a feminist activist after the Dworkin model who has done a lot of good work tracking various predators in their travels through nudist encampments.  Photography seems to be a pretty big deal for naked people who only want what&#8217;s natural.</p>

	<p><a href="http://www.nudisthallofshame.info/" rel="nofollow">http://www.nudisthallofshame.info/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Chris Bertram</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/07/moral-panic-in-australia/comment-page-3/#comment-245614</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Bertram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 22:17:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7042#comment-245614</guid>
		<description>#98 Yes, she featured heavily in a TV series shown by the BBC in the UK &quot;The Genius of Photography&quot;. I did find some of the pictures quite disturbing, specifically one with a young girl holding a cigarette iirc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>#98 Yes, she featured heavily in a TV series shown by the <span class="caps">BBC</span> in the <span class="caps">UK </span>&#8220;The Genius of Photography&#8221;. I did find some of the pictures quite disturbing, specifically one with a young girl holding a cigarette iirc.</p>
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		<title>By: roac</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/07/moral-panic-in-australia/comment-page-2/#comment-245612</link>
		<dc:creator>roac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 21:25:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7042#comment-245612</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m surprised nobody has mentioned (compare-and contrast) Sally Mann.  (Just Google the name and images will appear.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m surprised nobody has mentioned (compare-and contrast) Sally Mann.  (Just Google the name and images will appear.)</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/07/moral-panic-in-australia/comment-page-2/#comment-245607</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 19:12:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7042#comment-245607</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Post and discussion at Jezebel.&lt;/i&gt;

I read the first 100, what a terribly boring thread. Not a single interesting comment; 0 out of 100. Oh, well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Post and discussion at Jezebel.</i></p>

	<p>I read the first 100, what a terribly boring thread. Not a single interesting comment; 0 out of 100. Oh, well.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Bertram</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/07/moral-panic-in-australia/comment-page-2/#comment-245606</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Bertram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 18:40:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7042#comment-245606</guid>
		<description>#94 Thanks for the link smaug. Seeing the image together with the others in the series makes me think my initial take on it was a little naive. The effect of them all together is certainly creepy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>#94 Thanks for the link smaug. Seeing the image together with the others in the series makes me think my initial take on it was a little naive. The effect of them all together is certainly creepy.</p>
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		<title>By: ogmb</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/07/moral-panic-in-australia/comment-page-2/#comment-245604</link>
		<dc:creator>ogmb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 18:21:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7042#comment-245604</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Out of interest, is Nirvana’s artwork for &lt;/i&gt;Nevermind banned in Australia?

Nevermind &lt;i&gt;Nevermind&lt;/i&gt;, whay about &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_Killer&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;Virgin Killer&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/a&gt;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Out of interest, is Nirvana&#8217;s artwork for </i>Nevermind banned in Australia?</p>

	<p>Nevermind <i>Nevermind</i>, whay about <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_Killer" rel="nofollow"><i>Virgin Killer</i></a>?</p>
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		<title>By: smaug</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/07/moral-panic-in-australia/comment-page-2/#comment-245595</link>
		<dc:creator>smaug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 16:44:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7042#comment-245595</guid>
		<description>I agree with Harry B -- the picture is creepy. And the make-up on the model does give it a sexual edge -- her face does not appear like a 6-year-old&#039;s. The photo/painting of Beatrice Hatch, on which this photo/painting is based, is far different. 

But also Papapetrou &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.artistquirk.com/curiouser-and-curiouser/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;avoids nudity&lt;/a&gt; where Carroll had it in other photo/paintings. Her version of &quot;Annie and Frances Henderson (Shipwrecked)&quot; has the girls entirely clothed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I agree with Harry B&#8212;the picture is creepy. And the make-up on the model does give it a sexual edge&#8212;her face does not appear like a 6-year-old&#8217;s. The photo/painting of Beatrice Hatch, on which this photo/painting is based, is far different.</p>

	<p>But also Papapetrou <a href="http://www.artistquirk.com/curiouser-and-curiouser/" rel="nofollow">avoids nudity</a> where Carroll had it in other photo/paintings. Her version of &#8220;Annie and Frances Henderson (Shipwrecked)&#8221; has the girls entirely clothed.</p>
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		<title>By: John Meredith</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/07/moral-panic-in-australia/comment-page-2/#comment-245589</link>
		<dc:creator>John Meredith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 15:50:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7042#comment-245589</guid>
		<description>&quot;Some of us will draw between one and three sceptical conclusions from your combination of imaginative pictorial hermeneutics, Kantian worries about instrumentalization, and broad conception of privacy rights.&quot;

Well ...? Don&#039;t keep me on tenterhooks, what are the conclusions?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Some of us will draw between one and three sceptical conclusions from your combination of imaginative pictorial hermeneutics, Kantian worries about instrumentalization, and broad conception of privacy rights.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Well &#8230;? Don&#8217;t keep me on tenterhooks, what are the conclusions?</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Bertram</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/07/moral-panic-in-australia/comment-page-2/#comment-245587</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Bertram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 15:42:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7042#comment-245587</guid>
		<description>John,

Some of us will draw between one and three sceptical conclusions from your combination of imaginative pictorial hermeneutics, Kantian worries about instrumentalization, and broad conception of privacy rights.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>John,</p>

	<p>Some of us will draw between one and three sceptical conclusions from your combination of imaginative pictorial hermeneutics, Kantian worries about instrumentalization, and broad conception of privacy rights.</p>
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		<title>By: John Meredith</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/07/moral-panic-in-australia/comment-page-2/#comment-245586</link>
		<dc:creator>John Meredith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 15:38:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7042#comment-245586</guid>
		<description>Actually (yes, I know I am banging on), looking at the photograph a little more, I think it is obvious that the child is quite heavily made up (it may have something to do with the colour repro on screen, but that doesn&#039;t explain the striking difference in skin tone between face and body). The heavy rouge and dead-eyed stare is very reminiscent of child prostitutes in reportage shots, isn&#039;t it? Surely not accidental that. Again, my point is just that I cannot believe anybody thinks this is an evidently unsexual image, or that it should necessarily be banned.

I wonder if the divide here has something to do with whether or not you have daughters. If you do, you realise that six year old girls are already quite sexual beings (in a very undeveloped and naive way) and are perhaps a little less upset at the idea of the sexuality of children.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Actually (yes, I know I am banging on), looking at the photograph a little more, I think it is obvious that the child is quite heavily made up (it may have something to do with the colour repro on screen, but that doesn&#8217;t explain the striking difference in skin tone between face and body). The heavy rouge and dead-eyed stare is very reminiscent of child prostitutes in reportage shots, isn&#8217;t it? Surely not accidental that. Again, my point is just that I cannot believe anybody thinks this is an evidently unsexual image, or that it should necessarily be banned.</p>

	<p>I wonder if the divide here has something to do with whether or not you have daughters. If you do, you realise that six year old girls are already quite sexual beings (in a very undeveloped and naive way) and are perhaps a little less upset at the idea of the sexuality of children.</p>
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		<title>By: John Meredith</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/07/moral-panic-in-australia/comment-page-2/#comment-245585</link>
		<dc:creator>John Meredith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 15:29:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7042#comment-245585</guid>
		<description>One last aside, Jezebel mentions the &#039;unselfconscious nudity&#039; of children represented in the image. I agree that that is a quality of childhood that is very touching, but it is not apparent to me in the image where the pose looks artful and highly selfconscious. It is a pose that is familiar from the world of adult female nudes because it presents a completely naked form without exposing breasts or genitals. Very calendar girl.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>One last aside, Jezebel mentions the &#8216;unselfconscious nudity&#8217; of children represented in the image. I agree that that is a quality of childhood that is very touching, but it is not apparent to me in the image where the pose looks artful and highly selfconscious. It is a pose that is familiar from the world of adult female nudes because it presents a completely naked form without exposing breasts or genitals. Very calendar girl.</p>
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		<title>By: John Meredith</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/07/moral-panic-in-australia/comment-page-2/#comment-245584</link>
		<dc:creator>John Meredith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 15:22:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7042#comment-245584</guid>
		<description>The Jezebel post seems to take the line that some on here have that it is simply unthinkable that there may be a sexual element to the photograph of a naked six year old unless you are yourself depraved. But that is very disingenuous. Art historians have raged for years about the power relations between artist and model and the implicit sexuality in that, and have been busily deconstructing &#039;innocent&#039; images of nude and not-so-nude sitters for years. That there is a sexual content to this picture is strongly implied, then, by the &#039;fine art&#039; context and reinforced by the references to Lewis Carroll, who may or may not have been a paedophile (I take Chris Betram&#039;s point on that) but whose images of children have for a long time been very contentious because of their supposed sexual content. The artist knows that and we can assume the reader of the image is expected to know it too, I think. Carroll&#039;s images do not, after all, have much merit beyond their historical interest, which includes the long suspicion of sexual interest in Alice Liddell (Caroll&#039;s family may have destroyed his diary entries concerning the Lidell family for other reasons, but I wonder who would bet on it given his obvious fascination with the child). It may be acceptable to publish images like this, but let&#039;s not pretend it is innocent of sexual connotation. Of course, to a paedophile, this would be an object of straightforward sexual interest, just as the same image of a sexually mature woman would be to the rest of us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The Jezebel post seems to take the line that some on here have that it is simply unthinkable that there may be a sexual element to the photograph of a naked six year old unless you are yourself depraved. But that is very disingenuous. Art historians have raged for years about the power relations between artist and model and the implicit sexuality in that, and have been busily deconstructing &#8216;innocent&#8217; images of nude and not-so-nude sitters for years. That there is a sexual content to this picture is strongly implied, then, by the &#8216;fine art&#8217; context and reinforced by the references to Lewis Carroll, who may or may not have been a paedophile (I take Chris Betram&#8217;s point on that) but whose images of children have for a long time been very contentious because of their supposed sexual content. The artist knows that and we can assume the reader of the image is expected to know it too, I think. Carroll&#8217;s images do not, after all, have much merit beyond their historical interest, which includes the long suspicion of sexual interest in Alice Liddell (Caroll&#8217;s family may have destroyed his diary entries concerning the Lidell family for other reasons, but I wonder who would bet on it given his obvious fascination with the child). It may be acceptable to publish images like this, but let&#8217;s not pretend it is innocent of sexual connotation. Of course, to a paedophile, this would be an object of straightforward sexual interest, just as the same image of a sexually mature woman would be to the rest of us.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Bertram</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/07/moral-panic-in-australia/comment-page-2/#comment-245582</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Bertram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 15:01:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7042#comment-245582</guid>
		<description>&quot;Post and discussion&quot;:http://jezebel.com/5022999/beauty-sexuality-are-in-the-eye-of-the-beholder  at Jezebel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><a href="http://jezebel.com/5022999/beauty-sexuality-are-in-the-eye-of-the-beholder" title="">Post and discussion</a>  at Jezebel.</p>
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