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	<title>Comments on: I could be wrong</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/10/i-could-be-wrong/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Watson Aname</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/10/i-could-be-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-245818</link>
		<dc:creator>Watson Aname</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 21:13:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7047#comment-245818</guid>
		<description>Seems to me that much the same could be (has been) said of Marxism, Bob.  So there is that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Seems to me that much the same could be (has been) said of Marxism, Bob.  So there is that.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob B</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/10/i-could-be-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-245705</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 21:01:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7047#comment-245705</guid>
		<description>&quot;Keynsian theory is like Marxism: fine in theory, just doesn’t work in practice.&quot;

That&#039;s just rubbish. The claimed focus of Keynes&#039;s General Theory was this:

&quot;In particular, it is an outstanding characteristic of the economic system in which we live that, whilst it is subject to severe fluctuations in respect of output and employment, it is not violently unstable. Indeed it seems capable of remaining in a chronic condition of sub-normal activity for a considerable period without any marked tendency either towards recovery or towards complete collapse.&quot; [p.249]
http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/k/keynes/john_maynard/k44g/chapter18.html

The stagnation of Japan&#039;s economy after 1992 and the perennial price deflation there shows that the contingency Keynes was focused on hasn&#039;t gone away. His attempt at diagnosing the causes of such situations may or may not have been successful but it stimulated a debate that has continued since.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Keynsian theory is like Marxism: fine in theory, just doesn&#8217;t work in practice.&#8221;</p>

	<p>That&#8217;s just rubbish. The claimed focus of Keynes&#8217;s General Theory was this:</p>

	<p>&#8220;In particular, it is an outstanding characteristic of the economic system in which we live that, whilst it is subject to severe fluctuations in respect of output and employment, it is not violently unstable. Indeed it seems capable of remaining in a chronic condition of sub-normal activity for a considerable period without any marked tendency either towards recovery or towards complete collapse.&#8221; [p.249]<br />
<a href="http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/k/keynes/john_maynard/k44g/chapter18.html" rel="nofollow">http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/k/keynes/john_maynard/k44g/chapter18.html</a></p>

	<p>The stagnation of Japan&#8217;s economy after 1992 and the perennial price deflation there shows that the contingency Keynes was focused on hasn&#8217;t gone away. His attempt at diagnosing the causes of such situations may or may not have been successful but it stimulated a debate that has continued since.</p>
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		<title>By: stostosto</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/10/i-could-be-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-245702</link>
		<dc:creator>stostosto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 20:51:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7047#comment-245702</guid>
		<description>a: 

There are plenty of examples of countries running surpluses during expansions. Even more cases of GDP growth outpacing debt growth, thus making it less burdensome, like the graph linked in #9 shows for Britain in the early 2000s.

Of course one tricky thing is, as you may imply, to determine how long the cycle lasts in order to time your fiscal effect. Another is the politics of it. 

But it can be done and has been done.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>a:</p>

	<p>There are plenty of examples of countries running surpluses during expansions. Even more cases of <span class="caps">GDP</span> growth outpacing debt growth, thus making it less burdensome, like the graph linked in #9 shows for Britain in the early 2000s.</p>

	<p>Of course one tricky thing is, as you may imply, to determine how long the cycle lasts in order to time your fiscal effect. Another is the politics of it.</p>

	<p>But it can be done and has been done.</p>
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		<title>By: a</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/10/i-could-be-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-245698</link>
		<dc:creator>a</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 18:41:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7047#comment-245698</guid>
		<description>&quot;It’s a standard Keynesian view that budgets should not be balanced every year but over the business cycle; you run deficits during recessions and surpluses during expansions. As far as I can see the point made in the quote is that Brown failed to do the latter.&quot;

Who ever has?  Keynsian theory is like Marxism:  fine in theory, just doesn&#039;t work in practice.  There are *never* surpluses, just the political desire to have an excuse to spend more money in the bad times.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;It&#8217;s a standard Keynesian view that budgets should not be balanced every year but over the business cycle; you run deficits during recessions and surpluses during expansions. As far as I can see the point made in the quote is that Brown failed to do the latter.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Who ever has?  Keynsian theory is like Marxism:  fine in theory, just doesn&#8217;t work in practice.  There are <strong>never</strong> surpluses, just the political desire to have an excuse to spend more money in the bad times.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/10/i-could-be-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-245689</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 15:58:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7047#comment-245689</guid>
		<description>PFI/PPP is a policy introduced by the Conservative Government of 1990-1997. The Conservative Party does not, AFAIK, promise to cease using it or to buy out existing PFIs.

Tory statements regarding PFI must be evaluated with regard to their credibility in the light of these facts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><span class="caps">PFI</span>/PPP is a policy introduced by the Conservative Government of 1990-1997. The Conservative Party does not, <span class="caps">AFAIK</span>, promise to cease using it or to buy out existing PFIs.</p>

	<p>Tory statements regarding <span class="caps">PFI</span> must be evaluated with regard to their credibility in the light of these facts.</p>
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		<title>By: P O'Neill</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/10/i-could-be-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-245685</link>
		<dc:creator>P O'Neill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 14:49:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7047#comment-245685</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Did you miss the debt-funded tax cut they introduced the other month?&lt;/em&gt;

Which of course was all part of a long-planned strategy to loosen fiscal policy when times got rough :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><em>Did you miss the debt-funded tax cut they introduced the other month?</em></p>

	<p>Which of course was all part of a long-planned strategy to loosen fiscal policy when times got rough :-)</p>
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		<title>By: john b</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/10/i-could-be-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-245680</link>
		<dc:creator>john b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 14:14:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7047#comment-245680</guid>
		<description>&quot;&lt;i&gt;The debt/gdp stats do not take account of “off balance sheet” liabilities, ie PFI - a Brown disaster.&lt;/i&gt;&quot;

...and which are worth next to nothing - £30bn, or 1.5% of GDP. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.publicfinance.co.uk/features_details.cfm?News_id=32838&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;See here&lt;/a&gt;. The estimates which have it as larger are combined by idiots who don&#039;t understand accounting.

&quot;&lt;i&gt;Anyway, if the public finances are in such good shape I’m sure we’ll see the appropriate stimulative measures….er, won’t we??&lt;/i&gt;&quot;

Did you miss the debt-funded tax cut they introduced the other month?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;<i>The debt/gdp stats do not take account of &#8220;off balance sheet&#8221; liabilities, ie <span class="caps">PFI </span>- a Brown disaster.</i>&#8221;</p>

	<p>&#8230;and which are worth next to nothing &#8211; &#163;30bn, or 1.5% of <span class="caps">GDP</span>. <a href="http://www.publicfinance.co.uk/features_details.cfm?News_id=32838" rel="nofollow">See here</a>. The estimates which have it as larger are combined by idiots who don&#8217;t understand accounting.</p>

	<p>&#8220;<i>Anyway, if the public finances are in such good shape I&#8217;m sure we&#8217;ll see the appropriate stimulative measures&#8230;.er, won&#8217;t we??</i>&#8221;</p>

	<p>Did you miss the debt-funded tax cut they introduced the other month?</p>
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		<title>By: p</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/10/i-could-be-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-245670</link>
		<dc:creator>p</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 13:48:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7047#comment-245670</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;em&gt;the sentence I drew attention to claims that Brown should have run a substantial budget surplus (which is not a balanced budget).&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Now this is just silly.  Nobody thinks that budgets should balance &lt;em&gt;in a single year&lt;/em&gt;.  Gordon Brown&#039;s own &quot;golden rule&quot; is to balance the budget &lt;em&gt;over the cycle&lt;/em&gt;[1].  This means running surpluses in good years to pay for deficits in bad years.  The comment you&#039;ve excerpted from is a jab at Brown for bending and breaking his own rules, overspending in good years so that there now is little room left over to stimulate the economy when it needs it in bad years.  I&#039;m sorry, but you just haven&#039;t found the inconsistency that you thought you had.

And, on taxes, here&#039;s from &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.economist.com/world/britain/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10609199&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the Economist in January&lt;/a&gt;:
&lt;blockquote&gt;If the fiscal rules mean anything, Mr Darling should swallow the bitter pill prescribed by the IFS and announce tax rises worth £8 billion a year in his first budget, on March 12th, to take effect in 2009-10. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Hardly a recommendation from the Economist on higher taxes, but it does nothing to support your &quot;inconsistent Economist&quot; line.

[1] Specifically, to borrow only to invest, over the course of the economic cycle.  &quot;Invest&quot; in the true sense, that is, not as in &quot;all public spending is investment&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><blockquote><em>the sentence I drew attention to claims that Brown should have run a substantial budget surplus (which is not a balanced budget).</em></blockquote></p>

	<p>Now this is just silly.  Nobody thinks that budgets should balance <em>in a single year</em>.  Gordon Brown&#8217;s own &#8220;golden rule&#8221; is to balance the budget <em>over the cycle</em>[1].  This means running surpluses in good years to pay for deficits in bad years.  The comment you&#8217;ve excerpted from is a jab at Brown for bending and breaking his own rules, overspending in good years so that there now is little room left over to stimulate the economy when it needs it in bad years.  I&#8217;m sorry, but you just haven&#8217;t found the inconsistency that you thought you had.</p>

	<p>And, on taxes, here&#8217;s from <a href="http://www.economist.com/world/britain/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10609199" rel="nofollow">the Economist in January</a>:<br />
<blockquote>If the fiscal rules mean anything, Mr Darling should swallow the bitter pill prescribed by the <span class="caps">IFS</span> and announce tax rises worth &#163;8 billion a year in his first budget, on March 12th, to take effect in 2009-10. </blockquote></p>

	<p>Hardly a recommendation from the Economist on higher taxes, but it does nothing to support your &#8220;inconsistent Economist&#8221; line.</p>

	<p>[1] Specifically, to borrow only to invest, over the course of the economic cycle.  &#8220;Invest&#8221; in the true sense, that is, not as in &#8220;all public spending is investment&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: cjcjc</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/10/i-could-be-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-245669</link>
		<dc:creator>cjcjc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 13:48:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7047#comment-245669</guid>
		<description>The debt/gdp stats do not take account of &quot;off balance sheet&quot; liabilities, ie PFI - a Brown disaster.
Nor do they take account of unfunded liabilities such a public sector pensions, which have of course risen dramatically over the past 10 years (along with those of the private sector) along with expected longevity.

Anyway, if the public finances are in such good shape I&#039;m sure we&#039;ll see the appropriate stimulative measures....er, won&#039;t we??</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The debt/gdp stats do not take account of &#8220;off balance sheet&#8221; liabilities, ie <span class="caps">PFI </span>- a Brown disaster.<br />
Nor do they take account of unfunded liabilities such a public sector pensions, which have of course risen dramatically over the past 10 years (along with those of the private sector) along with expected longevity.</p>

	<p>Anyway, if the public finances are in such good shape I&#8217;m sure we&#8217;ll see the appropriate stimulative measures&#8230;.er, won&#8217;t we??</p>
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		<title>By: john b</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/10/i-could-be-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-245665</link>
		<dc:creator>john b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:58:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7047#comment-245665</guid>
		<description>Sssh, Stuart - don&#039;t complicate matters with facts. 

We *know* from the media [*] that ZaNu Liebour has destroyed the public finances; mentioning the fact that they&#039;re actually in pretty good shape is simply beyond the pale.

(the same rules also apply to crime; the wider economy; education; and healthcare)

[*] yes, the left-biased media [fx: dies laughing]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Sssh, Stuart &#8211; don&#8217;t complicate matters with facts.</p>

	<p>We <strong>know</strong> from the media [*] that ZaNu Liebour has destroyed the public finances; mentioning the fact that they&#8217;re actually in pretty good shape is simply beyond the pale.</p>

	<p>(the same rules also apply to crime; the wider economy; education; and healthcare)</p>

	<p>[*] yes, the left-biased media [fx: dies laughing]</p>
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		<title>By: harry b</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/10/i-could-be-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-245664</link>
		<dc:creator>harry b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:33:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7047#comment-245664</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been reading the Economist throughout the period, but this is immpressionistic. My impression: they were opposed throughout the period to substantial increases in funding without substantial reform (in particular for the NHS). But they seemed, fairly consistently, to recognise that the NHS is underfunded (they buy into a caricature of the Hanushek thesis for schools, so never seem to think education is underfunded). I don&#039;t have any sense of them opposing substantial personal income taxes, either, though they are very hostile to taxes on corporations and payroll taxes. So, I&#039;d say the Economist is not being as inconsistent as you suspect. They have certainly, though, never called for higher taxes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;ve been reading the Economist throughout the period, but this is immpressionistic. My impression: they were opposed throughout the period to substantial increases in funding without substantial reform (in particular for the <span class="caps">NHS</span>). But they seemed, fairly consistently, to recognise that the <span class="caps">NHS</span> is underfunded (they buy into a caricature of the Hanushek thesis for schools, so never seem to think education is underfunded). I don&#8217;t have any sense of them opposing substantial personal income taxes, either, though they are very hostile to taxes on corporations and payroll taxes. So, I&#8217;d say the Economist is not being as inconsistent as you suspect. They have certainly, though, never called for higher taxes.</p>
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		<title>By: stuart</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/10/i-could-be-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-245663</link>
		<dc:creator>stuart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:31:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7047#comment-245663</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;The UK has a public debt, right? “Fattening public finances” amounts to paying down that debt. Which Brown, presumably, didn’t do when he had the opportunity.&lt;/i&gt;

When Brown became chancellor the UK national debt was around 43% of GDP, he got it down to just around 31% of GDP by 2002 and it has risen back about halfway since then (to around 37%).

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=206&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;source&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>The UK has a public debt, right? &#8220;Fattening public finances&#8221; amounts to paying down that debt. Which Brown, presumably, didn&#8217;t do when he had the opportunity.</i></p>

	<p>When Brown became chancellor the UK national debt was around 43% of <span class="caps">GDP</span>, he got it down to just around 31% of <span class="caps">GDP</span> by 2002 and it has risen back about halfway since then (to around 37%).</p>

	<p><a href="http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=206" rel="nofollow">source</a></p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/10/i-could-be-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-245659</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:55:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7047#comment-245659</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve never heard the word &quot;fatten&quot; applied to public finances. I sense connotations of the Joseph and Pharaoh story, or, perhaps a slight hint to some ancient sacrifice ritual.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;ve never heard the word &#8220;fatten&#8221; applied to public finances. I sense connotations of the Joseph and Pharaoh story, or, perhaps a slight hint to some ancient sacrifice ritual.</p>
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		<title>By: stostosto</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/10/i-could-be-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-245655</link>
		<dc:creator>stostosto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:42:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7047#comment-245655</guid>
		<description>The UK has a public debt, right? &quot;Fattening public finances&quot; amounts to paying down that debt. Which Brown, presumably, didn&#039;t do when he had the opportunity. 

This, btw, could logically have been done in the form of raising taxes as well as cutting public expeniture. 

It&#039;s a standard Keynesian view that budgets should not be balanced every year but over the business cycle; you run deficits during recessions and surpluses during expansions. As far as I can see the point made in the quote is that Brown failed to do the latter. 

You can argue, as you do, that Brown&#039;s fiscal policies during the expansion wasn&#039;t imprudent because they went towards investing. 

The Economist people, obviously, argue many things which are not always consistent, but they&#039;re no stranger to the idea that public investment is different from current expenditure. Indeed, I have seen them argue that there ought to be a public sector balance sheet keeping accounts of public sector assets (like buildings, infrastructure etc.) as well as liabilities. 

One advantage would be better management of these assets, i.e. an explicit accounting of depreciation of public capital stock which would -- ideally -- induce policy makers to set aside means for maintenance on a current basis. 

This is a different argument from the &quot;balance the budget over the business cycle&quot; argument, but it pertains to how a budget deficit might be defined.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The UK has a public debt, right? &#8220;Fattening public finances&#8221; amounts to paying down that debt. Which Brown, presumably, didn&#8217;t do when he had the opportunity.</p>

	<p>This, btw, could logically have been done in the form of raising taxes as well as cutting public expeniture.</p>

	<p>It&#8217;s a standard Keynesian view that budgets should not be balanced every year but over the business cycle; you run deficits during recessions and surpluses during expansions. As far as I can see the point made in the quote is that Brown failed to do the latter.</p>

	<p>You can argue, as you do, that Brown&#8217;s fiscal policies during the expansion wasn&#8217;t imprudent because they went towards investing.</p>

	<p>The Economist people, obviously, argue many things which are not always consistent, but they&#8217;re no stranger to the idea that public investment is different from current expenditure. Indeed, I have seen them argue that there ought to be a public sector balance sheet keeping accounts of public sector assets (like buildings, infrastructure etc.) as well as liabilities.</p>

	<p>One advantage would be better management of these assets, i.e. an explicit accounting of depreciation of public capital stock which would&#8212;ideally&#8212;induce policy makers to set aside means for maintenance on a current basis.</p>

	<p>This is a different argument from the &#8220;balance the budget over the business cycle&#8221; argument, but it pertains to how a budget deficit might be defined.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Cuttance</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/10/i-could-be-wrong/comment-page-1/#comment-245654</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Cuttance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:20:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7047#comment-245654</guid>
		<description>good commentary by all. That economist quote rang a subconscious warning bell and I&#039;m glad I&#039;ve been shown why.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>good commentary by all. That economist quote rang a subconscious warning bell and I&#8217;m glad I&#8217;ve been shown why.</p>
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