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	<title>Comments on: Norm Enforcement is Hard, But People Do It Anyway</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/18/norm-enforcement-is-hard-but-people-do-it-anyway/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/18/norm-enforcement-is-hard-but-people-do-it-anyway/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/18/norm-enforcement-is-hard-but-people-do-it-anyway/comment-page-4/#comment-247064</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 06:29:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7067#comment-247064</guid>
		<description>Where did I say anything about any rebels? It has nothing to do with any rebels and everything to do with circumstances. 

Now look, the guy was already in the Apple store. 
It probably was John Holbo who came to replace his hallucinating USB port. 
He gets in thru some other entrance, tech-support entrance. 
He replaces the USB port and he walk in to the store. 
He sees the queue, he realizes it&#039;s that day when crazies line up for the new iphone.  
He thinks it would be cool to get one now, today - what a story to tell in the university canteen. 
He gets in line - the part of the line that&#039;s inside the store - because he is already inside the store! 
Yes, technically it&#039;s cutting in, but is this really so terrible?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Where did I say anything about any rebels? It has nothing to do with any rebels and everything to do with circumstances.</p>

	<p>Now look, the guy was already in the Apple store.<br />
It probably was John Holbo who came to replace his hallucinating <span class="caps">USB</span> port.<br />
He gets in thru some other entrance, tech-support entrance.<br />
He replaces the <span class="caps">USB</span> port and he walk in to the store.<br />
He sees the queue, he realizes it&#8217;s that day when crazies line up for the new iphone.<br />
He thinks it would be cool to get one now, today &#8211; what a story to tell in the university canteen.<br />
He gets in line &#8211; the part of the line that&#8217;s inside the store &#8211; because he is already inside the store!<br />
Yes, technically it&#8217;s cutting in, but is this really so terrible?</p>
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		<title>By: Keith M Ellis</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/18/norm-enforcement-is-hard-but-people-do-it-anyway/comment-page-4/#comment-247020</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith M Ellis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jul 2008 21:55:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7067#comment-247020</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;I bet self-righteous Mr. Emerson cut in line quite a few times in his life. I bet every time it felt so natural that it didn’t register in his head at all. He just was in a hurry and needed to buy some aspirin, what’s the big deal, it only takes a second.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

I moderately sure that I&#039;ve never cut in line in my life, except by accident.  For me, the importance of this norm has a lot to do with its triviality—that is to say, it&#039;s a tragedy of the commons sort of thing.

In contrast, there&#039;s a large number of social norms that I violate.  The difference between what I violate and what I accept is generally how I evaluate the utilitarian function of the norm.  I do have a moderate compulsion to rebellion, but believe that rebellion for rebellion&#039;s sake to be immature and counter-productive.

Abb1&#039;s simplistic argument assumes that people are either conformists or rebels with no distinctions made beyond these temperaments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>&#8220;I bet self-righteous Mr. Emerson cut in line quite a few times in his life. I bet every time it felt so natural that it didn&#8217;t register in his head at all. He just was in a hurry and needed to buy some aspirin, what&#8217;s the big deal, it only takes a second.&#8221;</i></p>

	<p>I moderately sure that I&#8217;ve never cut in line in my life, except by accident.  For me, the importance of this norm has a lot to do with its triviality&#8212;that is to say, it&#8217;s a tragedy of the commons sort of thing.</p>

	<p>In contrast, there&#8217;s a large number of social norms that I violate.  The difference between what I violate and what I accept is generally how I evaluate the utilitarian function of the norm.  I do have a moderate compulsion to rebellion, but believe that rebellion for rebellion&#8217;s sake to be immature and counter-productive.</p>

	<p>Abb1&#8217;s simplistic argument assumes that people are either conformists or rebels with no distinctions made beyond these temperaments.</p>
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		<title>By: weichi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/18/norm-enforcement-is-hard-but-people-do-it-anyway/comment-page-4/#comment-246935</link>
		<dc:creator>weichi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jul 2008 06:05:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7067#comment-246935</guid>
		<description>Does anything change if, like me, you misread the guy&#039;s name as Lance Armstrong?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Does anything change if, like me, you misread the guy&#8217;s name as Lance Armstrong?</p>
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		<title>By: Patty</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/18/norm-enforcement-is-hard-but-people-do-it-anyway/comment-page-4/#comment-246869</link>
		<dc:creator>Patty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 17:35:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7067#comment-246869</guid>
		<description>How &#039;bout just calling a narcissist a narcissist?  Being from a small town in the South, it&#039;s not so much the calling out from Lance that&#039;d be a problem it&#039;s that your mother would know about this rude behavior by the time you got home.  This method of enforcement works whether you live at home or not :  )</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>How &#8216;bout just calling a narcissist a narcissist?  Being from a small town in the South, it&#8217;s not so much the calling out from Lance that&#8217;d be a problem it&#8217;s that your mother would know about this rude behavior by the time you got home.  This method of enforcement works whether you live at home or not :  )</p>
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		<title>By: sg</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/18/norm-enforcement-is-hard-but-people-do-it-anyway/comment-page-4/#comment-246807</link>
		<dc:creator>sg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 17:37:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7067#comment-246807</guid>
		<description>Dave, all daughters know that about their dads.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Dave, all daughters know that about their dads.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/18/norm-enforcement-is-hard-but-people-do-it-anyway/comment-page-4/#comment-246775</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 10:53:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7067#comment-246775</guid>
		<description>She has to write 150 times every day: &quot;better an asshole than self-righteous hypocrite.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>She has to write 150 times every day: &#8220;better an asshole than self-righteous hypocrite.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: belle le triste</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/18/norm-enforcement-is-hard-but-people-do-it-anyway/comment-page-4/#comment-246774</link>
		<dc:creator>belle le triste</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 10:47:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7067#comment-246774</guid>
		<description>variant a friend of my sister&#039;s told me at this party last night, offered for  commentary if anyone cares: 

earlier in the evening, FomS and her pal had been in line for a club (£10 entry, limited capacity): an exciteable guy (and HIS pal) had pleaded with them to be let in line before them, and offered to pay for all their entries if they allowed him in -- they accepted this if he also paid for the girl behind them, which he quite happily did... they rationalised this by a. finding it all a very strange and amusing adventure, and b. feeling that entry manifestly meant more to him than to them and probably many others in the queue, as witness how much more than the going rate he was prepared to shell out, so why not? 

(also: they said the club turned out to be lame, even if you&#039;d paid £0 for it, but i don&#039;t suppose this should be included in the moral equation)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>variant a friend of my sister&#8217;s told me at this party last night, offered for  commentary if anyone cares:</p>

	<p>earlier in the evening, FomS and her pal had been in line for a club (&#163;10 entry, limited capacity): an exciteable guy (and <span class="caps">HIS</span> pal) had pleaded with them to be let in line before them, and offered to pay for all their entries if they allowed him in&#8212;they accepted this if he also paid for the girl behind them, which he quite happily did&#8230; they rationalised this by a. finding it all a very strange and amusing adventure, and b. feeling that entry manifestly meant more to him than to them and probably many others in the queue, as witness how much more than the going rate he was prepared to shell out, so why not?</p>

	<p>(also: they said the club turned out to be lame, even if you&#8217;d paid &#163;0 for it, but i don&#8217;t suppose this should be included in the moral equation)</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/18/norm-enforcement-is-hard-but-people-do-it-anyway/comment-page-4/#comment-246773</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 10:46:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7067#comment-246773</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s his daughter I feel sorry for, does she know his hobby is being an asshole?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It&#8217;s his daughter I feel sorry for, does she know his hobby is being an asshole?</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/18/norm-enforcement-is-hard-but-people-do-it-anyway/comment-page-4/#comment-246764</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 08:28:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7067#comment-246764</guid>
		<description>Nah, he&#039;s not a motherfucker, just a grumpy old man, grampa Abe Simpson. Give him a break.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Nah, he&#8217;s not a motherfucker, just a grumpy old man, grampa Abe Simpson. Give him a break.</p>
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		<title>By: paul</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/18/norm-enforcement-is-hard-but-people-do-it-anyway/comment-page-4/#comment-246739</link>
		<dc:creator>paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 01:41:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7067#comment-246739</guid>
		<description>Pretty much any non-absurd utility function will lead to the &quot;no backsies&quot; rule. But the point of something logarithmic (or at least with decreasing pain allocated to the same increment depending on how long you wait) is that the person allowing frontsies is at the very least more entitled than anyone else to make the decision, because they are suffering the largest loss of utility.

Btw, in some hierarchical situations backsies is a perfect expression of clique-based precedence: &quot;My gang/entourage goes ahead of your gang.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Pretty much any non-absurd utility function will lead to the &#8220;no backsies&#8221; rule. But the point of something logarithmic (or at least with decreasing pain allocated to the same increment depending on how long you wait) is that the person allowing frontsies is at the very least more entitled than anyone else to make the decision, because they are suffering the largest loss of utility.</p>

	<p>Btw, in some hierarchical situations backsies is a perfect expression of clique-based precedence: &#8220;My gang/entourage goes ahead of your gang.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: Jesus</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/18/norm-enforcement-is-hard-but-people-do-it-anyway/comment-page-4/#comment-246732</link>
		<dc:creator>Jesus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 00:16:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7067#comment-246732</guid>
		<description>Abb1, John Emerson is annoying motherfucker.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Abb1, John Emerson is annoying motherfucker.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/18/norm-enforcement-is-hard-but-people-do-it-anyway/comment-page-3/#comment-246708</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jul 2008 21:21:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7067#comment-246708</guid>
		<description>...could it be because this treasonous member is identified as &quot;Asian girl&quot; in this case and Asian girls incite sympathy somehow? How very superficial of you, people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8230;could it be because this treasonous member is identified as &#8220;Asian girl&#8221; in this case and Asian girls incite sympathy somehow? How very superficial of you, people.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/18/norm-enforcement-is-hard-but-people-do-it-anyway/comment-page-3/#comment-246704</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jul 2008 21:11:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7067#comment-246704</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think the logarithmic approach has anything to do with the &quot;no backsies&quot; rule. It&#039;s simply that the backsies are totally unnatural; the line member granting a backsie makes no sacrifice whatsoever, and thus has no incentive to refrain from making this cutsie; this is clearly a gross injustice on the people behind this member. 

Otherwise - very good point. 

I still don&#039;t understand why no one here would support the idea that the line member who allowed the breach is the one who deserves the death penalty. This member has committed treason, she is one of us who has betrayed us all. The cutter himself isn&#039;t doing anything unconscionable like that; nothing shocking really, we all understand that everybody wants to be a member of our line.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I don&#8217;t think the logarithmic approach has anything to do with the &#8220;no backsies&#8221; rule. It&#8217;s simply that the backsies are totally unnatural; the line member granting a backsie makes no sacrifice whatsoever, and thus has no incentive to refrain from making this cutsie; this is clearly a gross injustice on the people behind this member.</p>

	<p>Otherwise &#8211; very good point.</p>

	<p>I still don&#8217;t understand why no one here would support the idea that the line member who allowed the breach is the one who deserves the death penalty. This member has committed treason, she is one of us who has betrayed us all. The cutter himself isn&#8217;t doing anything unconscionable like that; nothing shocking really, we all understand that everybody wants to be a member of our line.</p>
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		<title>By: paul</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/18/norm-enforcement-is-hard-but-people-do-it-anyway/comment-page-3/#comment-246703</link>
		<dc:creator>paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jul 2008 20:19:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7067#comment-246703</guid>
		<description>Unless the utility preferences for time spent in line are exactly proportional rather than logarithmic (the usual case for this kind of thing) then the people further back in line don&#039;t sustain equal damage. I think recognition of that idea is the reason that (in some schoolyards) frontsies are considered OK while backsies are just wrong. 

With most reasonable simple methods for calculating utility here, the person who allows someone to cut in front of them is losing the most, because their wait time increases by a larger fraction than anyone else. (Of course, that&#039;s no reason for them to gain all the compensation from the transaction, as they typically do, but in a repeated-interaction world this should all balance out.) Then again, simple models aren&#039;t really appropriate when stores have limited stock or limited open hours, or a significant number of people have hard constraints on their time (e.g. lunch hour). In those cases, cutting should be a capital offense, and the person who offers to let someone cut in front of them should be considered a co-conspirator.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Unless the utility preferences for time spent in line are exactly proportional rather than logarithmic (the usual case for this kind of thing) then the people further back in line don&#8217;t sustain equal damage. I think recognition of that idea is the reason that (in some schoolyards) frontsies are considered OK while backsies are just wrong.</p>

	<p>With most reasonable simple methods for calculating utility here, the person who allows someone to cut in front of them is losing the most, because their wait time increases by a larger fraction than anyone else. (Of course, that&#8217;s no reason for them to gain all the compensation from the transaction, as they typically do, but in a repeated-interaction world this should all balance out.) Then again, simple models aren&#8217;t really appropriate when stores have limited stock or limited open hours, or a significant number of people have hard constraints on their time (e.g. lunch hour). In those cases, cutting should be a capital offense, and the person who offers to let someone cut in front of them should be considered a co-conspirator.</p>
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		<title>By: John  Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/18/norm-enforcement-is-hard-but-people-do-it-anyway/comment-page-3/#comment-246702</link>
		<dc:creator>John  Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jul 2008 19:57:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7067#comment-246702</guid>
		<description>Jesus, Abb1 is an annoying motherfucker.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Jesus, Abb1 is an annoying motherfucker.</p>
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