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	<title>Comments on: 24/7 Solar Madness</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/23/247-solar-madness/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/23/247-solar-madness/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 07:14:29 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/23/247-solar-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-247615</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jul 2008 10:25:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7121#comment-247615</guid>
		<description>Jimbo @ 42 - I&#039;m relieved to hear that only my personality stands between humanity &amp; the terrestrial paradise.  Some mornings I don&#039;t feel quite that optimistic, but the human condition&#039;s a bitch, ain&#039;t she?
I&#039;m glad we can agree on Senator Obama.  Though I&#039;m rather hoping he won&#039;t turn out to be another Nixon . . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Jimbo @ 42 &#8211; I&#8217;m relieved to hear that only my personality stands between humanity &#038; the terrestrial paradise.  Some mornings I don&#8217;t feel quite that optimistic, but the human condition&#8217;s a bitch, ain&#8217;t she?<br />
I&#8217;m glad we can agree on Senator Obama.  Though I&#8217;m rather hoping he won&#8217;t turn out to be another Nixon . . .</p>
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		<title>By: George W</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/23/247-solar-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-247518</link>
		<dc:creator>George W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 22:26:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7121#comment-247518</guid>
		<description>That is a gem.  Sounds like a line written for the designated dim bulb on a sitcom, like the blonde daughter on Married with Children.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>That is a gem.  Sounds like a line written for the designated dim bulb on a sitcom, like the blonde daughter on Married with Children.</p>
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		<title>By: bruce</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/23/247-solar-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-247517</link>
		<dc:creator>bruce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 22:13:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7121#comment-247517</guid>
		<description>neither wind nor solar will ever provide more than a fraction of our electricity as they are not cost effective yet.the basic reason for the hysteria over carbon dioxide is false as there is no correlation between temperature and c02 the earth has not warmed in the last 100yrs.don&#039;t believe me ,type c02 during the carboniferous period. we are actually c02 deficient compared to earth&#039;s past history.man made global warming=piltown man.this b.s. was pushed by the new york slime in the 1930&#039;s when 1934 was and is the hottest year on record however there was no warming then or now. the average temp. has not changed in the last 100yrs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>neither wind nor solar will ever provide more than a fraction of our electricity as they are not cost effective yet.the basic reason for the hysteria over carbon dioxide is false as there is no correlation between temperature and c02 the earth has not warmed in the last 100yrs.don&#8217;t believe me ,type c02 during the carboniferous period. we are actually c02 deficient compared to earth&#8217;s past history.man made global warming=piltown man.this b.s. was pushed by the new york slime in the 1930&#8217;s when 1934 was and is the hottest year on record however there was no warming then or now. the average temp. has not changed in the last 100yrs.</p>
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		<title>By: functional</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/23/247-solar-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-247482</link>
		<dc:creator>functional</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 20:01:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7121#comment-247482</guid>
		<description>&quot;We did something expensive involving airplanes 54 years ago&quot; isn&#039;t proof that it is now technologically feasible to scrap virtually all of our electrical supply and recreate it with solar and wind power within 10 years.  That&#039;s what we logicians call a &quot;non sequitur.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;We did something expensive involving airplanes 54 years ago&#8221; isn&#8217;t proof that it is now technologically feasible to scrap virtually all of our electrical supply and recreate it with solar and wind power within 10 years.  That&#8217;s what we logicians call a &#8220;non sequitur.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: ajay</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/23/247-solar-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-247375</link>
		<dc:creator>ajay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 13:04:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7121#comment-247375</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;His point was that getting to 100% renewable electricity in 10 years is impossible—and I don’t see anyone even trying to refute that point.&lt;/i&gt;

Of course it&#039;s not impossible. We&#039;re talking about a nation that built a hundred thousand aircraft a year in 1944. Think the US couldn&#039;t manage a similar effort with renewables? Politically infeasible and very expensive are not the same as impossible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>His point was that getting to 100% renewable electricity in 10 years is impossible&#8212;and I don&#8217;t see anyone even trying to refute that point.</i></p>

	<p>Of course it&#8217;s not impossible. We&#8217;re talking about a nation that built a hundred thousand aircraft a year in 1944. Think the US couldn&#8217;t manage a similar effort with renewables? Politically infeasible and very expensive are not the same as impossible.</p>
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		<title>By: Helen</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/23/247-solar-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-247345</link>
		<dc:creator>Helen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 03:31:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7121#comment-247345</guid>
		<description>&quot;Functional&quot;:  &quot;This post represents everything that is silly and stupid about blogging.&quot; Whereas a brown-and-white site offering links to &quot;Body Building Supplements&quot; is hugely intelligent?

The nuke-vs. Solar debate always reminds me of when the Marketing department of IBM pronounced that there would be no more than - four, or was it six? - computers in the world, eventually. Now we are communicating on the WWW. It seems like engineering types are always wedded to the Big Bang / Centralised solution and think the distributed version will never work, but surely we&#039;re the living denial of that right now as we put fingers to keyboard.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Functional&#8221;:  &#8220;This post represents everything that is silly and stupid about blogging.&#8221; Whereas a brown-and-white site offering links to &#8220;Body Building Supplements&#8221; is hugely intelligent?</p>

	<p>The nuke-vs. Solar debate always reminds me of when the Marketing department of <span class="caps">IBM</span> pronounced that there would be no more than &#8211; four, or was it six? &#8211; computers in the world, eventually. Now we are communicating on the <span class="caps">WWW</span>. It seems like engineering types are always wedded to the Big Bang / Centralised solution and think the distributed version will never work, but surely we&#8217;re the living denial of that right now as we put fingers to keyboard.</p>
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		<title>By: jimbo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/23/247-solar-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-247277</link>
		<dc:creator>jimbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 18:05:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7121#comment-247277</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s when I read people like Nick that I realize we&#039;re doomed.  Self righteous, ignorant of physical and economic realities, will protest loudly against the only real energy solution we have and instead continue to propose preposterous &quot;solutions&quot; that have no chance of actually succeeding.  Somehow, the idea of being able to rapidly scale up nuclear power (France: 0 to 80% of electricity in 15 years, and the only reason it stopped  80% is that most of the rest is hydro) is ridiculous, while scaling up wind and solar is somehow a piece of cake.

This is why I&#039;m really hoping Obama gets elected - aside from really not liking McCain, I figure if Obama (against all odds) starts listening to reality and not wishful thinking and scaremongering on nukes, he might have a chance to get it done, in a &quot;Nixon to China&quot; way...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It&#8217;s when I read people like Nick that I realize we&#8217;re doomed.  Self righteous, ignorant of physical and economic realities, will protest loudly against the only real energy solution we have and instead continue to propose preposterous &#8220;solutions&#8221; that have no chance of actually succeeding.  Somehow, the idea of being able to rapidly scale up nuclear power (France: 0 to 80% of electricity in 15 years, and the only reason it stopped  80% is that most of the rest is hydro) is ridiculous, while scaling up wind and solar is somehow a piece of cake.</p>

	<p>This is why I&#8217;m really hoping Obama gets elected &#8211; aside from really not liking McCain, I figure if Obama (against all odds) starts listening to reality and not wishful thinking and scaremongering on nukes, he might have a chance to get it done, in a &#8220;Nixon to China&#8221; way&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: functional</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/23/247-solar-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-247253</link>
		<dc:creator>functional</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 15:24:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7121#comment-247253</guid>
		<description>This post represents everything that is silly and stupid about blogging.  Obviously the guy didn&#039;t mean that he thinks the sun goes out every night and restarts in the morning, so it&#039;s just childish to ridicule him as if he meant that (and for a bunch of adolescent commenters to gang up on him).  Instead, he meant to refer to the &quot;sun shining&quot; in the way that we all do when speaking colloquially -- shining in a particular location.  His point was that getting to 100% renewable electricity in 10 years is impossible -- and I don&#039;t see anyone even trying to refute that point. 

Have you ever said, &quot;I expected rain, but it looks like the sun is shining,&quot; and then had someone respond, &quot;Oh, what an ignoramus, the sun is always out there shining even when it happens to be raining on earth&quot;?  Probably not.  Anyone who acted like that in real life would be either autistic or else just a blowhard; everyone else knows better than to pretend that they don&#039;t understand anything other than literal meanings.  

You guys must be very tiresome at parties.  

&quot;Hey, it&#039;s been great; my wife and I are about to take off.&quot;  &quot;Oh really?  I don&#039;t see an airplane.&quot;  

&quot;These sandwiches are to die for.&quot;  &quot;Are you really so desperate that you&#039;d give up your life for a sandwich?&quot;

&quot;It&#039;s raining cats and dogs out there.&quot;  &quot;Actually, that&#039;s just ordinary water falling from the sky -- a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>This post represents everything that is silly and stupid about blogging.  Obviously the guy didn&#8217;t mean that he thinks the sun goes out every night and restarts in the morning, so it&#8217;s just childish to ridicule him as if he meant that (and for a bunch of adolescent commenters to gang up on him).  Instead, he meant to refer to the &#8220;sun shining&#8221; in the way that we all do when speaking colloquially&#8212;shining in a particular location.  His point was that getting to 100% renewable electricity in 10 years is impossible&#8212;and I don&#8217;t see anyone even trying to refute that point.</p>

	<p>Have you ever said, &#8220;I expected rain, but it looks like the sun is shining,&#8221; and then had someone respond, &#8220;Oh, what an ignoramus, the sun is always out there shining even when it happens to be raining on earth&#8221;?  Probably not.  Anyone who acted like that in real life would be either autistic or else just a blowhard; everyone else knows better than to pretend that they don&#8217;t understand anything other than literal meanings.</p>

	<p>You guys must be very tiresome at parties.</p>

	<p>&#8220;Hey, it&#8217;s been great; my wife and I are about to take off.&#8221;  &#8220;Oh really?  I don&#8217;t see an airplane.&#8221;</p>

	<p>&#8220;These sandwiches are to die for.&#8221;  &#8220;Are you really so desperate that you&#8217;d give up your life for a sandwich?&#8221;</p>

	<p>&#8220;It&#8217;s raining cats and dogs out there.&#8221;  &#8220;Actually, that&#8217;s just ordinary water falling from the sky&#8212;a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: ajay</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/23/247-solar-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-247219</link>
		<dc:creator>ajay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:03:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7121#comment-247219</guid>
		<description>Richard Cownie: all good points, but I would add a couple of others: a) pumped storage relies on you finding a suitable uphill reservoir site, which isn&#039;t easy, especially if you are in a flat country; b) simple mechanics would show that there are other problems with flywheel-driven vehicles than simply the danger of the flywheel coming off.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Richard Cownie: all good points, but I would add a couple of others: a) pumped storage relies on you finding a suitable uphill reservoir site, which isn&#8217;t easy, especially if you are in a flat country; b) simple mechanics would show that there are other problems with flywheel-driven vehicles than simply the danger of the flywheel coming off.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/23/247-solar-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-247202</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 06:49:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7121#comment-247202</guid>
		<description>Noen @34 -
Except that it&#039;s not.  As a solution for global warming, building nukes falls into the category of &#039;running around with the illusion of purposeful activity to make us all feel better&#039;, not &#039;stuff that&#039;s going to make a blind bit of difference&#039;.   Saying &#039;repent and believe or you will be doomed on the day of Gaia&#039;s wrath&#039; doesn&#039;t alter that.  Your god is dead, be your belief never so fervent.  Sorry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Noen @34 &#8211; Except that it&#8217;s not.  As a solution for global warming, building nukes falls into the category of &#8216;running around with the illusion of purposeful activity to make us all feel better&#8217;, not &#8216;stuff that&#8217;s going to make a blind bit of difference&#8217;.   Saying &#8216;repent and believe or you will be doomed on the day of Gaia&#8217;s wrath&#8217; doesn&#8217;t alter that.  Your god is dead, be your belief never so fervent.  Sorry.</p>
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		<title>By: snuh</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/23/247-solar-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-247186</link>
		<dc:creator>snuh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 00:29:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7121#comment-247186</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Setting the obvious mistake aside I think it’s very unlikely we’ll achieve 100 percent of our power from renewables in 10 years. One, I don’t believe the political will for that exists or will exist. Two, I don’t believe it is technically feasible without resorting to nuclear power.&lt;/i&gt;

is nuclear power really &quot;renewable&quot;?  the amount of uranium in the earth is finite, after all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Setting the obvious mistake aside I think it&#8217;s very unlikely we&#8217;ll achieve 100 percent of our power from renewables in 10 years. One, I don&#8217;t believe the political will for that exists or will exist. Two, I don&#8217;t believe it is technically feasible without resorting to nuclear power.</i></p>

	<p>is nuclear power really &#8220;renewable&#8221;?  the amount of uranium in the earth is finite, after all.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Cownie</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/23/247-solar-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-247162</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Cownie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 19:27:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7121#comment-247162</guid>
		<description>&quot;You’re trying to be snarky yet amusingly enough the lack of high-quality, large-scale battery technology really is holding back solar and wind technologies by making it very difficult to make sure that the electricity is available when we need it.&quot;

Not a big problem, actually.  Firstly, peak load arises when air conditioners are going full tilt, i.e. on hot sunny afternoons, which is just when solar (either thermal or PV) would peak.  Secondly, there&#039;s at least one proven way to store large amounts of energy: pumped hydroelectric storage.  Ideally you have a reservoir up a hill - but you can get the same effect with a deep hole in the ground.  Underground compressed air, and big tanks of high-pressure steam, can also be quite effective.  Flywheels can do a decent job but AFAIK they aren&#039;t actually cost-competitive: raising water a couple hundred feet can store a huge amount of energy, and the cost is proportional to the charge and discharge rate, not the total energy capacity.

Where battery technology really matters is for transport.  There you need some form of energy storage with high energy density (MJ/kg), low risk of explosive release (a definite concern for flywheels) , high power discharge rate (for decent acceleration), and ideally also even higher charge rate (for regenerative braking).

That&#039;s a lot tougher than the constraints for electricity-grid load-levelling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;You&#8217;re trying to be snarky yet amusingly enough the lack of high-quality, large-scale battery technology really is holding back solar and wind technologies by making it very difficult to make sure that the electricity is available when we need it.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Not a big problem, actually.  Firstly, peak load arises when air conditioners are going full tilt, i.e. on hot sunny afternoons, which is just when solar (either thermal or PV) would peak.  Secondly, there&#8217;s at least one proven way to store large amounts of energy: pumped hydroelectric storage.  Ideally you have a reservoir up a hill &#8211; but you can get the same effect with a deep hole in the ground.  Underground compressed air, and big tanks of high-pressure steam, can also be quite effective.  Flywheels can do a decent job but <span class="caps">AFAIK</span> they aren&#8217;t actually cost-competitive: raising water a couple hundred feet can store a huge amount of energy, and the cost is proportional to the charge and discharge rate, not the total energy capacity.</p>

	<p>Where battery technology really matters is for transport.  There you need some form of energy storage with high energy density (MJ/kg), low risk of explosive release (a definite concern for flywheels) , high power discharge rate (for decent acceleration), and ideally also even higher charge rate (for regenerative braking).</p>

	<p>That&#8217;s a lot tougher than the constraints for electricity-grid load-levelling.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/23/247-solar-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-247156</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 18:52:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7121#comment-247156</guid>
		<description>He operates in the shadows.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>He operates in the shadows.</p>
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		<title>By: "Q" the Enchanter</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/23/247-solar-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-247146</link>
		<dc:creator>"Q" the Enchanter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:28:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7121#comment-247146</guid>
		<description>If the sun shines 24 hours a day, how can Lewandowski possibly be so dim?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>If the sun shines 24 hours a day, how can Lewandowski possibly be so dim?</p>
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		<title>By: noen</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/23/247-solar-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-247141</link>
		<dc:creator>noen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 16:58:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7121#comment-247141</guid>
		<description>Nick, it&#039;s the only chance we have. There is no other.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Nick, it&#8217;s the only chance we have. There is no other.</p>
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