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	<title>Comments on: Sacrilege!</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/25/sacrilege/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Roy Belmont</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/25/sacrilege/comment-page-7/#comment-248137</link>
		<dc:creator>Roy Belmont</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jul 2008 05:10:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7149#comment-248137</guid>
		<description>Seth:
One obstacle may be the firm conviction inevitable to successful academics that having the right answer, in that lifelong setting logical rational conclusions drawn from provable evidence, is the only path forward. 
Another might be a behind-the-scenes-ish urge toward self-censorship around that particular topic. 

An easy calculation says the heat isn&#039;t worth it to people with tenure issues and professional reputations at stake. Destroying your career to further some blog debate which won&#039;t affect anything anyway sort of thing.

Not that it isn&#039;t the most critically important topic in the contemporary landscape. 
Not that its possible outcomes aren&#039;t desperately crucial to all of us. 

Just that the real power, in the US and UK at least,  isn&#039;t morally clear enough to be able to tolerate open debate.  Nor is it morally clean enough to abstain from pressuring said academics in all kinds of unpleasant ways, should they provide a forum for that intolerable debate.
Bill Donohue&#039;s not the only thuggish zealot at work these days.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Seth:<br />
One obstacle may be the firm conviction inevitable to successful academics that having the right answer, in that lifelong setting logical rational conclusions drawn from provable evidence, is the only path forward.<br />
Another might be a behind-the-scenes-ish urge toward self-censorship around that particular topic.</p>

	<p>An easy calculation says the heat isn&#8217;t worth it to people with tenure issues and professional reputations at stake. Destroying your career to further some blog debate which won&#8217;t affect anything anyway sort of thing.</p>

	<p>Not that it isn&#8217;t the most critically important topic in the contemporary landscape.<br />
Not that its possible outcomes aren&#8217;t desperately crucial to all of us.</p>

	<p>Just that the real power, in the US and UK at least,  isn&#8217;t morally clear enough to be able to tolerate open debate.  Nor is it morally clean enough to abstain from pressuring said academics in all kinds of unpleasant ways, should they provide a forum for that intolerable debate.<br />
Bill Donohue&#8217;s not the only thuggish zealot at work these days.</p>
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		<title>By: seth edenbaum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/25/sacrilege/comment-page-7/#comment-248082</link>
		<dc:creator>seth edenbaum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 19:50:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7149#comment-248082</guid>
		<description>Excuse me Daniel, I posted a link concerning a war between a nominally secular state (one backed by secularists as a triumph of modernity) and those whom that state has thrown off their land.   First came &quot;waiting for moderation,&quot; then nothing: gone.   Or does a military occupation by the champions modernity and democracy not warrant &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=But9m3O4umI&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;a reply?&lt;/a&gt;

In a related note: Eric Shinseki &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/29/AR2008072901647.html?hpid=opinionsbox1&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;writes a letter&lt;/a&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;I am greatly concerned that OSD processes have often become ad hoc and long established conventional processes are atrophying. Specifically, there are areas that need your attention as the ad hoc processes often do not adequately consider professional military judgment and advice. . . . . Second, there is a lack of strategic review to frame our day-to-day issues . . . . Third, there has been a lack of explicit discussion on risk in most decisions. . . . Finally, I find it unhelpful to participate in senior level decision-making meetings without structured agendas, objectives, pending decisions and other traditional means of time management.&lt;/blockquote&gt; The military isn&#039;t run on democratic process, but its a process nonetheless.  And Rumsfeld never thought it was necessary.  We use processes because &lt;i&gt;no one&lt;/i&gt; has a monopoly on reason. I don&#039;t give a shit if my neighbors think the moon is made of green cheese.  I do give a shit if they think they have a right to barge in my house and put a gun to my head and steal everything I own.   Cracker or Body of Christ,  neither is the point, except to absolutists.  
Absolutism makes for lousy politics.  300 comments fighting over that obvious point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Excuse me Daniel, I posted a link concerning a war between a nominally secular state (one backed by secularists as a triumph of modernity) and those whom that state has thrown off their land.   First came &#8220;waiting for moderation,&#8221; then nothing: gone.   Or does a military occupation by the champions modernity and democracy not warrant <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=But9m3O4umI" rel="nofollow">a reply?</a></p>

	<p>In a related note: Eric Shinseki <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/29/AR2008072901647.html?hpid=opinionsbox1" rel="nofollow">writes a letter</a><blockquote>I am greatly concerned that <span class="caps">OSD</span> processes have often become ad hoc and long established conventional processes are atrophying. Specifically, there are areas that need your attention as the ad hoc processes often do not adequately consider professional military judgment and advice. . . . . Second, there is a lack of strategic review to frame our day-to-day issues . . . . Third, there has been a lack of explicit discussion on risk in most decisions. . . . Finally, I find it unhelpful to participate in senior level decision-making meetings without structured agendas, objectives, pending decisions and other traditional means of time management.</blockquote> The military isn&#8217;t run on democratic process, but its a process nonetheless.  And Rumsfeld never thought it was necessary.  We use processes because <i>no one</i> has a monopoly on reason. I don&#8217;t give a shit if my neighbors think the moon is made of green cheese.  I do give a shit if they think they have a right to barge in my house and put a gun to my head and steal everything I own.   Cracker or Body of Christ,  neither is the point, except to absolutists.<br />
Absolutism makes for lousy politics.  300 comments fighting over that obvious point.</p>
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		<title>By: Righteous Bubba</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/25/sacrilege/comment-page-7/#comment-248072</link>
		<dc:creator>Righteous Bubba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 17:32:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7149#comment-248072</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Are there any early signs of terroristic tendencies?&lt;/i&gt;

I predict deep unease at rainbow sherbet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Are there any early signs of terroristic tendencies?</i></p>

	<p>I predict deep unease at rainbow sherbet.</p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/25/sacrilege/comment-page-7/#comment-248071</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 17:28:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7149#comment-248071</guid>
		<description>So Daniel did you go through with it? Has the sprog been indoctrinated? Are there any early signs of terroristic tendencies?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>So Daniel did you go through with it? Has the sprog been indoctrinated? Are there any early signs of terroristic tendencies?</p>
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		<title>By: salientdowns</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/25/sacrilege/comment-page-7/#comment-248068</link>
		<dc:creator>salientdowns</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 17:02:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7149#comment-248068</guid>
		<description>Sigh.

There was no money. There was no robbery.

And there was no murder either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Sigh.</p>

	<p>There was no money. There was no robbery.</p>

	<p>And there was no murder either.</p>
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		<title>By: Roy Belmont</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/25/sacrilege/comment-page-7/#comment-247957</link>
		<dc:creator>Roy Belmont</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 21:58:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7149#comment-247957</guid>
		<description>Whereas before half of them were in your hat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Whereas before half of them were in your hat.</p>
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		<title>By: Righteous Bubba</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/25/sacrilege/comment-page-7/#comment-247954</link>
		<dc:creator>Righteous Bubba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 20:42:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7149#comment-247954</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;There aren’t any, there never were, I made it all up.&lt;/i&gt;

Oh dear.  All the chess pieces are on the floor now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>There aren&#8217;t any, there never were, I made it all up.</i></p>

	<p>Oh dear.  All the chess pieces are on the floor now.</p>
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		<title>By: Roy Belmont</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/25/sacrilege/comment-page-7/#comment-247951</link>
		<dc:creator>Roy Belmont</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 20:24:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7149#comment-247951</guid>
		<description>RBub @#278:
&lt;i&gt;Who were these many and what...&lt;/i&gt;
There aren&#039;t any, there never were, I made it all up. 
Total mischaracterization and complete misrepresentation for purposes of internet stardom as valiant opponent of non-existent ratio-posito twits who think scoring cheap points on soft targets is the way to better living.
But that train&#039;s still off the rails.

Future scenarios: more Knoxvilles, fewer Knoxvilles, as the polarity either heightens and deepens, or subsides. You choose! 

Unless you&#039;re like some who believe they have no direct influence on where all this goes and therefore are justified in pursuing immediate self-gratification wherever it leads.

ScOfV @#295:
&lt;i&gt;...you refuse to condemn the beneficiaries of his&lt;/i&gt; [Donohue&#039;s] &lt;i&gt;intemperate remarks...&lt;/i&gt;

YOU are a beneficiary of said remarks! You! Yourself! 
You are youare youare! And I condemn you!
You are condemned! Nyahh nyahh.
You like it! So does Myers! It&#039;s exciting and fun!
You are also an intellectually gifted crazy person. Yes you are.
Myers not so much so.
I especially like the part where I say you&#039;re throwing your own auto-obscured self-criticisms onto me, and then you say that I&#039;m doing that to you &lt;i&gt;without even mentioning&lt;/i&gt; I already said that.

Crazy person is okay but it&#039;s better for the rest if you can carry it consciously.
A little self-doubt now and then, yeah.  It can be beneficial in so may ways.
I know this from much time spent in rigorously unbiased introspection.

Hah! Unh! Yeeaaahh!
Hoopa hoopa!
Uhmmmmm...YEAH!

&#039;Bye</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>RBub @#278:<br />
<i>Who were these many and what&#8230;</i><br />
There aren&#8217;t any, there never were, I made it all up.<br />
Total mischaracterization and complete misrepresentation for purposes of internet stardom as valiant opponent of non-existent ratio-posito twits who think scoring cheap points on soft targets is the way to better living.<br />
But that train&#8217;s still off the rails.</p>

	<p>Future scenarios: more Knoxvilles, fewer Knoxvilles, as the polarity either heightens and deepens, or subsides. You choose!</p>

	<p>Unless you&#8217;re like some who believe they have no direct influence on where all this goes and therefore are justified in pursuing immediate self-gratification wherever it leads.</p>

	<p>ScOfV @#295:<br />
<i>&#8230;you refuse to condemn the beneficiaries of his</i> [Donohue&#8217;s] <i>intemperate remarks&#8230;</i></p>

	<p><span class="caps">YOU</span> are a beneficiary of said remarks! You! Yourself!<br />
You are youare youare! And I condemn you!<br />
You are condemned! Nyahh nyahh.<br />
You like it! So does Myers! It&#8217;s exciting and fun!<br />
You are also an intellectually gifted crazy person. Yes you are.<br />
Myers not so much so.<br />
I especially like the part where I say you&#8217;re throwing your own auto-obscured self-criticisms onto me, and then you say that I&#8217;m doing that to you <i>without even mentioning</i> I already said that.</p>

	<p>Crazy person is okay but it&#8217;s better for the rest if you can carry it consciously.<br />
A little self-doubt now and then, yeah.  It can be beneficial in so may ways.<br />
I know this from much time spent in rigorously unbiased introspection.</p>

	<p>Hah! Unh! Yeeaaahh!<br />
Hoopa hoopa!<br />
Uhmmmmm&#8230;YEAH!</p>

	<p>&#8216;Bye</p>
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		<title>By: Righteous Bubba</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/25/sacrilege/comment-page-7/#comment-247943</link>
		<dc:creator>Righteous Bubba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 17:56:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7149#comment-247943</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I have no opinion one way or another at this level about the laws of the universe.&lt;/i&gt;

Gotta disagree with you there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>I have no opinion one way or another at this level about the laws of the universe.</i></p>

	<p>Gotta disagree with you there.</p>
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		<title>By: seth edenbaum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/25/sacrilege/comment-page-7/#comment-247939</link>
		<dc:creator>seth edenbaum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 17:19:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7149#comment-247939</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/18/science/18law.html?_r=1&amp;pagewanted=print&amp;oref=slogin&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;another link&lt;/a&gt; Steve;  to a journalistic discussion of physics and Platonism.
I have no opinion one way or another at this level about the laws of the universe.  My only interests are in  explaining my preference for representative democracy and my concerns regarding the use of  Platonism as a model for social and political doctrine.&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;Well, if truth, reason, virtue, etc are not objective qualities that people exemplify to varying degrees, but are rather relative to each person, we have a way out: everyone is as smart and good as anyone else to himself. Then democracy rests on no lie, since everyone really is cognitively and morally equal. Relativism steps in to save democracy from its noble lie. Thus relativism finds a foothold. But relativism is rubbish; so where does that leave democracy?&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;Where indeed?
The link to that comment is up the thread a bit. If you were following the argument you would have read it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Here&#8217;s <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/18/science/18law.html?_r=1&#038;pagewanted=print&#038;oref=slogin" rel="nofollow">another link</a> Steve;  to a journalistic discussion of physics and Platonism.<br />
I have no opinion one way or another at this level about the laws of the universe.  My only interests are in  explaining my preference for representative democracy and my concerns regarding the use of  Platonism as a model for social and political doctrine.<blockquote>&#8220;Well, if truth, reason, virtue, etc are not objective qualities that people exemplify to varying degrees, but are rather relative to each person, we have a way out: everyone is as smart and good as anyone else to himself. Then democracy rests on no lie, since everyone really is cognitively and morally equal. Relativism steps in to save democracy from its noble lie. Thus relativism finds a foothold. But relativism is rubbish; so where does that leave democracy?&#8221;</blockquote>Where indeed?<br />
The link to that comment is up the thread a bit. If you were following the argument you would have read it.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/25/sacrilege/comment-page-6/#comment-247930</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 16:28:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7149#comment-247930</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure about &#039;platonism&#039; either, but isn&#039;t it true that non-religious people don&#039;t always act as wisely as one would expect from this kind of discussions? And also, isn&#039;t it true that cracker-worshiping idiots can sometimes be quite intelligent in cracker-unrelated areas? That&#039;s a valid point. I haven&#039;t noticed any religious commenters in this thread; had they been here, they would&#039;ve been making their standard points about Stalin, Hitler, etc., but they aren&#039;t here, so &#039;platonism&#039; it is...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m not sure about &#8216;platonism&#8217; either, but isn&#8217;t it true that non-religious people don&#8217;t always act as wisely as one would expect from this kind of discussions? And also, isn&#8217;t it true that cracker-worshiping idiots can sometimes be quite intelligent in cracker-unrelated areas? That&#8217;s a valid point. I haven&#8217;t noticed any religious commenters in this thread; had they been here, they would&#8217;ve been making their standard points about Stalin, Hitler, etc., but they aren&#8217;t here, so &#8216;platonism&#8217; it is&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Steve LaBonne</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/25/sacrilege/comment-page-6/#comment-247921</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve LaBonne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 15:08:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7149#comment-247921</guid>
		<description>Edenbaum, the content-free, purely emotive way in which you throw around buzzwords like &quot;platonism&quot; is indicative of why I can&#039;t be bothered to take you seriously.

But carry on ranting, it&#039;s a free country.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Edenbaum, the content-free, purely emotive way in which you throw around buzzwords like &#8220;platonism&#8221; is indicative of why I can&#8217;t be bothered to take you seriously.</p>

	<p>But carry on ranting, it&#8217;s a free country.</p>
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		<title>By: seth edenbaum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/25/sacrilege/comment-page-6/#comment-247919</link>
		<dc:creator>seth edenbaum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 14:59:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7149#comment-247919</guid>
		<description>Steve,
You picked two words out of an argument as a way to insert yourself into it,  in pompous fashion.  Do you agree that this &quot;new&quot; description of nonsimple, nonuniform religious form covers &quot;Secular Platonists.&quot;   That&#039;s my question now, as in essence it was before.

The issue is less religion than our continuing [animal] habit of relying on  assumption and faith. &quot;Faith Explained&quot; would interest me more as a title.  Though Boyer might even agree.  The absurdities of grand faith are a byproduct of the biological function of an everyday variety we live by.  We&#039;re pattern-makers.  &quot;synecdoches for community&quot;  Our patterns are collective that&#039;s all. 
Still, my only question, for all concerned, is this: 
Would you prefer the rule of reason or the rule of law?
History has shown the rule of reason to be a failure.  Those that have claimed to represent it in the past have given us the rule of unmediated faith; and hell on earth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Steve,<br />
You picked two words out of an argument as a way to insert yourself into it,  in pompous fashion.  Do you agree that this &#8220;new&#8221; description of nonsimple, nonuniform religious form covers &#8220;Secular Platonists.&#8221;   That&#8217;s my question now, as in essence it was before.</p>

	<p>The issue is less religion than our continuing [animal] habit of relying on  assumption and faith. &#8220;Faith Explained&#8221; would interest me more as a title.  Though Boyer might even agree.  The absurdities of grand faith are a byproduct of the biological function of an everyday variety we live by.  We&#8217;re pattern-makers.  &#8220;synecdoches for community&#8221;  Our patterns are collective that&#8217;s all.<br />
Still, my only question, for all concerned, is this:<br />
Would you prefer the rule of reason or the rule of law?<br />
History has shown the rule of reason to be a failure.  Those that have claimed to represent it in the past have given us the rule of unmediated faith; and hell on earth.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/25/sacrilege/comment-page-6/#comment-247916</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 14:38:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7149#comment-247916</guid>
		<description>This is great! Hot troll-on-troll action!! Keep it up boyzangirlz....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>This is great! Hot troll-on-troll action!! Keep it up boyzangirlz&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: ScentOfViolets</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/07/25/sacrilege/comment-page-6/#comment-247914</link>
		<dc:creator>ScentOfViolets</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 14:21:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7149#comment-247914</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;while I am perhaps the last person on earth who is well-placed to tell anyone else that winding people up for the sake of it is a really silly and childish thing to do … well, winding people up for the sake of it is a really silly and childish thing to do, and furthermore Dawkinsite militant atheists holier-than-thou “secular liberals” are as annoying as fundies in their own way and perhaps deserve a bit of winding up too

How are you going to do this?  Make more death threats over a bit of doggerel?  Have powerful, tax-exempt religious organizations use government money to prosletyze?  Or maybe use their not-inconsiderable resources to pass legislation that obligates the rest of us to hew to their silly sectarian beliefs?

Yeah, that might wind up a few people.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><blockquote>while I am perhaps the last person on earth who is well-placed to tell anyone else that winding people up for the sake of it is a really silly and childish thing to do &#8230; well, winding people up for the sake of it is a really silly and childish thing to do, and furthermore Dawkinsite militant atheists holier-than-thou &#8220;secular liberals&#8221; are as annoying as fundies in their own way and perhaps deserve a bit of winding up too</blockquote></p>

	<p>How are you going to do this?  Make more death threats over a bit of doggerel?  Have powerful, tax-exempt religious organizations use government money to prosletyze?  Or maybe use their not-inconsiderable resources to pass legislation that obligates the rest of us to hew to their silly sectarian beliefs?</p>

	<p>Yeah, that might wind up a few people.</p>
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