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	<title>Comments on: Postcode lotteries</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/08/13/postcode-lotteries/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: derrida derider</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/08/13/postcode-lotteries/comment-page-1/#comment-249781</link>
		<dc:creator>derrida derider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 01:40:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7392#comment-249781</guid>
		<description>elliotg&#039;s right.  Having the purchaser at a sub-national level makes it easy for the drug companies to play games to push up prices.

Australia does not have an NHS but it does have a national pharmaceutical subsidy scheme, which is easily big enough to simulate the effect of a single puchaser so as to appropriate drug company rents.  The (pre-subsidy) prices of drugs on the Australian PBS are about the cheapest in the developed world.  We still get those drug-company sponsored &quot;life saving drug denied to war veteran by heartless bureaucrats&quot; stories in our tabloids, but they don&#039;t have much political effect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>elliotg&#8217;s right.  Having the purchaser at a sub-national level makes it easy for the drug companies to play games to push up prices.</p>

	<p>Australia does not have an <span class="caps">NHS</span> but it does have a national pharmaceutical subsidy scheme, which is easily big enough to simulate the effect of a single puchaser so as to appropriate drug company rents.  The (pre-subsidy) prices of drugs on the Australian <span class="caps">PBS</span> are about the cheapest in the developed world.  We still get those drug-company sponsored &#8220;life saving drug denied to war veteran by heartless bureaucrats&#8221; stories in our tabloids, but they don&#8217;t have much political effect.</p>
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		<title>By: sg</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/08/13/postcode-lotteries/comment-page-1/#comment-249683</link>
		<dc:creator>sg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Aug 2008 08:48:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7392#comment-249683</guid>
		<description>The Guardian/ Observer have an interview with Sir Michael Rawlins of NICE today. He appears to be endeavouring to set some facts  straight about the pharmaceutical companies and their attitude towards NICE...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The Guardian/ Observer have an interview with Sir Michael Rawlins of <span class="caps">NICE</span> today. He appears to be endeavouring to set some facts  straight about the pharmaceutical companies and their attitude towards <span class="caps">NICE</span>&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Saunders</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/08/13/postcode-lotteries/comment-page-1/#comment-249668</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Saunders</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 23:31:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7392#comment-249668</guid>
		<description>Re: Rob (#38)

I&#039;m talking here about a specific case, we&#039;re you&#039;re limited to a set number of treatments smaller than the number of needy patients (perhaps due to supply or organs or drugs, that cannot be increased in the short-term); not allocation of money.

Even so, I would agree that other criteria may come in to play - e.g. QALYs, &#039;fair innings&#039;, whether need is self-inflicted, etc. All I&#039;m saying is that at the end of the day, when you can&#039;t treat all of the equally needy/deserving cases, you need some method of allocation. In that case, I think a lottery would be fair but, despite a long tradition accepting the fairness of lotteries for such distributions, the media fuss around &#039;postcode lotteries&#039; teaches people to think that lotteries are a bad thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Re: Rob (#38)</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m talking here about a specific case, we&#8217;re you&#8217;re limited to a set number of treatments smaller than the number of needy patients (perhaps due to supply or organs or drugs, that cannot be increased in the short-term); not allocation of money.</p>

	<p>Even so, I would agree that other criteria may come in to play &#8211; e.g. <span class="caps">QAL</span>Ys, &#8216;fair innings&#8217;, whether need is self-inflicted, etc. All I&#8217;m saying is that at the end of the day, when you can&#8217;t treat all of the equally needy/deserving cases, you need some method of allocation. In that case, I think a lottery would be fair but, despite a long tradition accepting the fairness of lotteries for such distributions, the media fuss around &#8216;postcode lotteries&#8217; teaches people to think that lotteries are a bad thing.</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/08/13/postcode-lotteries/comment-page-1/#comment-249663</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 21:01:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7392#comment-249663</guid>
		<description>I  wrote a paper on the fair innings principle a few years back.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&amp;_udi=B6V8K-49YD4HB-1&amp;_user=10&amp;_rdoc=1&amp;_fmt=&amp;_orig=search&amp;_sort=d&amp;view=c&amp;_version=1&amp;_urlVersion=0&amp;_userid=10&amp;md5=12045e2069034cdaf249bae687505c25
You can make a plausible argument that someone facing death at 15 is disadvantage relative to someone facing death at 65, and so if we can provide an extension of life to only one of them, the young person should get it. But it turns out to be quite tricky to apply this principle in a consistent way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I  wrote a paper on the fair innings principle a few years back.<br />
<a href="http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&#038;_udi=B6V8K-49YD4HB-1&#038;_user=10&#038;_rdoc=1&#038;_fmt=&#038;_orig=search&#038;_sort=d&#038;view=c&#038;_version=1&#038;_urlVersion=0&#038;_userid=10&#038;md5=12045e2069034cdaf249bae687505c25" rel="nofollow">http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&#038;_udi=B6V8K-49YD4HB-1&#038;_user=10&#038;_rdoc=1&#038;_fmt=&#038;_orig=search&#038;_sort=d&#038;view=c&#038;_version=1&#038;_urlVersion=0&#038;_userid=10&#038;md5=12045e2069034cdaf249bae687505c25</a><br />
You can make a plausible argument that someone facing death at 15 is disadvantage relative to someone facing death at 65, and so if we can provide an extension of life to only one of them, the young person should get it. But it turns out to be quite tricky to apply this principle in a consistent way.</p>
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		<title>By: Fr.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/08/13/postcode-lotteries/comment-page-1/#comment-249649</link>
		<dc:creator>Fr.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 11:16:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7392#comment-249649</guid>
		<description>Martin – Thanks for an excellent discussion on NICE and QALY. I think there is  a problem with your health care expenditure figures, though (see New Statesman comment #2).

You might want to check the last issue of the JRSM (J Roy Soc Med)  for an editorial on NICE that conveys some identical opinions regarding the negativity bias carried by the media towards NICE.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Martin &#8211; Thanks for an excellent discussion on <span class="caps">NICE</span> and <span class="caps">QALY</span>. I think there is  a problem with your health care expenditure figures, though (see New Statesman comment #2).</p>

	<p>You might want to check the last issue of the <span class="caps">JRSM </span>(J Roy Soc Med)  for an editorial on <span class="caps">NICE</span> that conveys some identical opinions regarding the negativity bias carried by the media towards <span class="caps">NICE</span>.</p>
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		<title>By: elliottg</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/08/13/postcode-lotteries/comment-page-1/#comment-249640</link>
		<dc:creator>elliottg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 02:00:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7392#comment-249640</guid>
		<description>Shh, what we aren&#039;t talking about is the fact that NICE is making ridiculously easy decisions.  No reasonable policy (constructed by central planning technocrats or ad hoc local pol) would embrace the prices the drug companies want to charge for minimal benefit.  $150,000 and up prices for QALY are simply unsustainable.  What is needed is negotiating power, not a metric.  Only a national program can provide the right level of power to counter the &quot;your money or your life&quot; message that the drug company implicitly sends.  It&#039;s really simple to reverse a NICE decision by showing better efficacy or lowering the price.  The drug companies have decided it&#039;s easier and cheaper to drum up the fear that the NHS penny pinching is gonna kill people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Shh, what we aren&#8217;t talking about is the fact that <span class="caps">NICE</span> is making ridiculously easy decisions.  No reasonable policy (constructed by central planning technocrats or ad hoc local pol) would embrace the prices the drug companies want to charge for minimal benefit.  $150,000 and up prices for <span class="caps">QALY</span> are simply unsustainable.  What is needed is negotiating power, not a metric.  Only a national program can provide the right level of power to counter the &#8220;your money or your life&#8221; message that the drug company implicitly sends.  It&#8217;s really simple to reverse a <span class="caps">NICE</span> decision by showing better efficacy or lowering the price.  The drug companies have decided it&#8217;s easier and cheaper to drum up the fear that the <span class="caps">NHS</span> penny pinching is gonna kill people.</p>
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		<title>By: pj</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/08/13/postcode-lotteries/comment-page-1/#comment-249629</link>
		<dc:creator>pj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 19:55:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7392#comment-249629</guid>
		<description>Shh, we don&#039;t talk about that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Shh, we don&#8217;t talk about that.</p>
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		<title>By: Jaybird</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/08/13/postcode-lotteries/comment-page-1/#comment-249619</link>
		<dc:creator>Jaybird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 18:11:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7392#comment-249619</guid>
		<description>Why don&#039;t you just raise taxes on the wealthiest to ensure that more people get the care that they need?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Why don&#8217;t you just raise taxes on the wealthiest to ensure that more people get the care that they need?</p>
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		<title>By: sg</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/08/13/postcode-lotteries/comment-page-1/#comment-249607</link>
		<dc:creator>sg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 15:01:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7392#comment-249607</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think age of the patient can be considered because it would breach the NHS charter of equal healthcare according to need. Unless one could somehow redefine &quot;need&quot; to include the number of life years (adjusted or unadjusted) remaining to a person, which would be playing fast and loose with the spirit  of the charter.

Another part of the &#039;postcode lottery&#039; not addressed very often is that there is no apparent reason why the lottery exists, and to the best extent one is able to assess these things, healthcare received is not necessarily closely related to the level of need in the area. So it may actually really be a &#039;lottery&#039;, and this is generally not good. It&#039;s a sign either of inequality in an unobserved variable (and British researchers still haven&#039;t clearly established what that variable is, though it&#039;s almost certainly got an element of wealth to it...) or local inefficiencies, also so far relatively unexplained. Neither situation is commendable, though as a research exercise once we have pinned down the causes the local variation will be very useful in enabling us to improve efficiency, as I think Daniel was observing in his article on rape clearance rates.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I don&#8217;t think age of the patient can be considered because it would breach the <span class="caps">NHS</span> charter of equal healthcare according to need. Unless one could somehow redefine &#8220;need&#8221; to include the number of life years (adjusted or unadjusted) remaining to a person, which would be playing fast and loose with the spirit  of the charter.</p>

	<p>Another part of the &#8216;postcode lottery&#8217; not addressed very often is that there is no apparent reason why the lottery exists, and to the best extent one is able to assess these things, healthcare received is not necessarily closely related to the level of need in the area. So it may actually really be a &#8216;lottery&#8217;, and this is generally not good. It&#8217;s a sign either of inequality in an unobserved variable (and British researchers still haven&#8217;t clearly established what that variable is, though it&#8217;s almost certainly got an element of wealth to it&#8230;) or local inefficiencies, also so far relatively unexplained. Neither situation is commendable, though as a research exercise once we have pinned down the causes the local variation will be very useful in enabling us to improve efficiency, as I think Daniel was observing in his article on rape clearance rates.</p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/08/13/postcode-lotteries/comment-page-1/#comment-249602</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 13:49:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7392#comment-249602</guid>
		<description>I suppose I was thinking of an arrangement where I insure against the possibility of a one-off event in exchange for a one-off payment...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I suppose I was thinking of an arrangement where I insure against the possibility of a one-off event in exchange for a one-off payment&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: dsquared</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/08/13/postcode-lotteries/comment-page-1/#comment-249599</link>
		<dc:creator>dsquared</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 13:31:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7392#comment-249599</guid>
		<description>Have to do a lot of tinkering with that example, because obviously in the one case the insurer would get 20 years of premiums and in the other case, 60 years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Have to do a lot of tinkering with that example, because obviously in the one case the insurer would get 20 years of premiums and in the other case, 60 years.</p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/08/13/postcode-lotteries/comment-page-1/#comment-249596</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 13:15:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7392#comment-249596</guid>
		<description>Maybe one way into this issue to to think about what you yourself would do if you were given the choice between insuring against a life-threatening medical emergency that could strike you (with equal probability, let&#039;s say) at the age of 20 or at age of 60. If you were in a position to insure against either, but not both, and the insurance you were able to buy would cover the costs of life-saving treatment, which policy would you choose? Is the choice a difficult one or a straightforward one?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Maybe one way into this issue to to think about what you yourself would do if you were given the choice between insuring against a life-threatening medical emergency that could strike you (with equal probability, let&#8217;s say) at the age of 20 or at age of 60. If you were in a position to insure against either, but not both, and the insurance you were able to buy would cover the costs of life-saving treatment, which policy would you choose? Is the choice a difficult one or a straightforward one?</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/08/13/postcode-lotteries/comment-page-1/#comment-249593</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 13:01:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7392#comment-249593</guid>
		<description>&quot;I think that if we couldn’t fund treatment for everyone, and there’s no way to divide it (half a course of treatment does no good), then allocating treatment by a lottery – properly random, not based on postcodes – would be fair.&quot;

This seems to me obviously wrong, at least if there is to be no rationing and standardising process that occurs first. Let&#039;s say we have a fixed budget, and we run a lottery the winner of which gets to pick a medical treatment until we run out of money. Inevitably, we are going to end up treating trivial complaints before serious ones. That strikes me as clearly unfair: it is not fair that part of a limited medical budget goes to fund, say, laser eye surgery to correct slight short-sightedness when someone could be cured of some life-threatening disease instead. So, for the claim to be true, it has to be the case that some process of rationing and standardisation goes on. It has to be lotteries amongst like cases, but that requires decisions about what like cases are, and there have to be decisions about which sets of like cases to fund and how much to fund them. Otherwise, we will get objectionable cases of people being funded for trivial interventions when the money could provide others with vital and cost-effective care. Under that set of circumstances, lotteries could be fair, but that&#039;s the set of circumstances we have, effectively, where an arbitrary factor, under certain constraints, sets what care is available. So I don&#039;t see why &#039;the postcode lottery&#039; maligns lotteries either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;I think that if we couldn&#8217;t fund treatment for everyone, and there&#8217;s no way to divide it (half a course of treatment does no good), then allocating treatment by a lottery &#8211; properly random, not based on postcodes &#8211; would be fair.&#8221;</p>

	<p>This seems to me obviously wrong, at least if there is to be no rationing and standardising process that occurs first. Let&#8217;s say we have a fixed budget, and we run a lottery the winner of which gets to pick a medical treatment until we run out of money. Inevitably, we are going to end up treating trivial complaints before serious ones. That strikes me as clearly unfair: it is not fair that part of a limited medical budget goes to fund, say, laser eye surgery to correct slight short-sightedness when someone could be cured of some life-threatening disease instead. So, for the claim to be true, it has to be the case that some process of rationing and standardisation goes on. It has to be lotteries amongst like cases, but that requires decisions about what like cases are, and there have to be decisions about which sets of like cases to fund and how much to fund them. Otherwise, we will get objectionable cases of people being funded for trivial interventions when the money could provide others with vital and cost-effective care. Under that set of circumstances, lotteries could be fair, but that&#8217;s the set of circumstances we have, effectively, where an arbitrary factor, under certain constraints, sets what care is available. So I don&#8217;t see why &#8216;the postcode lottery&#8217; maligns lotteries either.</p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/08/13/postcode-lotteries/comment-page-1/#comment-249591</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:38:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7392#comment-249591</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I retrospectively wish I hadn’t apologised for “technocratic central planners” in a footnote.&lt;/i&gt;

Maybe you should take the gloves off and up to it &quot;unelected, unaccountable pen-pushers&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>I retrospectively wish I hadn&#8217;t apologised for &#8220;technocratic central planners&#8221; in a footnote.</i></p>

	<p>Maybe you should take the gloves off and up to it &#8220;unelected, unaccountable pen-pushers&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: pj</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/08/13/postcode-lotteries/comment-page-1/#comment-249590</link>
		<dc:creator>pj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:34:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7392#comment-249590</guid>
		<description>Alternatively, Nich, will they increase prices to fall just a little under the NICE threshold because they now know what the NHS is willing to pay.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Alternatively, Nich, will they increase prices to fall just a little under the <span class="caps">NICE</span> threshold because they now know what the <span class="caps">NHS</span> is willing to pay.</p>
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