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	<title>Comments on: Special issue on ideal and non-ideal theories of justice</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/08/15/special-issue-on-ideal-and-non-ideal-theories-of-justice/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/08/15/special-issue-on-ideal-and-non-ideal-theories-of-justice/comment-page-1/#comment-249874</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 22:21:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7431#comment-249874</guid>
		<description>$15 including shipping is a nice price. It would probably cost you more than that to print the PDFs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>$15 including shipping is a nice price. It would probably cost you more than that to print the PDFs.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: djw</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/08/15/special-issue-on-ideal-and-non-ideal-theories-of-justice/comment-page-1/#comment-249841</link>
		<dc:creator>djw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 16:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7431#comment-249841</guid>
		<description>Of course, by the standards of philosophy journals, this is probably about as cheap as they get. I make a point of sending pdf attachments of journal articles to people who want them but don&#039;t have access; the system is ridiculous and awful but those of us with access can make it better by being generous.

geo, that&#039;s a pretty standard method for a lot of moral/political philosophers, but of course it only gets you so far. Sometimes it works better in the resverse direction, to demonstrate that principles that sound reasonable and compelling lead to bizarre moral judgments no one would accept. That doesn&#039;t finish the job of refuting that view, of course, but it can help stimulate thought on what might be wrong with the proposed principle after all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Of course, by the standards of philosophy journals, this is probably about as cheap as they get. I make a point of sending pdf attachments of journal articles to people who want them but don&#8217;t have access; the system is ridiculous and awful but those of us with access can make it better by being generous.</p>

	<p>geo, that&#8217;s a pretty standard method for a lot of moral/political philosophers, but of course it only gets you so far. Sometimes it works better in the resverse direction, to demonstrate that principles that sound reasonable and compelling lead to bizarre moral judgments no one would accept. That doesn&#8217;t finish the job of refuting that view, of course, but it can help stimulate thought on what might be wrong with the proposed principle after all.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/08/15/special-issue-on-ideal-and-non-ideal-theories-of-justice/comment-page-1/#comment-249798</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 08:43:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7431#comment-249798</guid>
		<description>And that&#039;s why I love the internet...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>And that&#8217;s why I love the internet&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: A mere 10 dollars</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/08/15/special-issue-on-ideal-and-non-ideal-theories-of-justice/comment-page-1/#comment-249773</link>
		<dc:creator>A mere 10 dollars</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 23:33:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7431#comment-249773</guid>
		<description>Come on, why isn&#039;t this journal open access?  As someone who struggles to do research at a university that can&#039;t afford resources I need, I can&#039;t believe scholars keep giving up their work to journals to subsidize the rentiers who scoop up all the profits from the current system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Come on, why isn&#8217;t this journal open access?  As someone who struggles to do research at a university that can&#8217;t afford resources I need, I can&#8217;t believe scholars keep giving up their work to journals to subsidize the rentiers who scoop up all the profits from the current system.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: roy belmont</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/08/15/special-issue-on-ideal-and-non-ideal-theories-of-justice/comment-page-1/#comment-249769</link>
		<dc:creator>roy belmont</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 21:54:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7431#comment-249769</guid>
		<description>Well hey, Dave-whom-I&#039;m-assuming-is-the-Dave-who-is-not-the-Dave-who-called-Yeats-a-dead-reactionary-poet, the latter Dave henceforward to be known as DwcYadrp. 
Since the only distinction between either Dave so far available to me is that Yeatsian calumny, I&#039;m afraid I haven&#039;t much of  a sense of where to put that thought, the &lt;i&gt;&quot;that I would make such a shallow judgment of a major literary figure&quot;&lt;/i&gt; thought, whether alongside other, previous, more objectionable unprincipled statements from the first-encountered Dave, whether yet DwcYadrp and DwintDwcYadrp, contradistinct from the less perspicacious Dave, or revelatory of heretofore hidden reserves of integrity in the more dubious Dave, and therefore in its own category.
You see the dilemma, I&#039;m sure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well hey, Dave-whom-I&#8217;m-assuming-is-the-Dave-who-is-not-the-Dave-who-called-Yeats-a-dead-reactionary-poet, the latter Dave henceforward to be known as DwcYadrp.<br />
Since the only distinction between either Dave so far available to me is that Yeatsian calumny, I&#8217;m afraid I haven&#8217;t much of  a sense of where to put that thought, the <i>&#8220;that I would make such a shallow judgment of a major literary figure&#8221;</i> thought, whether alongside other, previous, more objectionable unprincipled statements from the first-encountered Dave, whether yet DwcYadrp and DwintDwcYadrp, contradistinct from the less perspicacious Dave, or revelatory of heretofore hidden reserves of integrity in the more dubious Dave, and therefore in its own category.<br />
You see the dilemma, I&#8217;m sure.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/08/15/special-issue-on-ideal-and-non-ideal-theories-of-justice/comment-page-1/#comment-249760</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 19:26:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7431#comment-249760</guid>
		<description>Indeed, I should hate to have you think that I would make such a shallow judgment of a major literary figure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Indeed, I should hate to have you think that I would make such a shallow judgment of a major literary figure.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Roy Belmont</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/08/15/special-issue-on-ideal-and-non-ideal-theories-of-justice/comment-page-1/#comment-249759</link>
		<dc:creator>Roy Belmont</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 19:10:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7431#comment-249759</guid>
		<description>Well hey, thanks for that clarification, Dave-who-is-not-the-Dave-that called-Yeats-a-dead-reactionary-poet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well hey, thanks for that clarification, Dave-who-is-not-the-Dave-that called-Yeats-a-dead-reactionary-poet.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/08/15/special-issue-on-ideal-and-non-ideal-theories-of-justice/comment-page-1/#comment-249754</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 17:19:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7431#comment-249754</guid>
		<description>For the record, there are clearly two Daves getting at you, Roy. That wasn&#039;t me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>For the record, there are clearly two Daves getting at you, Roy. That wasn&#8217;t me.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/08/15/special-issue-on-ideal-and-non-ideal-theories-of-justice/comment-page-1/#comment-249753</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 17:14:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7431#comment-249753</guid>
		<description>What better way to end a discussion about political philosophy than a &#039;retort-via-dead-reactionary-poet.&#039;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>What better way to end a discussion about political philosophy than a &#8216;retort-via-dead-reactionary-poet.&#8217;</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Roy Belmont</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/08/15/special-issue-on-ideal-and-non-ideal-theories-of-justice/comment-page-1/#comment-249696</link>
		<dc:creator>Roy Belmont</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Aug 2008 19:48:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7431#comment-249696</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Tom O&#039;Roughley&lt;/i&gt;

‘Though logic-choppers rule the town,
And every man and maid and boy
Has marked a distant object down,
An aimless joy is a pure joy,’
Or so did Tom O’Roughley say
That saw the surges running by.
‘And wisdom is a butterfly
And not a gloomy bird of prey.

‘If little planned is little sinned
But little need the grave distress.
What’s dying but a second wind?
How but in zig-zag wantonness
Could trumpeter Michael be so brave?’
Or something of that sort he said,
‘And if my dearest friend were dead
I’d dance a measure on his grave.’

W.B Yeats</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Tom O&#8217;Roughley</i></p>

	<p>&#8216;Though logic-choppers rule the town,<br />
And every man and maid and boy<br />
Has marked a distant object down,<br />
An aimless joy is a pure joy,&#8217;<br />
Or so did Tom O&#8217;Roughley say<br />
That saw the surges running by.<br />
&#8216;And wisdom is a butterfly<br />
And not a gloomy bird of prey.</p>

	<p>&#8216;If little planned is little sinned<br />
But little need the grave distress.<br />
What&#8217;s dying but a second wind?<br />
How but in zig-zag wantonness<br />
Could trumpeter Michael be so brave?&#8217;<br />
Or something of that sort he said,<br />
&#8216;And if my dearest friend were dead<br />
I&#8217;d dance a measure on his grave.&#8217;</p>

	<p>W.B Yeats</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/08/15/special-issue-on-ideal-and-non-ideal-theories-of-justice/comment-page-1/#comment-249695</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Aug 2008 19:20:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7431#comment-249695</guid>
		<description>This website used to be able to detect and reject a double-post; decay and fall everywhere.

And no, plenty of people would say that it’s unjust to take from (coerce) an investment bank and give to children, that’s the whole point.

What’s striking here is that the two groups holding these diametrically opposite views on ‘justice’ (must take a little from the bank – mustn’t take anything from the bank) are of the same general persuasion – liberals. Like I said before: minor doctrinal disagreements, yet their understandings of ‘justice’ are dramatically different. And now think about liberals vs. soc1al1sts (who would simply expropriate the bank) or nationalists (who don’t care about any children outside their country/race/ethnicity), or countless combinations of various degrees of these main doctrines.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>This website used to be able to detect and reject a double-post; decay and fall everywhere.</p>

	<p>And no, plenty of people would say that it&#8217;s unjust to take from (coerce) an investment bank and give to children, that&#8217;s the whole point.</p>

	<p>What&#8217;s striking here is that the two groups holding these diametrically opposite views on &#8216;justice&#8217; (must take a little from the bank &#8211; mustn&#8217;t take anything from the bank) are of the same general persuasion &#8211; liberals. Like I said before: minor doctrinal disagreements, yet their understandings of &#8216;justice&#8217; are dramatically different. And now think about liberals vs. soc1al1sts (who would simply expropriate the bank) or nationalists (who don&#8217;t care about any children outside their country/race/ethnicity), or countless combinations of various degrees of these main doctrines.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/08/15/special-issue-on-ideal-and-non-ideal-theories-of-justice/comment-page-1/#comment-249694</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Aug 2008 19:19:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7431#comment-249694</guid>
		<description>This website used to be able to detect and reject a double-post; decay and fall everywhere.

And no, plenty of people would say that it&#039;s unjust to take from (coerce) an investment bank and give to children, that&#039;s the whole point. 

What&#039;s striking here is that the two groups holding these diametrically opposite views on &#039;justice&#039; (must take a little from the bank - mustn&#039;t take anything from the bank) are of the same general persuasion - liberals. Like I said before: minor doctrinal disagreements, yet their understandings of &#039;justice&#039; are dramatically different. And now think about liberals vs. socialists (who would simply expropriate the bank) or nationalists (who don&#039;t care about any children outside their country/race/ethnicity), or countless combinations of various degrees of these main doctrines.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>This website used to be able to detect and reject a double-post; decay and fall everywhere.</p>

	<p>And no, plenty of people would say that it&#8217;s unjust to take from (coerce) an investment bank and give to children, that&#8217;s the whole point.</p>

	<p>What&#8217;s striking here is that the two groups holding these diametrically opposite views on &#8216;justice&#8217; (must take a little from the bank &#8211; mustn&#8217;t take anything from the bank) are of the same general persuasion &#8211; liberals. Like I said before: minor doctrinal disagreements, yet their understandings of &#8216;justice&#8217; are dramatically different. And now think about liberals vs. socialists (who would simply expropriate the bank) or nationalists (who don&#8217;t care about any children outside their country/race/ethnicity), or countless combinations of various degrees of these main doctrines.</p>
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		<title>By: geo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/08/15/special-issue-on-ideal-and-non-ideal-theories-of-justice/comment-page-1/#comment-249692</link>
		<dc:creator>geo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Aug 2008 18:38:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7431#comment-249692</guid>
		<description>Sorry, hit the &quot;Submit&quot; button twice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Sorry, hit the &#8220;Submit&#8221; button twice.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: geo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/08/15/special-issue-on-ideal-and-non-ideal-theories-of-justice/comment-page-1/#comment-249691</link>
		<dc:creator>geo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Aug 2008 18:38:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7431#comment-249691</guid>
		<description>What about approaching the definition of justice a little more inductively? As in: (nearly) all of us agree that A is unjust; let&#039;s compare our reasons for thinking so. For example: I&#039;m currently bilious about the fact that hundreds of millions of children sleep in houses without windows or screens, so a million or two of them die each year of malaria, while the Christmas bonuses handed out at a single Wall Street investment bank would easily cover the expense of insecticide-treated screens for all of them. Is this unjust? 

Well, would it be unjust to let your child die for lack of a tiny expenditure if you had pots of money? Of course. Your sister&#039;s child? Your neighbor&#039;s child? A child across town? Across the country? Across the world? In each case, why? I know there are lots more steps to the rich world&#039;s failure to provide those screens, but wouldn&#039;t proceeding stepwise like this be useful? Or is this what moral philosophers commonly do?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>What about approaching the definition of justice a little more inductively? As in: (nearly) all of us agree that A is unjust; let&#8217;s compare our reasons for thinking so. For example: I&#8217;m currently bilious about the fact that hundreds of millions of children sleep in houses without windows or screens, so a million or two of them die each year of malaria, while the Christmas bonuses handed out at a single Wall Street investment bank would easily cover the expense of insecticide-treated screens for all of them. Is this unjust?</p>

	<p>Well, would it be unjust to let your child die for lack of a tiny expenditure if you had pots of money? Of course. Your sister&#8217;s child? Your neighbor&#8217;s child? A child across town? Across the country? Across the world? In each case, why? I know there are lots more steps to the rich world&#8217;s failure to provide those screens, but wouldn&#8217;t proceeding stepwise like this be useful? Or is this what moral philosophers commonly do?</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: geo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/08/15/special-issue-on-ideal-and-non-ideal-theories-of-justice/comment-page-1/#comment-249690</link>
		<dc:creator>geo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Aug 2008 18:37:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7431#comment-249690</guid>
		<description>What about approaching the definition of justice a little more inductively? As in: (nearly) all of us agree that A is unjust; let&#039;s compare our reasons for thinking so. For example: I&#039;m currently bilious about the fact that hundreds of millions of children sleep in houses without windows or screens, so a million or two of them die each year of malaria, while the Christmas bonuses handed out at a single Wall Street investment bank would easily cover the expense of insecticide-treated screens for all of them. Is this unjust? 

Well, would it be unjust to let your child die for lack of a tiny expenditure if you had pots of money? Of course. Your sister&#039;s child? Your neighbor&#039;s child? A child across town? Across the country? Across the world? In each case, why? I know there are lots more steps to the rich world&#039;s failure to provide those screens, but wouldn&#039;t proceeding stepwise like this be useful? Or is this what moral philosophers commonly do?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>What about approaching the definition of justice a little more inductively? As in: (nearly) all of us agree that A is unjust; let&#8217;s compare our reasons for thinking so. For example: I&#8217;m currently bilious about the fact that hundreds of millions of children sleep in houses without windows or screens, so a million or two of them die each year of malaria, while the Christmas bonuses handed out at a single Wall Street investment bank would easily cover the expense of insecticide-treated screens for all of them. Is this unjust?</p>

	<p>Well, would it be unjust to let your child die for lack of a tiny expenditure if you had pots of money? Of course. Your sister&#8217;s child? Your neighbor&#8217;s child? A child across town? Across the country? Across the world? In each case, why? I know there are lots more steps to the rich world&#8217;s failure to provide those screens, but wouldn&#8217;t proceeding stepwise like this be useful? Or is this what moral philosophers commonly do?</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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