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	<title>Comments on: Fonts and Faces</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/02/fonts-and-faces/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: bab</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/02/fonts-and-faces/comment-page-1/#comment-251237</link>
		<dc:creator>bab</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Sep 2008 17:38:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7598#comment-251237</guid>
		<description>deliasmith,

I share your snobbery, believe me (and to let authors have &lt;i&gt;any&lt;/i&gt; input on design constitutes publisher malpractice). Nonetheless, I&#039;d rather live in a hyper-DIY cultural world than be relegated to, eg, major-label bands,  studio movies, network television, MSM newsgathering, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>deliasmith,</p>

	<p>I share your snobbery, believe me (and to let authors have <i>any</i> input on design constitutes publisher malpractice). Nonetheless, I&#8217;d rather live in a hyper-DIY cultural world than be relegated to, eg, major-label bands,  studio movies, network television, <span class="caps">MSM</span> newsgathering, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Zack</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/02/fonts-and-faces/comment-page-1/#comment-251111</link>
		<dc:creator>Zack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 01:41:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7598#comment-251111</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;felix culpa&quot;&gt;...what is it with the Brits and their yews?
Honour, harbour, flavour, and cetera.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I don&#039;t know how the letters got into the words in the first place, but they were taken out of Am.Eng. in what was, as far as I know, the only successful deliberate spelling reform of that language, ever:  Noah Webster dropped them in his 1806 &lt;i&gt;Compendious Dictionary of the English Language&lt;/i&gt; and somehow he got everyone to go along with it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><blockquote cite="felix culpa">&#8230;what is it with the Brits and their yews?<br />
Honour, harbour, flavour, and cetera.</blockquote></p>

	<p>I don&#8217;t know how the letters got into the words in the first place, but they were taken out of Am.Eng. in what was, as far as I know, the only successful deliberate spelling reform of that language, ever:  Noah Webster dropped them in his 1806 <i>Compendious Dictionary of the English Language</i> and somehow he got everyone to go along with it.</p>
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		<title>By: felix culpa</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/02/fonts-and-faces/comment-page-1/#comment-251108</link>
		<dc:creator>felix culpa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 00:39:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7598#comment-251108</guid>
		<description>I suppose it might be something every civilized person should know, but with all due respect and admiration for Lord Peter as an emblem of England’s finest (re Sayers), what is it with the Brits and their yews?
Honour, harbour, flavour, and cetera.
As a native-born American (apologies to the other residents of the Americas) living in Canada for forty years, I follow the local custom, taken from British usage: That is, in writing for domestic consumption or in my blog(s). In my comments on blogs, I use American, since it’s largely the native tongue in blogland. Seems  appropriate and courteous and non-confrontational. Canajan, eh?

Anyway, I know it’s due to the Norman invasion and all, but is that adequate to explain it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I suppose it might be something every civilized person should know, but with all due respect and admiration for Lord Peter as an emblem of England&#8217;s finest (re Sayers), what is it with the Brits and their yews?<br />
Honour, harbour, flavour, and cetera.<br />
As a native-born American (apologies to the other residents of the Americas) living in Canada for forty years, I follow the local custom, taken from British usage: That is, in writing for domestic consumption or in my blog(s). In my comments on blogs, I use American, since it&#8217;s largely the native tongue in blogland. Seems  appropriate and courteous and non-confrontational. Canajan, eh?</p>

	<p>Anyway, I know it&#8217;s due to the Norman invasion and all, but is that adequate to explain it?</p>
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		<title>By: deliasmith</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/02/fonts-and-faces/comment-page-1/#comment-251069</link>
		<dc:creator>deliasmith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2008 16:07:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7598#comment-251069</guid>
		<description>BAB@ 10: &lt;i&gt;The Handristry quote is poignant. Many craftspeople bemoan the fact that mastering handskills is no longer necessary to become a successful designer. This seems like a conservative’s limited view to me; democratization of design certainly results in a lot of crap, but it also opens us to imaginations that otherwise may never have had a chance to contribute.&lt;/i&gt;

As a publishing professional working in an organisation where authors have the last word on design I&#039;d say that the comma after &#039;crap&#039; should be changed to a full point, and the last 17 words deleted.

In support of my case I cite Comic Sans</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><span class="caps">BAB</span>@ 10: <i>The Handristry quote is poignant. Many craftspeople bemoan the fact that mastering handskills is no longer necessary to become a successful designer. This seems like a conservative&#8217;s limited view to me; democratization of design certainly results in a lot of crap, but it also opens us to imaginations that otherwise may never have had a chance to contribute.</i></p>

	<p>As a publishing professional working in an organisation where authors have the last word on design I&#8217;d say that the comma after &#8216;crap&#8217; should be changed to a full point, and the last 17 words deleted.</p>

	<p>In support of my case I cite Comic Sans</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: don't quote me on this</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/02/fonts-and-faces/comment-page-1/#comment-251064</link>
		<dc:creator>don't quote me on this</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2008 14:14:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7598#comment-251064</guid>
		<description>Yes, and let&#039;s talk leading and line spacing, too!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Yes, and let&#8217;s talk leading and line spacing, too!</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Kinross</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/02/fonts-and-faces/comment-page-1/#comment-251061</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Kinross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Sep 2008 10:31:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7598#comment-251061</guid>
		<description>This &#039;under the hood of computers&#039; description is painstaking, but it doesn&#039;t go the whole way of the old sense of &#039;font (&#039;fount&#039;). The old metal definition of the term refers to a definite size of the character set: 18 pt Helvetica Bold was a different font from 24 pt Helvetica Bold (and in the constrained world of metal type, 19 pt and 21 pt and 23 pt type just didn&#039;t exist; I don&#039;t believe much 22 pt type was made either). 
A font of &#039;computer type&#039; can be made to show at any size, including 21.397 pt.
(But what does this size definition actually refer to? We could open that can of worms next.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>This &#8216;under the hood of computers&#8217; description is painstaking, but it doesn&#8217;t go the whole way of the old sense of &#8216;font (&#8216;fount&#8217;). The old metal definition of the term refers to a definite size of the character set: 18 pt Helvetica Bold was a different font from 24 pt Helvetica Bold (and in the constrained world of metal type, 19 pt and 21 pt and 23 pt type just didn&#8217;t exist; I don&#8217;t believe much 22 pt type was made either).<br />
A font of &#8216;computer type&#8217; can be made to show at any size, including 21.397 pt.<br />
(But what does this size definition actually refer to? We could open that can of worms next.)</p>
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		<title>By: soru</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/02/fonts-and-faces/comment-page-1/#comment-251041</link>
		<dc:creator>soru</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 21:42:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7598#comment-251041</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;‘Font’ used to have a very precise meaning … . It used to refer to the character set (= all the characters, yes punctuation, numerals, as well as letters) of a typeface at any particular size and any particular style&lt;/i&gt;

Under the hood of computers, it still has that meaning, e.g.:

http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.3/docs/api/java/awt/Font.html
&lt;i&gt;There are three different names that you can get from a Font object. The logical font name is the same as that used by java.awt.Font in JDK 1.1 and earlier releases. The font face name, or just font name for short, is the name of a particular font face, like Helvetica Bold. The family name is the name of the font family that determines the typographic design across several faces, like Helvetica. The font face name is the one that should be used to specify fonts. This name signifies actual fonts in the host system, and does not identify font names with the shape of font characters as the logical font name does.&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>&#8216;Font&#8217; used to have a very precise meaning &#8230; . It used to refer to the character set (= all the characters, yes punctuation, numerals, as well as letters) of a typeface at any particular size and any particular style</i></p>

	<p>Under the hood of computers, it still has that meaning, e.g.:</p>

	<p><a href="http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.3/docs/api/java/awt/Font.html" rel="nofollow">http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.3/docs/api/java/awt/Font.html</a><br />
<i>There are three different names that you can get from a Font object. The logical font name is the same as that used by java.awt.Font in <span class="caps">JDK 1</span>.1 and earlier releases. The font face name, or just font name for short, is the name of a particular font face, like Helvetica Bold. The family name is the name of the font family that determines the typographic design across several faces, like Helvetica. The font face name is the one that should be used to specify fonts. This name signifies actual fonts in the host system, and does not identify font names with the shape of font characters as the logical font name does.</i></p>
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		<title>By: ajay</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/02/fonts-and-faces/comment-page-1/#comment-251017</link>
		<dc:creator>ajay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 15:55:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7598#comment-251017</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Yes, ‘fount’ was the UK-British spelling; North Americans have tended to spell it ‘font’. When, in the 1980s, the North American software industry (think Adobe, Apple, Microsoft) gobbled up typography, of course they spelled the word ‘font’.&lt;/i&gt;

Yes, I thought it might be something like that. As a proud (or &quot;prod&quot;) speaker of British English,  I will start writing &quot;fount&quot; forthwith. (Or even fourthwith.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Yes, &#8216;fount&#8217; was the UK-British spelling; North Americans have tended to spell it &#8216;font&#8217;. When, in the 1980s, the North American software industry (think Adobe, Apple, Microsoft) gobbled up typography, of course they spelled the word &#8216;font&#8217;.</i></p>

	<p>Yes, I thought it might be something like that. As a proud (or &#8220;prod&#8221;) speaker of British English,  I will start writing &#8220;fount&#8221; forthwith. (Or even fourthwith.)</p>
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		<title>By: richard</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/02/fonts-and-faces/comment-page-1/#comment-251013</link>
		<dc:creator>richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 15:16:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7598#comment-251013</guid>
		<description>I grew up in a design studio (literally) where we talked about typefaces (which we roughed in Letraset). When I got to college it was all computers and fonts, a word I had never encountered before. I just figured it was American.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I grew up in a design studio (literally) where we talked about typefaces (which we roughed in Letraset). When I got to college it was all computers and fonts, a word I had never encountered before. I just figured it was American.</p>
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		<title>By: bab</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/02/fonts-and-faces/comment-page-1/#comment-251011</link>
		<dc:creator>bab</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 15:03:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7598#comment-251011</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;‘Font’ used to have a very precise meaning ... . It used to refer to the character set (= all the characters, yes punctuation, numerals, as well as letters) of a typeface at any particular size and any particular style ... . &lt;/i&gt;

And, of course, if you&#039;re getting really picky, it&#039;s not &quot;all the characters,&quot; it&#039;s a certain number of each character based on the foundry&#039;s anticipation of the printer&#039;s frequency of use. (And special characters sometimes did not even come with a standard font.)

The Handristry quote is poignant. Many craftspeople bemoan the fact that mastering handskills is no longer necessary to become a successful designer. This seems like a conservative&#039;s limited view to me; democratization of design certainly results in a lot of crap, but it also opens us to imaginations that otherwise may never have had a chance to contribute.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>&#8216;Font&#8217; used to have a very precise meaning &#8230; . It used to refer to the character set (= all the characters, yes punctuation, numerals, as well as letters) of a typeface at any particular size and any particular style &#8230; . </i></p>

	<p>And, of course, if you&#8217;re getting really picky, it&#8217;s not &#8220;all the characters,&#8221; it&#8217;s a certain number of each character based on the foundry&#8217;s anticipation of the printer&#8217;s frequency of use. (And special characters sometimes did not even come with a standard font.)</p>

	<p>The Handristry quote is poignant. Many craftspeople bemoan the fact that mastering handskills is no longer necessary to become a successful designer. This seems like a conservative&#8217;s limited view to me; democratization of design certainly results in a lot of crap, but it also opens us to imaginations that otherwise may never have had a chance to contribute.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Kinross</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/02/fonts-and-faces/comment-page-1/#comment-251009</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Kinross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 14:51:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7598#comment-251009</guid>
		<description>Yes, &#039;fount&#039; was the UK-British spelling; North Americans have tended to spell it &#039;font&#039;. When, in the 1980s, the North American software industry (think Adobe, Apple, Microsoft) gobbled up typography, of course they spelled the word &#039;font&#039;.
I think the idea behind this Anglo-American word &#039;fount&#039;/&#039;font&#039; was of flow and flowing: metal was poured into a mould (of a given size) to make a set of characters.
Here is Philip Gaskell (&lt;i&gt;New introduction to bibliography&lt;/i&gt;, Oxford University Press, 1972), with a definition of the term:
&#039;A fount of type was a set of letters and other symbols in which each sort [= character, maybe glyph] was supplied in approximate proportion to its frequency of use, all being of one body-size and design.&#039; (Read his whole discussion, pp. 33 and following.)
Gaskell was  talking about metal type; and he uses the past tense in 1972: his book was set by photocomposition, which was already crumbling the metal type world. 
The design on the face of these pieces of type led us to speak about the typeface – the design of a set of characters.
Clearer than this, I don&#039;t think it&#039;s possible to be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Yes, &#8216;fount&#8217; was the UK-British spelling; North Americans have tended to spell it &#8216;font&#8217;. When, in the 1980s, the North American software industry (think Adobe, Apple, Microsoft) gobbled up typography, of course they spelled the word &#8216;font&#8217;.<br />
I think the idea behind this Anglo-American word &#8216;fount&#8217;/&#8217;font&#8217; was of flow and flowing: metal was poured into a mould (of a given size) to make a set of characters.<br />
Here is Philip Gaskell (<i>New introduction to bibliography</i>, Oxford University Press, 1972), with a definition of the term:<br />
&#8216;A fount of type was a set of letters and other symbols in which each sort [= character, maybe glyph] was supplied in approximate proportion to its frequency of use, all being of one body-size and design.&#8217; (Read his whole discussion, pp. 33 and following.)<br />
Gaskell was  talking about metal type; and he uses the past tense in 1972: his book was set by photocomposition, which was already crumbling the metal type world.<br />
The design on the face of these pieces of type led us to speak about the typeface &#8211; the design of a set of characters.<br />
Clearer than this, I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s possible to be.</p>
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		<title>By: ajay</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/02/fonts-and-faces/comment-page-1/#comment-250986</link>
		<dc:creator>ajay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 09:51:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7598#comment-250986</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve come across it spelt &quot;fount&quot; - in, among other places, Dorothy Sayers&#039; &quot;Murder Must Advertise&quot;, where it is used to mean &quot;typeface&quot; in context...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;ve come across it spelt &#8220;fount&#8221; &#8211; in, among other places, Dorothy Sayers&#8217; &#8220;Murder Must Advertise&#8221;, where it is used to mean &#8220;typeface&#8221; in context&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Kinross</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/02/fonts-and-faces/comment-page-1/#comment-250983</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Kinross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 08:33:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7598#comment-250983</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;In case you don’t know: ‘typeface’ is supposed to be the term for any characteristic, alphabetic look (glyphic look, if you want to be picky, because you’ve also got punctuation and numerals &amp; ampersands and such.) Fonts were those pieces of lead from the foundry.&lt;/i&gt;

Your description of ‘typeface’ is sort of, vaguely, roughly on the right lines. 

‘Font’ used to have a very precise meaning, which is why typographers of a certain generation find it hard to accept the new expanded usage for the term. It used to refer to the character set (= all the characters, yes punctuation, numerals, as well as letters) of a typeface at any particular size and any particular style (style here means weight, slope, width, etc). So, 12 pt italic Monotype Baskerville was a font. It had a price, and you could buy just that font. In the days of hand-set type, a font came wrapped in brown paper: a nice smallish packet. 18 pt italic Monotype Baskerville was a different font, and it sold for a different price. 18 pt bold Monotype Baskerville was still another font.

By the way, it’s important to specify the name of the manufacturer: Monotype or Linotype or Stempel, etc. Because their Baskvervilles all looked a bit different from each other: they were different designs.

When the material dimension of type finally disappeared – when type became software, from the mid-1980s onwards – then this thoroughly material term ‘font’ lost its strict meaning, and the term became generalized and began to displace the term ‘typeface’.

Here, as in other departments of life, one can learn from a fully historical, materialist analysis!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>In case you don&#8217;t know: &#8216;typeface&#8217; is supposed to be the term for any characteristic, alphabetic look (glyphic look, if you want to be picky, because you&#8217;ve also got punctuation and numerals &#038; ampersands and such.) Fonts were those pieces of lead from the foundry.</i></p>

	<p>Your description of &#8216;typeface&#8217; is sort of, vaguely, roughly on the right lines.</p>

	<p>&#8216;Font&#8217; used to have a very precise meaning, which is why typographers of a certain generation find it hard to accept the new expanded usage for the term. It used to refer to the character set (= all the characters, yes punctuation, numerals, as well as letters) of a typeface at any particular size and any particular style (style here means weight, slope, width, etc). So, 12 pt italic Monotype Baskerville was a font. It had a price, and you could buy just that font. In the days of hand-set type, a font came wrapped in brown paper: a nice smallish packet. 18 pt italic Monotype Baskerville was a different font, and it sold for a different price. 18 pt bold Monotype Baskerville was still another font.</p>

	<p>By the way, it&#8217;s important to specify the name of the manufacturer: Monotype or Linotype or Stempel, etc. Because their Baskvervilles all looked a bit different from each other: they were different designs.</p>

	<p>When the material dimension of type finally disappeared &#8211; when type became software, from the mid-1980s onwards &#8211; then this thoroughly material term &#8216;font&#8217; lost its strict meaning, and the term became generalized and began to displace the term &#8216;typeface&#8217;.</p>

	<p>Here, as in other departments of life, one can learn from a fully historical, materialist analysis!</p>
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		<title>By: Kieran</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/02/fonts-and-faces/comment-page-1/#comment-250975</link>
		<dc:creator>Kieran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 05:01:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7598#comment-250975</guid>
		<description>Douglas Adams has a word somewhere for the things you pay extra for in craft work -- the rough edges, smudges and broken bits.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Douglas Adams has a word somewhere for the things you pay extra for in craft work&#8212;the rough edges, smudges and broken bits.</p>
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		<title>By: Bloix</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/02/fonts-and-faces/comment-page-1/#comment-250974</link>
		<dc:creator>Bloix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 04:30:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7598#comment-250974</guid>
		<description>The original of William Safire&#039;s last name (he was born with the name you gave him unintentionally -  William Safir) means &quot;scribe.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The original of William Safire&#8217;s last name (he was born with the name you gave him unintentionally &#8211;  William Safir) means &#8220;scribe.&#8221; </p>
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