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	<title>Comments on: Crowdsourcing works!</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/15/crowdsourcing-works/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: lemuel pitkin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/15/crowdsourcing-works/comment-page-1/#comment-252118</link>
		<dc:creator>lemuel pitkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 16:03:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7771#comment-252118</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt; obviously it’s not an economic concept, it’s a socio-economic concept.&lt;/i&gt;

Oh, I agree. And for those who don&#039;t care for Zizek, David Harvey has a very good discussion of the same point in The Limits to Capital.

But there is a &lt;a href=&quot;http://homepage.newschool.edu/~AShaikh/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;segment of heterodoxy&lt;/a&gt; that treats value, as Marx (sometimes) did, in a more formal quantitative way -- the transformation problem and all that. That&#039;s the sort of thing John Q. thinks is a waste of time, I guess -- and I more or less agree, tho I&#039;m not at all sure its imminent extinction is a good thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i> obviously it&#8217;s not an economic concept, it&#8217;s a socio-economic concept.</i></p>

	<p>Oh, I agree. And for those who don&#8217;t care for Zizek, David Harvey has a very good discussion of the same point in The Limits to Capital.</p>

	<p>But there is a <a href="http://homepage.newschool.edu/~AShaikh/" rel="nofollow">segment of heterodoxy</a> that treats value, as Marx (sometimes) did, in a more formal quantitative way&#8212;the transformation problem and all that. That&#8217;s the sort of thing John Q. thinks is a waste of time, I guess&#8212;and I more or less agree, tho I&#8217;m not at all sure its imminent extinction is a good thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/15/crowdsourcing-works/comment-page-1/#comment-252111</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 14:40:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7771#comment-252111</guid>
		<description>Prediction: Lex-Kotsko flame war in 3, 2, 1...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Prediction: Lex-Kotsko flame war in 3, 2, 1&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/15/crowdsourcing-works/comment-page-1/#comment-252087</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 10:54:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7771#comment-252087</guid>
		<description>Heh-heh. What books did &lt;i&gt;you&lt;/i&gt; write, smart ass?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Heh-heh. What books did <i>you</i> write, smart ass?</p>
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		<title>By: Lex</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/15/crowdsourcing-works/comment-page-1/#comment-252085</link>
		<dc:creator>Lex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 10:39:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7771#comment-252085</guid>
		<description>But Zizek has his head so far up his own arse he can see daylight through his teeth, so what&#039;s your point?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>But Zizek has his head so far up his own arse he can see daylight through his teeth, so what&#8217;s your point?</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/15/crowdsourcing-works/comment-page-1/#comment-252075</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 07:40:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7771#comment-252075</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know why you all are so dismissive of the value theory. I&#039;m not an expert, but obviously it&#039;s not an economic concept, it&#039;s a socio-economic concept. I don&#039;t remember the details, but I think in Parallax View Zizek has a convincing one page rundown on the meaning and dialectics of it and it comes out fine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I don&#8217;t know why you all are so dismissive of the value theory. I&#8217;m not an expert, but obviously it&#8217;s not an economic concept, it&#8217;s a socio-economic concept. I don&#8217;t remember the details, but I think in Parallax View Zizek has a convincing one page rundown on the meaning and dialectics of it and it comes out fine.</p>
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		<title>By: lemuel pitkin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/15/crowdsourcing-works/comment-page-1/#comment-252069</link>
		<dc:creator>lemuel pitkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 03:12:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7771#comment-252069</guid>
		<description>Sure one can employ a little snark on behalf of the wounded honor of heterodoxy on Crooked Timber? But truth be told I don&#039;t really disagree with you -- it wasn&#039;t until I got to UMass-Amherst that I learned I wasn&#039;t a Marxist because I&#039;m not interested in value theory.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Sure one can employ a little snark on behalf of the wounded honor of heterodoxy on Crooked Timber? But truth be told I don&#8217;t really disagree with you&#8212;it wasn&#8217;t until I got to UMass-Amherst that I learned I wasn&#8217;t a Marxist because I&#8217;m not interested in value theory.</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/15/crowdsourcing-works/comment-page-1/#comment-252049</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 20:35:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7771#comment-252049</guid>
		<description>Lemuel, I&#039;m at least mildly bemused by this snark. I&#039;ve both written for and been on the board of the &lt;i&gt;Journal of Australian Political Economy&lt;/i&gt; which is the closest Oz equivalent to RRPE.  

It&#039;s true that I think that &lt;b&gt;methodological&lt;/b&gt; heterodoxy is mostly a waste of time, and a distraction from matters of actual concern. By contrast,  Nilsson&#039;s use of standard neoclassical economics (he cites Econometrica, for example)  to derive leftwing political conclusions is exactly the kind of thing I try to do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Lemuel, I&#8217;m at least mildly bemused by this snark. I&#8217;ve both written for and been on the board of the <i>Journal of Australian Political Economy</i> which is the closest Oz equivalent to <span class="caps">RRPE</span>.</p>

	<p>It&#8217;s true that I think that <b>methodological</b> heterodoxy is mostly a waste of time, and a distraction from matters of actual concern. By contrast,  Nilsson&#8217;s use of standard neoclassical economics (he cites Econometrica, for example)  to derive leftwing political conclusions is exactly the kind of thing I try to do.</p>
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		<title>By: Ted</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/15/crowdsourcing-works/comment-page-1/#comment-252044</link>
		<dc:creator>Ted</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 20:08:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7771#comment-252044</guid>
		<description>McCain just said that Obama didn&#039;t call Palin a pig, so that would appear to settle that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>McCain just said that Obama didn&#8217;t call Palin a pig, so that would appear to settle that.</p>
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		<title>By: lemuel pitkin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/15/crowdsourcing-works/comment-page-1/#comment-252023</link>
		<dc:creator>lemuel pitkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 17:12:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7771#comment-252023</guid>
		<description>Oh, and another important point is that a large and increasing fraction of personal income goes to debt payments rather than purchases of goods and services. So deflating personal income by the CPI exaggerates the actual improvement in living standards. 

There was a &lt;a href=&quot;http://economics.csusb.edu/faculty/nilsson/personal/Professional/Gordon%20Paper.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;very good article&lt;/a&gt; on this by Eric Nilsson a few years back. (In RRPE, so John Q. won&#039;t want to read it, but others may find it interesting.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Oh, and another important point is that a large and increasing fraction of personal income goes to debt payments rather than purchases of goods and services. So deflating personal income by the <span class="caps">CPI</span> exaggerates the actual improvement in living standards.</p>

	<p>There was a <a href="http://economics.csusb.edu/faculty/nilsson/personal/Professional/Gordon%20Paper.pdf" rel="nofollow">very good article</a> on this by Eric Nilsson a few years back. (In <span class="caps">RRPE</span>, so John Q. won&#8217;t want to read it, but others may find it interesting.)</p>
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		<title>By: lemuel pitkin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/15/crowdsourcing-works/comment-page-1/#comment-252022</link>
		<dc:creator>lemuel pitkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 17:04:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7771#comment-252022</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;there’s a view that the retail price index overstates inflation because of hard-to rate quality improvements&lt;/i&gt;

There&#039;s also an argument that it *understates* inflation, since in general it does not factor in quality decreases at all, even where they are arguably rather important, e.g. retail (big box = lower prices, worse service/convenince) and air travel. A few years ago there were some very strong arguments by people like Robert Gordon and Dean Baker that quality improvements in computers were being exaggerated, again resulting in understated inflation, because the hedonic pricing model used assumed that consumers were paying for e.g. memory and chip speed rather than functionality. Dunno what the status of that debate is, but in general, one should definitely not assume that errors in measuring quality change will be in only one direction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>there&#8217;s a view that the retail price index overstates inflation because of hard-to rate quality improvements</i></p>

	<p>There&#8217;s also an argument that it <strong>understates</strong> inflation, since in general it does not factor in quality decreases at all, even where they are arguably rather important, e.g. retail (big box = lower prices, worse service/convenince) and air travel. A few years ago there were some very strong arguments by people like Robert Gordon and Dean Baker that quality improvements in computers were being exaggerated, again resulting in understated inflation, because the hedonic pricing model used assumed that consumers were paying for e.g. memory and chip speed rather than functionality. Dunno what the status of that debate is, but in general, one should definitely not assume that errors in measuring quality change will be in only one direction.</p>
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		<title>By: James Wimberley</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/15/crowdsourcing-works/comment-page-1/#comment-252010</link>
		<dc:creator>James Wimberley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 14:49:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7771#comment-252010</guid>
		<description>Er, there&#039;s a view that the retail price index overstates inflation because of hard-to rate quality improvements (new gadgets, reliability). Couldn&#039;t there be a gap with the GDP deflator, since experts are more likely to agree on quality in capital goods, even rapidly changing ones  like routers and optical fibre cables?  This doesn&#039;t affect your question or Schaeffer&#039;s answer, but it makes a (modest) difference once you start interpreting  income in welfare terms.
Lipstick/pig fans: please discuss elsewhere. My pennyworth  &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.samefacts.com/archives/palin_/2008/09/the_pit_bull.php&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Er, there&#8217;s a view that the retail price index overstates inflation because of hard-to rate quality improvements (new gadgets, reliability). Couldn&#8217;t there be a gap with the <span class="caps">GDP</span> deflator, since experts are more likely to agree on quality in capital goods, even rapidly changing ones  like routers and optical fibre cables?  This doesn&#8217;t affect your question or Schaeffer&#8217;s answer, but it makes a (modest) difference once you start interpreting  income in welfare terms.<br />
Lipstick/pig fans: please discuss elsewhere. My pennyworth  <a href="http://www.samefacts.com/archives/palin_/2008/09/the_pit_bull.php" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: mpowell</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/15/crowdsourcing-works/comment-page-1/#comment-252006</link>
		<dc:creator>mpowell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 14:14:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7771#comment-252006</guid>
		<description>1: The hysteria/accusation is indeed absurd, as would be clear to anyone with a half a brain.  But that could be a problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>1: The hysteria/accusation is indeed absurd, as would be clear to anyone with a half a brain.  But that could be a problem.</p>
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		<title>By: Joel Turnipseed</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/15/crowdsourcing-works/comment-page-1/#comment-252003</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel Turnipseed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 13:42:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7771#comment-252003</guid>
		<description>I just want to reiterate Obama&#039;s denial-related clarification: if he &lt;em&gt;had&lt;/em&gt; been referring to Palin in that remark, he would have been, technically-speaking, referring to Palin as the lipstick and McCain as the pig.

Which, you know, [cough] far, far from the truth of the matter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I just want to reiterate Obama&#8217;s denial-related clarification: if he <em>had</em> been referring to Palin in that remark, he would have been, technically-speaking, referring to Palin as the lipstick and McCain as the pig.</p>

	<p>Which, you know, [cough] far, far from the truth of the matter.</p>
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