<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: What&#8217;s so great about the family anyway?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/16/whats-so-great-about-the-family-anyway/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/16/whats-so-great-about-the-family-anyway/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 13:55:47 -0800</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: Hattie</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/16/whats-so-great-about-the-family-anyway/comment-page-1/#comment-252715</link>
		<dc:creator>Hattie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Sep 2008 03:20:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7788#comment-252715</guid>
		<description>The religious right is trying to hijack  the issue of family. The essentialists talk a lot about apes. No one talks about love.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The religious right is trying to hijack  the issue of family. The essentialists talk a lot about apes. No one talks about love.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tracy W</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/16/whats-so-great-about-the-family-anyway/comment-page-1/#comment-252495</link>
		<dc:creator>Tracy W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 14:56:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7788#comment-252495</guid>
		<description>Duh, that&#039;s right, you told me that book. I&#039;ll have a look for it. The one thing I really miss about NZ is the Wellington Public Library.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Duh, that&#8217;s right, you told me that book. I&#8217;ll have a look for it. The one thing I really miss about NZ is the Wellington Public Library.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tracy W</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/16/whats-so-great-about-the-family-anyway/comment-page-1/#comment-252494</link>
		<dc:creator>Tracy W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 14:46:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7788#comment-252494</guid>
		<description>Harry B - thank you for explaining your answer. I am convinced by you that coding behaviour must be difficult - I am not an expert on the design of such studies but I am aware from my statistics studies that observer bias is a problem - which is why double-blind studies are the gold standard.  This is why I think the Holt adoption study is a useful addition to the studies Judith Harris combines - income is less subject to coding problems than most forms of behaviour. 

So now we are back to my original question - what evidence do you have that parents do tend to transmit their advantage to their children by the mechanisms you list? Judith Harris presents evidence that &quot;parenting styles&quot; and &quot;values transmission/ambition formation&quot; has very little impact once genetics is controlled for, I am curious as to what your evidence is that they are indeed mechanisms.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Harry B &#8211; thank you for explaining your answer. I am convinced by you that coding behaviour must be difficult &#8211; I am not an expert on the design of such studies but I am aware from my statistics studies that observer bias is a problem &#8211; which is why double-blind studies are the gold standard.  This is why I think the Holt adoption study is a useful addition to the studies Judith Harris combines &#8211; income is less subject to coding problems than most forms of behaviour.</p>

	<p>So now we are back to my original question &#8211; what evidence do you have that parents do tend to transmit their advantage to their children by the mechanisms you list? Judith Harris presents evidence that &#8220;parenting styles&#8221; and &#8220;values transmission/ambition formation&#8221; has very little impact once genetics is controlled for, I am curious as to what your evidence is that they are indeed mechanisms.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: harry b</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/16/whats-so-great-about-the-family-anyway/comment-page-1/#comment-252353</link>
		<dc:creator>harry b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 17:03:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7788#comment-252353</guid>
		<description>Good, that&#039;s helpful. I, too, am disadvantaged by not having any of the three copies I have bought over the years in my possession. As I say, I read it years ago, and have been puzzled. Without reading the studied cited I should refrain from this, but in similarly designed studies I am always a bit puzzled by the confidence people have in their ability to observe behaviour (having once challenged some coding of a study in progress and been bemused by the absence of a rationale for it).  This is a different response to your previous one; I apologise for my snarky final sentence in 20 (I plead early morning hurry with a lousy internet connection).  I&#039;m glad we agree on the fundamental methodological point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Good, that&#8217;s helpful. I, too, am disadvantaged by not having any of the three copies I have bought over the years in my possession. As I say, I read it years ago, and have been puzzled. Without reading the studied cited I should refrain from this, but in similarly designed studies I am always a bit puzzled by the confidence people have in their ability to observe behaviour (having once challenged some coding of a study in progress and been bemused by the absence of a rationale for it).  This is a different response to your previous one; I apologise for my snarky final sentence in 20 (I plead early morning hurry with a lousy internet connection).  I&#8217;m glad we agree on the fundamental methodological point.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tracy W</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/16/whats-so-great-about-the-family-anyway/comment-page-1/#comment-252345</link>
		<dc:creator>Tracy W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 15:51:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7788#comment-252345</guid>
		<description>Harry B - so there is no need to make assumptions about motivation in order to be able to do a basic correlation study? Please let me know on this one if I am wrong, and again, if I do need to relearn statistics, I would really appreciate it if you could point me in the direction of a textbook or a teacher, or something. 

As for your main argument, I do not have a copy of The Nuture Assumption at the moment, that book shares with Gun Germs and Steel the feature of compulsive lending, so I cannot check your claim that Judith Harris does not use direct information about parenting styles. However Judith Harris has published some articles online.  In http://home.att.net/~xchar/tna/devpsyjh.htm, she looks at studies on intervention effects. 
From that study:
&quot;A study that meets all the criteria for an experimental test of my prediction was carried out recently by Forgatch and DeGarmo (1999). There was a control group, the intervention occurred only at home, and the children&#039;s behavior was assessed both at home and at school. Ratings at school were made by teachers who were blind to the children&#039;s experimental group assignment. But, &quot;contrary to expectations&quot; (p. 718), the researchers found no differences between the teachers&#039; postintervention ratings of children in the intervention and control groups. &quot;

So in this case there was a purposeful change in parenting behaviour, which had an impact at home, but not at school. 
And in a summary of more general research:
&quot; Similar conclusions have been reached in regard to programs designed to improve the school adjustment and academic performance of children living in poverty: &quot;There is little evidence that parenting programs produce the hoped-for linkage between changed parent behaviors and improved child outcomes&quot; (St.Pierre &amp; Layzer, 1998, p. 7; see also White, Taylor, &amp; Moss, 1992; Zaslow, Tout, Smith, &amp; Moore, 1998).&quot; 

If parenting styles affected children&#039;s success in life, then changing parenting styles should show some impact in terms of behaviour at school. 

And she cites another study on parent behaviour and child (well teenage) behaviour:
&quot; Reiss and his colleagues studied 720 pairs of same-sex adolescent siblings (identical and fraternal twins and full, half and stepsiblings) over a 3-year period, from early to mid-adolescence. The adolescents&#039; behavior and adjustment, and the behavior of their parents, were judged by observers, the parents, and the adolescents themselves; these multiple sources of information were combined to produce measures of unusual reliability.
Reiss has confessed that he was &quot;shocked&quot; by the results of his study (Paul, 1998, p. 46). The results are indeed shocking to believers in the nurture assumption (and Reiss, in spite of everything, remains a believer). Virtually all correlations between parental behaviors and child outcomes were accounted for by genetic factors. The parents did indeed treat their children differently but they were reacting to genetic differences among the children, rather than causing the differences.&quot;

So Judith Harris does have at her fingertips studies of parental *behaviour*, not just parental personality. From my vague memory, she included these or similar studies in The Nurture Assumption as well, but my memory is of course unreliable.  And I can hardly expect you to prove a negative. But if Judith Harris did include these studies that would explain why she didn&#039;t make the assumption you mentioned explicit - she didn&#039;t need to make your assumption at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Harry B &#8211; so there is no need to make assumptions about motivation in order to be able to do a basic correlation study? Please let me know on this one if I am wrong, and again, if I do need to relearn statistics, I would really appreciate it if you could point me in the direction of a textbook or a teacher, or something.</p>

	<p>As for your main argument, I do not have a copy of The Nuture Assumption at the moment, that book shares with Gun Germs and Steel the feature of compulsive lending, so I cannot check your claim that Judith Harris does not use direct information about parenting styles. However Judith Harris has published some articles online.  In <a href="http://home.att.net/~xchar/tna/devpsyjh.htm" rel="nofollow">http://home.att.net/~xchar/tna/devpsyjh.htm</a>, she looks at studies on intervention effects.<br />
From that study:<br />
&#8220;A study that meets all the criteria for an experimental test of my prediction was carried out recently by Forgatch and DeGarmo (1999). There was a control group, the intervention occurred only at home, and the children&#8217;s behavior was assessed both at home and at school. Ratings at school were made by teachers who were blind to the children&#8217;s experimental group assignment. But, &#8220;contrary to expectations&#8221; (p. 718), the researchers found no differences between the teachers&#8217; postintervention ratings of children in the intervention and control groups. &#8221;</p>

	<p>So in this case there was a purposeful change in parenting behaviour, which had an impact at home, but not at school.<br />
And in a summary of more general research:<br />
&#8221; Similar conclusions have been reached in regard to programs designed to improve the school adjustment and academic performance of children living in poverty: &#8220;There is little evidence that parenting programs produce the hoped-for linkage between changed parent behaviors and improved child outcomes&#8221; (St.Pierre &#038; Layzer, 1998, p. 7; see also White, Taylor, &#038; Moss, 1992; Zaslow, Tout, Smith, &#038; Moore, 1998).&#8221;</p>

	<p>If parenting styles affected children&#8217;s success in life, then changing parenting styles should show some impact in terms of behaviour at school.</p>

	<p>And she cites another study on parent behaviour and child (well teenage) behaviour:<br />
&#8221; Reiss and his colleagues studied 720 pairs of same-sex adolescent siblings (identical and fraternal twins and full, half and stepsiblings) over a 3-year period, from early to mid-adolescence. The adolescents&#8217; behavior and adjustment, and the behavior of their parents, were judged by observers, the parents, and the adolescents themselves; these multiple sources of information were combined to produce measures of unusual reliability.<br />
Reiss has confessed that he was &#8220;shocked&#8221; by the results of his study (Paul, 1998, p. 46). The results are indeed shocking to believers in the nurture assumption (and Reiss, in spite of everything, remains a believer). Virtually all correlations between parental behaviors and child outcomes were accounted for by genetic factors. The parents did indeed treat their children differently but they were reacting to genetic differences among the children, rather than causing the differences.&#8221;</p>

	<p>So Judith Harris does have at her fingertips studies of parental <strong>behaviour</strong>, not just parental personality. From my vague memory, she included these or similar studies in The Nurture Assumption as well, but my memory is of course unreliable.  And I can hardly expect you to prove a negative. But if Judith Harris did include these studies that would explain why she didn&#8217;t make the assumption you mentioned explicit &#8211; she didn&#8217;t need to make your assumption at all.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Harry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/16/whats-so-great-about-the-family-anyway/comment-page-1/#comment-252323</link>
		<dc:creator>Harry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 11:43:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7788#comment-252323</guid>
		<description>It just depends on what conclusions you want to draw from the studies, Tracy. And as I say, if Harris were drawing conclusions from studies of  the correlation between parenting styles and personality traits of children there&#039;d be no need for assumptions about aims. But she is drawing conclusions about parenting styles from correlations between parental traits and children&#039;s traits, without any direct information about parenting styles. I don&#039;t see how that works without making assumptions about the aims of parents. But of course if you could explain to me how, that would be great.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It just depends on what conclusions you want to draw from the studies, Tracy. And as I say, if Harris were drawing conclusions from studies of  the correlation between parenting styles and personality traits of children there&#8217;d be no need for assumptions about aims. But she is drawing conclusions about parenting styles from correlations between parental traits and children&#8217;s traits, without any direct information about parenting styles. I don&#8217;t see how that works without making assumptions about the aims of parents. But of course if you could explain to me how, that would be great.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tracy W</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/16/whats-so-great-about-the-family-anyway/comment-page-1/#comment-252321</link>
		<dc:creator>Tracy W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 11:20:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7788#comment-252321</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;If you assume that no correlation after controlling for genetic effects allows you to say that parenting styles have no effects, then you do, indeed, have to make an assumption about the aims of parents.&lt;/i&gt;

So you are saying that, say, in a hypothetical world where lazy, relaxed parents unintentionally produced over-anxious, anal-retentive children, (maybe because the children overcompensated for their parents&#039; laidback attitudes, and carried this attitude on into adult life), this would not show up in correlation studies, as the parents did not mean to pass on their personality traits?  

While my interest in the topic immediately under discussion is only personal, I do deal with correlations a lot in my professional life, and this idea is sending chills down my spine that I have been doing it all wrong for years and years. I need to know when and where I have to make assumptions about the motivations of people in order to be able to draw the conclusion that no correlation implies no causation. And also I need to know what sort of assumptions need to be made. I am really really surprised and distressed that none of my statistics teachers or lecturers bothered to mention such a fundamental problem with correlation studies.  Can you please provide the name of a handbook about how to do this? Or a teacher in this subject?   

I am also extremely curious about the mathematics behind this result. We of course studied the correlation formulae, and least-squares regression models, and etc, in class, and I don&#039;t recall anything in that that was at all dependent on the motivation of whatever correlation you were studying.  I do love counter-intuitive mathematical proofs for their own sake - can you please provide a link or a reference to the proof that such motivations must be taken into account when doing correlations?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>If you assume that no correlation after controlling for genetic effects allows you to say that parenting styles have no effects, then you do, indeed, have to make an assumption about the aims of parents.</i></p>

	<p>So you are saying that, say, in a hypothetical world where lazy, relaxed parents unintentionally produced over-anxious, anal-retentive children, (maybe because the children overcompensated for their parents&#8217; laidback attitudes, and carried this attitude on into adult life), this would not show up in correlation studies, as the parents did not mean to pass on their personality traits?</p>

	<p>While my interest in the topic immediately under discussion is only personal, I do deal with correlations a lot in my professional life, and this idea is sending chills down my spine that I have been doing it all wrong for years and years. I need to know when and where I have to make assumptions about the motivations of people in order to be able to draw the conclusion that no correlation implies no causation. And also I need to know what sort of assumptions need to be made. I am really really surprised and distressed that none of my statistics teachers or lecturers bothered to mention such a fundamental problem with correlation studies.  Can you please provide the name of a handbook about how to do this? Or a teacher in this subject?</p>

	<p>I am also extremely curious about the mathematics behind this result. We of course studied the correlation formulae, and least-squares regression models, and etc, in class, and I don&#8217;t recall anything in that that was at all dependent on the motivation of whatever correlation you were studying.  I do love counter-intuitive mathematical proofs for their own sake &#8211; can you please provide a link or a reference to the proof that such motivations must be taken into account when doing correlations?</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: harry b</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/16/whats-so-great-about-the-family-anyway/comment-page-1/#comment-252245</link>
		<dc:creator>harry b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 17:46:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7788#comment-252245</guid>
		<description>Lindsey -- ok, sometime.

Tracy W -- yes, a good deal of that literature does, in different ways. Some doesn&#039;t. All of it, by the way, is sceptical that bequest plays much role. As to Harris -- well she doesn&#039;t actually have any data about parenting styles (that&#039;s not what her studies are about). She looks for correlation between personality traits of parents and those of children. If you assume that no correlation after controlling for genetic effects allows you to say that parenting styles have no effects, then you do, indeed, have to make an assumption about the aims of parents. Its a long time since I read Harris, and maybe she doesn&#039;t claim that parenting styles have no effects, in which case there is no need to make the assumption, but what she says has no bearing on the effects of parenting styles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Lindsey&#8212;ok, sometime.</p>

	<p>Tracy W&#8212;yes, a good deal of that literature does, in different ways. Some doesn&#8217;t. All of it, by the way, is sceptical that bequest plays much role. As to Harris&#8212;well she doesn&#8217;t actually have any data about parenting styles (that&#8217;s not what her studies are about). She looks for correlation between personality traits of parents and those of children. If you assume that no correlation after controlling for genetic effects allows you to say that parenting styles have no effects, then you do, indeed, have to make an assumption about the aims of parents. Its a long time since I read Harris, and maybe she doesn&#8217;t claim that parenting styles have no effects, in which case there is no need to make the assumption, but what she says has no bearing on the effects of parenting styles.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: lindsey</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/16/whats-so-great-about-the-family-anyway/comment-page-1/#comment-252239</link>
		<dc:creator>lindsey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 16:56:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7788#comment-252239</guid>
		<description>Harry, I want you to post about parental licensing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Harry, I want you to post about parental licensing.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tracy W</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/16/whats-so-great-about-the-family-anyway/comment-page-1/#comment-252213</link>
		<dc:creator>Tracy W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 15:05:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7788#comment-252213</guid>
		<description>Harry, what reading The Nuture Assumption does, and adoption studies like the Korean one, is call into question every piece of research relating children&#039;s outcomes to parental behaviour that doesn&#039;t control for the genetic relationship between most parents and their children. Does the Bowles, Gintis, and Osborne Groves literature control for the genetic influence?

As for _The Nuture Assumption_, I don&#039;t know why you think the assumption you describe is relevant to the results Judith Harris describes. Correlation studies are independent of theories about motivation -  the high rate of haemophilia amongst Queen Victoria&#039;s descendents is &lt;b&gt;not&lt;/b&gt; evidence that Queen Victoria tried to create haemophilic descendents.  If parenting styles had a consistent effect on children&#039;s personality traits that should show up in correlation studies regardless of the parents&#039; motivations.   
I suspect the reason Judith Harris never made such an assumption as you describe explicit is that she never made such an assumption at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Harry, what reading The Nuture Assumption does, and adoption studies like the Korean one, is call into question every piece of research relating children&#8217;s outcomes to parental behaviour that doesn&#8217;t control for the genetic relationship between most parents and their children. Does the Bowles, Gintis, and Osborne Groves literature control for the genetic influence?</p>

	<p>As for <em>The Nuture Assumption</em>, I don&#8217;t know why you think the assumption you describe is relevant to the results Judith Harris describes. Correlation studies are independent of theories about motivation &#8211;  the high rate of haemophilia amongst Queen Victoria&#8217;s descendents is <b>not</b> evidence that Queen Victoria tried to create haemophilic descendents.  If parenting styles had a consistent effect on children&#8217;s personality traits that should show up in correlation studies regardless of the parents&#8217; motivations.<br />
I suspect the reason Judith Harris never made such an assumption as you describe explicit is that she never made such an assumption at all.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Harry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/16/whats-so-great-about-the-family-anyway/comment-page-1/#comment-252197</link>
		<dc:creator>Harry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 12:14:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7788#comment-252197</guid>
		<description>Tracy W -- that is a (common) misreading of Harris. The outcomes she considers (being a psychologist) are personality traits. Her data (or the data in the studies she studies), furthermore, concerns correlations of parental personality traits and child personality traits; the assumption being that parents are trying to replicate their own traits (this may be a good empirical assumption for all I know, but I don&#039;t know any parents who do that, and she not only gives no grounds for thinking that they do but never makes the assumption explicit).  Have a look at the papers in Bowles, Gintis, and Osborne Groves (eds), Unequal Chances, and trail back the literature from there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Tracy W&#8212;that is a (common) misreading of Harris. The outcomes she considers (being a psychologist) are personality traits. Her data (or the data in the studies she studies), furthermore, concerns correlations of parental personality traits and child personality traits; the assumption being that parents are trying to replicate their own traits (this may be a good empirical assumption for all I know, but I don&#8217;t know any parents who do that, and she not only gives no grounds for thinking that they do but never makes the assumption explicit).  Have a look at the papers in Bowles, Gintis, and Osborne Groves (eds), Unequal Chances, and trail back the literature from there.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Lex</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/16/whats-so-great-about-the-family-anyway/comment-page-1/#comment-252190</link>
		<dc:creator>Lex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 10:42:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7788#comment-252190</guid>
		<description>@13: yes, indeed, and that is so bleedin&#039; obvious as not to merit discussion, surely? Whereas any contention that one might go further, implied and explicitly raised in various posts above, is just silly. There&#039;s always &quot;someone&quot; who needs their kids &quot;taking away&quot;, but we&#039;ll never reach a situation where that &quot;someone&quot; is &quot;us&quot;, mr and ms average voter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>@13: yes, indeed, and that is so bleedin&#8217; obvious as not to merit discussion, surely? Whereas any contention that one might go further, implied and explicitly raised in various posts above, is just silly. There&#8217;s always &#8220;someone&#8221; who needs their kids &#8220;taking away&#8221;, but we&#8217;ll never reach a situation where that &#8220;someone&#8221; is &#8220;us&#8221;, mr and ms average voter.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Chris Bertram</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/16/whats-so-great-about-the-family-anyway/comment-page-1/#comment-252189</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Bertram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 10:25:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7788#comment-252189</guid>
		<description>#12 Wrong question.  The right question is, &quot;is anyone here ... willing to agree to a law that gives social workers the right to take control of children away from parents under some circumstances.&quot; The (only sane) answer to that question (in practice not &quot;in theory&quot;)  is &quot;yes&quot;, where those circumstances include gross cruelty, neglect, abuse etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>#12 Wrong question.  The right question is, &#8220;is anyone here &#8230; willing to agree to a law that gives social workers the right to take control of children away from parents under some circumstances.&#8221; The (only sane) answer to that question (in practice not &#8220;in theory&#8221;)  is &#8220;yes&#8221;, where those circumstances include gross cruelty, neglect, abuse etc.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Lex</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/16/whats-so-great-about-the-family-anyway/comment-page-1/#comment-252186</link>
		<dc:creator>Lex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 10:07:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7788#comment-252186</guid>
		<description>Telling people they don&#039;t &quot;own&quot; their kids is all very well in theory, but is anyone here who actually &lt;i&gt;has&lt;/i&gt; children prepared to yield control [and, implicitly, access] to social workers and &quot;networks&quot; - whatever that means??</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Telling people they don&#8217;t &#8220;own&#8221; their kids is all very well in theory, but is anyone here who actually <i>has</i> children prepared to yield control [and, implicitly, access] to social workers and &#8220;networks&#8221; &#8211; whatever that means??</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: A. Y. Mous</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/09/16/whats-so-great-about-the-family-anyway/comment-page-1/#comment-252182</link>
		<dc:creator>A. Y. Mous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 09:09:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7788#comment-252182</guid>
		<description>Wealth, learning, love and affection can be had anywhere from anyone. Family is a contract without an exit clause. Family ensures security of relationships. You can&#039;t divorce your parents/children.

Which leads me to your question on why yours is  Western, modern, Eurocentric, and Christian (or for that matter even Northern Euro-centric, 17th century, and Lutheran). It is because family being defined with &quot;man and woman&quot; as the centerpiece, is all that. Elsewhere in the world, family is a genetic identification with a plurality of individuals (patriarchal or matriarchal or both) and joint prima facie claim on all available resources enjoyed by them. Uncles and cousins taking full charge and bequething the whole lot to children without parents is not only not rare, it is extremely common.

Also, no biological/genetic imperatives to ensure immortality (and hence, the overly loving importance of grand-parents/children)?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Wealth, learning, love and affection can be had anywhere from anyone. Family is a contract without an exit clause. Family ensures security of relationships. You can&#8217;t divorce your parents/children.</p>

	<p>Which leads me to your question on why yours is  Western, modern, Eurocentric, and Christian (or for that matter even Northern Euro-centric, 17th century, and Lutheran). It is because family being defined with &#8220;man and woman&#8221; as the centerpiece, is all that. Elsewhere in the world, family is a genetic identification with a plurality of individuals (patriarchal or matriarchal or both) and joint prima facie claim on all available resources enjoyed by them. Uncles and cousins taking full charge and bequething the whole lot to children without parents is not only not rare, it is extremely common.</p>

	<p>Also, no biological/genetic imperatives to ensure immortality (and hence, the overly loving importance of grand-parents/children)?</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
