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	<title>Comments on: Irony</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/05/irony-2/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: nnyhav</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/05/irony-2/comment-page-1/#comment-254713</link>
		<dc:creator>nnyhav</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 00:04:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7981#comment-254713</guid>
		<description>WSJ: 
Wednesday op-ed: 
&quot;The GOP Peddles Economic Snake Oil&quot; Thomas Frank, staff writer
Thurs op-eds: 
1) &quot;Good Financial Information Matters More Than Ever&quot;, Robert Shiller (&quot;From John Moody to Suze Orman, financial writers deserve our thanks&quot;)
2) &quot;News Flash: The Media Back Obama&quot;, Dorothy Rabinowitz (WSJ ed board)

side note: dsquared from CT to FT: quoted in &quot;Well-established banks best placed to reap rewards&quot;:  &quot;daniel Davies, analyst at Credit Suisse, says: &#039;[The winners are] those who have never needed capital or those who raised it early. There are going to be national champions.&#039;&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><span class="caps">WSJ</span>:<br />
Wednesday op-ed:<br />
&#8220;The <span class="caps">GOP </span>Peddles Economic Snake Oil&#8221; Thomas Frank, staff writer<br />
Thurs op-eds:<br />
1) &#8220;Good Financial Information Matters More Than Ever&#8221;, Robert Shiller (&#8220;From John Moody to Suze Orman, financial writers deserve our thanks&#8221;)<br />
2) &#8220;News Flash: The Media Back Obama&#8221;, Dorothy Rabinowitz (WSJ ed board)</p>

	<p>side note: dsquared from CT to FT: quoted in &#8220;Well-established banks best placed to reap rewards&#8221;:  &#8220;daniel Davies, analyst at Credit Suisse, says: &#8216;[The winners are] those who have never needed capital or those who raised it early. There are going to be national champions.&#8217;&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: poemless</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/05/irony-2/comment-page-1/#comment-254496</link>
		<dc:creator>poemless</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 16:22:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7981#comment-254496</guid>
		<description>More historical irony:

Edward Lucas is urging small countries in Eastern Europe to write up legislation allowing them to nationalize their banks before they crash and Russia tries to buy them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>More historical irony:</p>

	<p>Edward Lucas is urging small countries in Eastern Europe to write up legislation allowing them to nationalize their banks before they crash and Russia tries to buy them.</p>
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		<title>By: terence</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/05/irony-2/comment-page-1/#comment-254462</link>
		<dc:creator>terence</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 01:49:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7981#comment-254462</guid>
		<description>...well there has been one positive spin off of the crisis, John: we got to hear you on New Zealand National Radio this morning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8230;well there has been one positive spin off of the crisis, John: we got to hear you on New Zealand National Radio this morning.</p>
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		<title>By: novakant</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/05/irony-2/comment-page-1/#comment-254432</link>
		<dc:creator>novakant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2008 15:15:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7981#comment-254432</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;The thing is, though, the people in the class below Judith Warner are going to be hit much harder, if it turns into a real depression or something worse. You can always go lower until the role for you is “corpse”.&lt;/i&gt;

And even those people will be fine compared to, say, AIDS orphans in South Africa, Palestinians living in the Gaza strip, slave workers in China, Brazil or wherever - so if somebody wrote an article about the problems facing blue collar workers in the US, should they be accused of having ignored the existence who are even worse off?  I read Warner&#039;s article as an account of her personal situation and that of her peers and find the implication that she is generally unaware of other people&#039;s suffering to be unwarranted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>The thing is, though, the people in the class below Judith Warner are going to be hit much harder, if it turns into a real depression or something worse. You can always go lower until the role for you is &#8220;corpse&#8221;.</i></p>

	<p>And even those people will be fine compared to, say, <span class="caps">AIDS</span> orphans in South Africa, Palestinians living in the Gaza strip, slave workers in China, Brazil or wherever &#8211; so if somebody wrote an article about the problems facing blue collar workers in the US, should they be accused of having ignored the existence who are even worse off?  I read Warner&#8217;s article as an account of her personal situation and that of her peers and find the implication that she is generally unaware of other people&#8217;s suffering to be unwarranted.</p>
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		<title>By: lolmart employee</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/05/irony-2/comment-page-1/#comment-254431</link>
		<dc:creator>lolmart employee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2008 15:09:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7981#comment-254431</guid>
		<description>My set is largely composed of twenty somethings foot-draggin&#039; in a middling city with an enormous university, and the shitjobs we work and the shitbars we frequent will more than likely persist.  Many of my peers are probably more concerned by the diminishing frequency of the affordability of an eightball than any notion of economic irony or karmic retribution.

We are willfully marginal, and we can survive so long as at least half of our friends can make rent.  This is probably just the nail in the coffin of any thoughts of repayment on our student loans.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>My set is largely composed of twenty somethings foot-draggin&#8217; in a middling city with an enormous university, and the shitjobs we work and the shitbars we frequent will more than likely persist.  Many of my peers are probably more concerned by the diminishing frequency of the affordability of an eightball than any notion of economic irony or karmic retribution.</p>

	<p>We are willfully marginal, and we can survive so long as at least half of our friends can make rent.  This is probably just the nail in the coffin of any thoughts of repayment on our student loans.</p>
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		<title>By: Walt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/05/irony-2/comment-page-1/#comment-254430</link>
		<dc:creator>Walt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2008 14:59:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7981#comment-254430</guid>
		<description>That kind of talk is un-American, engels.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>That kind of talk is un-American, engels.</p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/05/irony-2/comment-page-1/#comment-254429</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2008 13:08:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7981#comment-254429</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;You can always go lower until the role for you is “corpse”.&lt;/i&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>You can always go lower until the role for you is &#8220;corpse&#8221;.</i></p>

	<p><blockquote>But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.</blockquote></p>
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		<title>By: MarkUp</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/05/irony-2/comment-page-1/#comment-254427</link>
		<dc:creator>MarkUp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2008 13:01:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7981#comment-254427</guid>
		<description>&quot;I’m tending to believe that skills will always have value. And I think this is something people can take reassurance from;&quot;

Value is not bound to merit, nor is it&#039;s worth always shared.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;I&#8217;m tending to believe that skills will always have value. And I think this is something people can take reassurance from;&#8221;</p>

	<p>Value is not bound to merit, nor is it&#8217;s worth always shared.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/05/irony-2/comment-page-1/#comment-254425</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2008 09:43:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7981#comment-254425</guid>
		<description>Sorry, that was harsher than I might have wanted. But since I find it hard to imagine any form of society which doesn&#039;t have instrumental knowledge as a fundamental - a way of life based on picking fruit from trees excepted, perhaps - I&#039;m tending to believe that skills will always have value. And I think this is something people can take reassurance from; and also something useful to keep in mind when there&#039;s other people out there saying that it&#039;ll all go to shit unless we do exactly what they say.

I realise also that any talk along these lines will be coloured by the unpleasant political rhetoric of the last twenty years or so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Sorry, that was harsher than I might have wanted. But since I find it hard to imagine any form of society which doesn&#8217;t have instrumental knowledge as a fundamental &#8211; a way of life based on picking fruit from trees excepted, perhaps &#8211; I&#8217;m tending to believe that skills will always have value. And I think this is something people can take reassurance from; and also something useful to keep in mind when there&#8217;s other people out there saying that it&#8217;ll all go to shit unless we do exactly what they say.</p>

	<p>I realise also that any talk along these lines will be coloured by the unpleasant political rhetoric of the last twenty years or so.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/05/irony-2/comment-page-1/#comment-254424</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2008 09:20:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7981#comment-254424</guid>
		<description>I remember that, during the ABN-AMRO takeover soap opera, there were people who said that their shareholders would never be satisfied with stock in a bank as boring and staid as Fortis...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I remember that, during the <span class="caps">ABN</span>-AMRO takeover soap opera, there were people who said that their shareholders would never be satisfied with stock in a bank as boring and staid as Fortis&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: clew</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/05/irony-2/comment-page-1/#comment-254419</link>
		<dc:creator>clew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2008 02:35:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7981#comment-254419</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt; if you’re good at something, there’ll continue to be a role for you. &lt;/i&gt;

Once I built a railroad, made it run... Brother, can you spare a dime?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i> if you&#8217;re good at something, there&#8217;ll continue to be a role for you. </i></p>

	<p>Once I built a railroad, made it run&#8230; Brother, can you spare a dime?</p>
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		<title>By: Matt McIrvin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/05/irony-2/comment-page-1/#comment-254416</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt McIrvin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Oct 2008 21:04:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7981#comment-254416</guid>
		<description>The thing is, though, the people in the class below Judith Warner are going to be hit much harder, if it turns into a real depression or something worse.  You can always go lower until the role for you is &quot;corpse&quot;.

I confess I&#039;ve never felt that loser-feeling she got from being around the Masters of the Universe.  I remember when my fellow physics grad students were all becoming Wall Street quants in the late 90s, thinking mostly that they were being played for chumps.  But I don&#039;t live in New York.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The thing is, though, the people in the class below Judith Warner are going to be hit much harder, if it turns into a real depression or something worse.  You can always go lower until the role for you is &#8220;corpse&#8221;.</p>

	<p>I confess I&#8217;ve never felt that loser-feeling she got from being around the Masters of the Universe.  I remember when my fellow physics grad students were all becoming Wall Street quants in the late 90s, thinking mostly that they were being played for chumps.  But I don&#8217;t live in New York.</p>
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		<title>By: Roy Belmont</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/05/irony-2/comment-page-1/#comment-254413</link>
		<dc:creator>Roy Belmont</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Oct 2008 19:27:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7981#comment-254413</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;if you’re good at something, there’ll continue to be a role for you.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;
Unless you&#039;re retired, and old enough that things are starting to slow down, and you&#039;re confronting the inevitable at the same time your financial nut turns into useless paper. Now you can just reconcile yourself to gruel and porridge three times a day at the refectory table down at the poor house, along with most of the rest of your contemporaries. Except there aren&#039;t even poor houses anymore.
Possibly why cocaine and heroin use among the elderly is increasing.
There isn&#039;t much qualitative difference between losing the private jet and losing the Escalade, is there? They&#039;re both no more than status markers, both hanging like medallions around the necks of the ensorcelled, bling in a bad rap video.
Compassion for the despicable is a superior quality, it&#039;s the active version of not thrilling with &lt;i&gt;schadenfreude&lt;/i&gt; at the suffering of these wrong-living superdrones, as their card houses and Ponzi schemes come crashing back to earth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>&#8220;if you&#8217;re good at something, there&#8217;ll continue to be a role for you.&#8221;</i><br />
Unless you&#8217;re retired, and old enough that things are starting to slow down, and you&#8217;re confronting the inevitable at the same time your financial nut turns into useless paper. Now you can just reconcile yourself to gruel and porridge three times a day at the refectory table down at the poor house, along with most of the rest of your contemporaries. Except there aren&#8217;t even poor houses anymore.<br />
Possibly why cocaine and heroin use among the elderly is increasing.<br />
There isn&#8217;t much qualitative difference between losing the private jet and losing the Escalade, is there? They&#8217;re both no more than status markers, both hanging like medallions around the necks of the ensorcelled, bling in a bad rap video.<br />
Compassion for the despicable is a superior quality, it&#8217;s the active version of not thrilling with <i>schadenfreude</i> at the suffering of these wrong-living superdrones, as their card houses and Ponzi schemes come crashing back to earth.</p>
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		<title>By: mpowell</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/05/irony-2/comment-page-1/#comment-254411</link>
		<dc:creator>mpowell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Oct 2008 17:56:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7981#comment-254411</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s true that worse than being middle class is expending your life attempting to become super wealthy and then failing completely.  But losing your private jet does not rise to that level of failure.

It is clear that far greater regulation is needed in our financial sector.  But I also believe that for the health of our society, we need to find a way to stop rewarding the ultimately socially useless skills of the typical Wall Street jackass.  It is clear they don&#039;t provide much of anything of value, and the cultural implications are also corrupting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It&#8217;s true that worse than being middle class is expending your life attempting to become super wealthy and then failing completely.  But losing your private jet does not rise to that level of failure.</p>

	<p>It is clear that far greater regulation is needed in our financial sector.  But I also believe that for the health of our society, we need to find a way to stop rewarding the ultimately socially useless skills of the typical Wall Street jackass.  It is clear they don&#8217;t provide much of anything of value, and the cultural implications are also corrupting.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie Whitaker</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2008/10/05/irony-2/comment-page-1/#comment-254410</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie Whitaker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Oct 2008 17:47:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=7981#comment-254410</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know about schadenfreude, but I think a bit of fear around the place might be good. I certainly think we should encourage legislators to allow bankers to believe both (1) that their businesses might be allowed to fail, and (2) that there might be some serious rewriting of tax codes. Something has gotten out of whack in terms of perceptions.

Fear can leak out all over the place, of course. The only antidote I can think of is to remember that if you&#039;re good at something, there&#039;ll continue to be a role for you. Most people are good at something. The threat to accumulated pension funds, etc. is much harder to deal with, and I suspect it&#039;ll require political engagement the like of which hasn&#039;t been seen in a while.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I don&#8217;t know about schadenfreude, but I think a bit of fear around the place might be good. I certainly think we should encourage legislators to allow bankers to believe both (1) that their businesses might be allowed to fail, and (2) that there might be some serious rewriting of tax codes. Something has gotten out of whack in terms of perceptions.</p>

	<p>Fear can leak out all over the place, of course. The only antidote I can think of is to remember that if you&#8217;re good at something, there&#8217;ll continue to be a role for you. Most people are good at something. The threat to accumulated pension funds, etc. is much harder to deal with, and I suspect it&#8217;ll require political engagement the like of which hasn&#8217;t been seen in a while.</p>
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